Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
Message Icon Topic: Abrogation? Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 15 Next >>
Author Message
Chrysalis
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 November 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2008 at 1:46pm
 : "Ibn Umar Radhi Allahu `anhuma recited (surat ul baqarah 184) and said: This is mansookh"
 
Verse 184 of Surah Baqarah:
[Pickthal 2:184] (Fast) a certain number of days; and (for) him who is sick among you, or on a journey, (the same) number of other days; and for those who can afford it there is a ransom: the feeding of a man in need - but whoso doeth good of his own accord, it is better for him: and that ye fast is better for you if ye did but know" -
 
This is what I found in response:
 
Sahih Al-Bukhari, Hadith 6.34:
 
"Narrated Ata: That he heard Ibn `Abbas reciting the Divine Verse:-- ""And for those who can fast they had a choice either fast, or feed a poor for every day.."" (2.184) Ibn `Abbas said, ""This Verse is not abrogated, but it is meant for old men and old women who have no strength to fast, so they should feed one poor person for each day of fasting (instead of fasting)."
 
 
[Pickthal 17:36] "(O man), follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart - of each of these it will be asked."
 
As an unqualified person, it is all the more incumbent upon me to question what I am told . . . and verify it. The difference b/w Islam and 'clerical' religions is that, an average person does have a say in the matter.
 
Like Ron mentioned,
[Pickthal 2:106]" Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?"
 
This verse is referring to previous scriptures, i.e. Torah, Injeel, Zaboor. . . in the place of which Allah revealed the Qur'an, better and similar. . . and even for that Allah says 'nothing of our revelation do we abrogate'.
 
 
 


Edited by Chrysalis - 16 August 2008 at 2:15pm
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
IP IP Logged
Ron Webb
Male Humanism
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1737
Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2008 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by rami

Sister you as an unqualified person have no say in the matter, i am not presenting my personal views here but that of the madhhabs.
If "Islam for non-Muslins" is restricted to "qualified persons", maybe I should have posted my question in a different section.  I am very interested to hear as many personal views as possible, in addition to scholarly opinions.
 
I also didn't realize this was going to be a contentious question.  Abrogation is certainly used by anti-Muslims as the basis for all sorts of attacks against Islam, but I thought there would be a straightforward answer here.  I hope my question does not create hostility.
 
It would help me to understand if those who believe in abrogation would provide some specific examples.  What verses have been abrogated, and which "better" verses replace them?
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
IP IP Logged
Chrysalis
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 November 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2008 at 2:40pm
One of the examples of 'alleged' abrogations is Surah Baqarah, verse 184. I later edited my post to include it.
 
Verse 184 says that in expiation of missing a fast, a who can afford it, should feed a person in need, for every fast missed/or should make up a replacement fast. The verse mentions both the sick, and those on a journey.
 
Later in verse 185 :
[Pickthal 2:185] The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month, and whosoever of you is sick or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of other days. Allah desireth for you ease; He desireth not hardship for you; and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period, and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you, and that peradventure ye may be thankful.
 
Hence people suggest, that because the later verse speaks only of expiation by a replacement fast, and does not mention 'feeding a needy' . . . the previous verse is abrogated.
 
However, others (such as Ibn Abbas) are of the view (which I agree with) that the second verse is not an abrogation. And that the previous verse is still applicable to the elderly and sick - who are in a fragile state that does not allow them to make up fasts, even later. Thus, if they can afford it, they should feed the needy.
 
Despite talking about feeding the needy, Allah still says in Verse 184, that 'if ye fast is better for you if ye did but know' . . . it sets the grounds for the next verse, verse 185 that says 'let him fast the month'. Just because Allah did not repeat something He already mentioned in the previous verse (i.e. feeding the needy) does not mean that part got abrogated. And still applies to those who cannot fast at all.
 
Verse 185 ends by saying 'He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number'
 
Which means Allah wishes us to fast - yet does not desire difficulty on us.
 
Hence, as long as it is not a difficulty (i.e. person is not sick) , he should complete the number - rather than going for the first option of feeding the needy. But is the person has a difficulty, that Allah does not desire,  and cannot make up fasts - he should feed the poor.
 
What is abrogative about it?
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
IP IP Logged
Ron Webb
Male Humanism
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1737
Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2008 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by Chrysalis

Hence people suggest, that because the later verse speaks only of expiation by a replacement fast, and does not mention 'feeding a needy' . . . the previous verse is abrogated.
The previous verse??  I totally agree, it makes no sense whatsoever for Allah to reveal a verse and then change His mind, literally in the next breath! (assuming Allah breathes Smile)
 
I await other examples with interest...
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
IP IP Logged
minuteman
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 25 March 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1642
Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2008 at 5:12pm
 Ron you have said what I said long ago. We should observe the time difference between the revelation of the two verses 2:184 and 2:185. It may be only a few hours or a few days. How could it be possible that Allah would amend a verse so quickly.
 
