Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Behind The Bible Fraud Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 10 Next >>
Author Message
AhmadJoyia
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 20 March 2005
Location: Pakistan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1161
Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 31 July 2005 at 5:57pm

My question specifically is regards to "which Bible" are you referring to? The "OT" or "NT" etc as both have different origins as regards to their languages, beside the startling differences between Jews' Hebrew Bible and Christians' OT?

Secondly, the reference you gave, explicitly shows that though Hebrew may had been the language of people of Jereuslam, but for almost 8 centuries prior to the advent of Jesus, Aramaic became the lingua franca of the region. However, none of the books of NT claim to have Aramaic origin? 



Edited by AhmadJoyia
IP IP Logged
DavidC
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 September 2001
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2211
Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 01 August 2005 at 8:43am
I imagine you are right, AhmadJoyia. Again, I'm not a scholar.

My point was:

A) The Christian bible, OT & NT, was known to the Prophet Muhummad.
B) That a very similar translation is available today if one cares to look for it.

David C.
IP IP Logged
Jazz
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 July 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 110
Quote Jazz Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2005 at 2:50am
Originally posted by DavidC

I imagine you are right, AhmadJoyia. Again, I'm not a scholar.

My point was:

A) The Christian bible, OT & NT, was known to the Prophet Muhummad.


This is supported by sahih ahadith.

al-Bukari

http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sbk/

كتاب بدء الوحي (The Book of Revelation)

No. 3 - Narrated 'Aisha:
(the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the
Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read.

The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran):

'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly."
---------------------------------------------------------- --

al-Bukari

كتاب المناقب (The Book of the Virtues of the Prophet and His Companions)

No. 3372 - Narrated Anas:

There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations) for the Prophet. Later on he returned to christianity again and he used to say: "Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him." Then Allah caused him to die, and the people buried him, but in the morning they saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is the act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and took his body out of it because he had run away from them." They again dug the grave deeply for him, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, "This is an act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and threw his body outside it, for he had run away from them." They dug the grave for him as deep as they could, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. So they believed that what had befallen him was not done by human beings and had to leave him thrown (on the ground).
---------------------------------------------------------- -------

sahih al-Bukari

كتاب التيمم (The Book of Dry Ablution)

No. 341 - Narrated 'Imran:


Once we were traveling with the Prophet and we carried on traveling till the last part of the night and then we (halted at a place) and slept (deeply). There is nothing sweeter than sleep for a traveler in the last part of the night. So it was only the heat of the sun that made us to wake up and the first to wake up was so and so, then so and so and then so and so (the narrator 'Auf said that Abu Raja' had told him their names but he had forgotten them) and the fourth person to wake up was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab. And whenever the Prophet used to sleep, nobody would wake up him till he himself used to get up as we did not know what was happening (being revealed) to him in his sleep. So, 'Umar got up and saw the condition of the people, and he was a strict man, so he said, "Allahu Akbar" and raised his voice with Takbir, and kept on saying loudly till the Prophet got up because of it. When he got up, the people informed him about what had happened to them. He said, "There is no harm (or it will not be harmful). Depart!" So they departed from that place, and after covering some distance the Prophet stopped and asked for some water to perform the ablution. So he performed the ablution and the call for the prayer was pronounced and he led the people in prayer. After he finished from the prayer, he saw a man sitting aloof who had not prayed with the people. He asked, "O so and so! What has prevented you from praying with us?" He replied, "I am Junub and there is no water. " The Prophet said, "Perform Tayammum with (clean) earth and that is sufficient for you."

Then the Prophet proceeded on and the people complained to him of thirst. Thereupon he got down and called a person (the narrator 'Auf added that Abu Raja' had named him but he had forgotten) and 'Ali, and ordered them to go and bring water. So they went in search of water and met a woman who was sitting on her camel between two bags of water. They asked, "Where can we find water?" She replied, "I was there (at the place of water) this hour yesterday and my people are behind me." They requested her to accompany them. She asked, "Where?" They said, "To Allah's Apostle ." She said, "Do you mean the man who is called the Sabi, (with a new religion)?" They replied, "Yes, the same person. So come along." They brought her to the Prophet and narrated the whole story. He said, "Help her to dismount." The Prophet asked for a pot, then he opened the mouths of the bags and poured some water into the pot. Then he closed the big openings of the bags and opened the small ones and the people were called upon to drink and water their animals. So they all watered their animals and they (too) all quenched their thirst and also gave water to others and last of all the Prophet gave a pot full of water to the person who was Junub and told him to pour it over his body. The woman was standing and watching all that which they were doing with her water. By Allah, when her water bags were returned the looked like as if they were more full (of water) than they had been before (Miracle of Allah's Apostle) Then the Prophet ordered us to collect something for her; so dates, flour and Sawiq were collected which amounted to a good meal that was put in a piece of cloth. She was helped to ride on her camel and that cloth full of food-stuff was also placed in front of her and then the Prophet said to her, "We have not taken your water but Allah has given water to us." She returned home late. Her relatives asked her: "O so and so what has delayed you?" She said, "A strange thing! Two men met me and took me to the man who is called the Sabi' and he did such and such a thing. By Allah, he is either the greatest magician between this and this (gesturing with her index and middle fingers raising them towards the sky indicating the heaven and the earth) or he is Allah's true Apostle."