 I also have some doubt about the order of revelation of the two verses. It is very likely that the verse 2:185 was revealed long before verse 2:184. But the prophet wisely put the latest verse before the older one. i.e. always obey the last order.  (I will then explain the meaning of things)
 
 So far, I have yet to see any abrogated verse in the Quran. Does it mean that there is only one (doubtful) abrogated verse in the Quran?  Surely not.
 
 I know very well from the writings of the scholars that some people had about 500 abrogated verses. Some others had about 150 verses. Nobody knew for certainity. Later as the matter became understood (after discussions), new scholars found that there were about 50 verses. The number was reduced to only 5 abrogated verses during the time of Shah Wali ullah Dehlavi. He was a great scholar of some repute and a Mujaddid (reformer) of the century (12th century).  (More soon, but please bring some abrogated verse here...)


Edited by minuteman - 16 August 2008 at 5:15pm
If any one is bad some one must suffer
IP IP Logged
minuteman
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 25 March 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1642
Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2008 at 5:28pm
 Even Maudoodi sahib believed in the abrogation. He suggested the abrogation of the part of verse 2:184 by verse 2:185. But later he realised that he would be in trouble about that abrogation (about believing in abrogation), he changed his wording and said that the order of expiation has been taken back in verse 2:185. That means he tried to avoid the word abrogation and said the facility has been taken back.
 
 That was all wrong too because it appeared that the verse 2:185 may have been revealed first i.e. before verse 2:184 and it was advised to Muslims to fast in the month of ramadhan as a voluntary basis,. That was before the fasting became compulsory vide verse 2:184. And the Muslims used to fast (Nafl) during the month of Ramadhan. But later the verse 2:184 was revealed and the fasting became compulsory.
 
 
 It may all be wrong (the above idea). It is agreed by all that the facility of verse 2:184 (expiation=Fidyah) is still allowed. If that is cancelleld (abrogated) no one can miss a fast, the old people and the pregnant ladies all will have to fast. If expiation part is abrogated then under what other verse the very old people will expiate? There is no other verse in the Quran allowing the Fidyah.
 
 Chaysalis had done well to understand the things. We have the original word of God (Quran) with us. WE need not just rely on the reports of very old scholars and go to sleep. There is the necessity to remain awake.
 
 Please also remember that the advice to fast is for those who feel hardship. It is advised to them that if they fast it is better for them. That advice is not for the sick and those in journey. The Muslims generally extend and apply that advice to the travellors also. That is not right. That advice is only for those who want to avoid fast by giving Fidyah (expiation).
 
 For the sick and those in journey,it is clear order to fast in later days ( in other days later).
 


Edited by minuteman - 16 August 2008 at 5:36pm
If any one is bad some one must suffer
IP IP Logged
Ron Webb
Male Humanism
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1737
Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2008 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by minuteman

That was all wrong too because it appeared that the verse 2:185 may have been revealed first i.e. before verse 2:184 ...

I don't understand how that can be.  I know that the Quran was not revealed all at once and not in the same order that it appears now (which seems odd to me too -- why would anyone change the order of the Suras?); but I had always assumed that at least each sura would be revealed intact, all at once and with the verses in the proper order.
 
Now you seem to be saying that Muhammad recited Sura 2, and then come back the next day or the next month and say, "Oh excuse me, I left out a verse between 183 and 185"?  That is almost as hard to imagine as abrogation. Why did the Quran need so much editing? Confused
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
IP IP Logged
minuteman
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 25 March 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1642
Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2008 at 11:23pm
 
 Ron, That is not the way. The Quran was revealed in a certain series of verses, one after the other over a period of 23 years. The prophet had ordered the final placement of verses as they were revealed. Every time a verse was revealed, the prophet told the scribes where it belonged and where it was to be written. There was no Quran as we see it today.
 
 It was not even compiled. But it was present in written form, on wood and leather and bones etc. As I said, the verse when revealed, the prophet told the scribes where that verse belonged and where it was to be written or placed. So the matter progressed.
 
 I had suggested that the verse 2:185 may have been revealed much earlier than the verse 2:184. It is a good possibility. If it became true then the question of verse 2:185 abrogating the verse 2:184 will not arise because a verse which is revealed earlier cannot abrogate the verse which was revealed later. That matter has to be examined.
 
 So please do not think that the prophet arranged verses in a certain order and next day came back and said that the order / arrangement was wrong. That is not the case. The revelation of Quran was not yet complete. It was continued for a long time. I hope I made it clear.  mm


Edited by minuteman - 16 August 2008 at 11:36pm
If any one is bad some one must suffer
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 15 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com