Afterwards the Muslims used to attack the pagans around her abode but never touched her village. One day she said to her people, "I think that these people leave you purposely. Have you got any inclination to Islam?" They obeyed her and all of them embraced Islam.

Abu 'Abdultah said: The word Saba'a means "The one who has deserted his old religion and embraced a new religion." Abul 'Ailya said, "The Sabis are a sect of people of the Scripture who recite the Book of psalms."







IP IP Logged
hazeshawn
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 27 July 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 9
Quote hazeshawn Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2005 at 8:53am

Originally posted by Jazz

Originally posted by hazeshawn

Trying to decipher the bible is like trying to decipher an M.Night Shaloman movie. They're both fictitious!


Considering your positive assertoin that "bible" is fictitious (Gospels too?)........you are now in a position to prove your claim.........can you do this?...........otherwise it is merely an opinion.

What criterion do you use to determine what is fictitious and what is not?..........then we may apply this criterion to other texts that are claimed to not be fictitious.

Please proceed.


 

When was the last time your "God" spoke to anyone? When was the last time you saw someone part a sea or walk on water? It's ficticious as hell is. When will you religious freaks wake up?

To Hell With Terrorism! (I don't believe in the "made up Hell that's in the fiction books, but rather an Island in the Cayman Islands)
IP IP Logged
Jazz
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 July 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 110
Quote Jazz Replybullet Posted: 03 August 2005 at 4:28am
Originally posted by hazeshawn

Originally posted by Jazz

Originally posted by hazeshawn

Trying to decipher the bible is like trying to decipher an M.Night Shaloman movie. They're both fictitious!


Considering your positive assertoin that "bible" is fictitious (Gospels too?)........you are now in a position to prove your claim.........can you do this?...........otherwise it is merely an opinion.

What criterion do you use to determine what is fictitious and what is not?..........then we may apply this criterion to other texts that are claimed to not be fictitious.

Please proceed.


 

When was the last time your "God" spoke to anyone? When was the last time you saw someone part a sea or walk on water? It's ficticious as hell is. When will you religious freaks wake up?



That's all OT stuff.

I am referring to guidances and advice that was atrubuted to Jesus, references are to be found in Gospels, not Old Testament stories, which Jesus actually "rebelled" against, all in the light of God (he called "The Father") but not in a name, nor a religion.

It appears that Jesus was, anti-religion.......he never sought to establish any rule through religion or to form any ritualistic, group-worship organization.

I don't think Jesus even called himself a prophet or divine, nor did he claim his mother had a virgin conception, yet if one studies closely the guidance he shared, one may see there is more to it all than the "miracles" and claims of divinity that in my opinion, actually distract from the true guidance and lead to division.

I strongly believe that if one is seeking a true, clear guidance for humanity, in respect of creation, then one need to go no further than the guidance of Jesus or whoever it was that said the things attributed to him...............Jesus didn't deliberately invent or start "christianity" or any religions!
IP IP Logged
AhmadJoyia
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 20 March 2005
Location: Pakistan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1161
Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 03 August 2005 at 11:49am

Originally posted by DavidC

I imagine you are right, AhmadJoyia. Again, I'm not a scholar.

My point was:

A) The Christian bible, OT & NT, was known to the Prophet Muhummad.
B) That a very similar translation is available today if one cares to look for it.

Dear Bro DavidC, though I do agree that both Jewish and Christians scriptures were prevalent at that time and place of Prophet Mohammad, but given the fact that there were so many of them (both canonical as well as non-canonical) , I really don't know which of them were actually being used by the Christians of that land. Also, though one thing is for certain that concept of "Trinity" was in vogue among them and it is this concept that is specifically adressed in Quran, yet there were many Christians who didn't associate any divinity with the Prophet Jesus e.g. the ebonites or as Bro Jazz has pointed out for chritians like "Warqa bin Naufal" etc. Therefore, one can't construe that Bible at that time was of any ubiquitous nature.

IP IP Logged
DavidC
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 September 2001
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2211
Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 03 August 2005 at 1:30pm
Certainly, when dealing with ancient literature much is unclear.

To go back to the thread author's allegation of "bible fraud", I think this is
unsupported. Others have claimed the Qu'ran is a "fraud" - also an
unsupported and even more absurd conclusion.

The history of the bible is not entirely certain, some changes have taken
place, and there are some contradictions. This does not add up to fraud or
make it less reliable than other commonly accepted ancient documents.
David C.
IP IP Logged
AhmadJoyia
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 20 March 2005
Location: Pakistan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1161
Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2005 at 9:57am
Bro DavidC, without making any biased opinion about any scriptural books, what do you say about the canonization of NT Bible? Was this not a purely human conjecture based upon the orientation of the people involved in the process? Secondly, when I have to trust someone's teachings to put my faith on him, I must know him without ambiguity. Isn't it? Can we put the same kind of trust and hence faith on the books in NT with dubious authorships?
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 10 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com