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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
Message Icon Topic: Questions by Thomas, while studying Qur'a Post Reply Post New Topic
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Akhe Abdullah
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 21 March 2009 at 7:05am
The 4 gospels in the Bible were written by people
who lived through the events of his life and followed him around on a
daily basis for the entire course of his ministry.
[/QUOTE]Wa Alaikum As Salam.Lots of famous people are followed on daily basis for the entire course of there fame, even in todays society,by people who are taking thier pictures and they give that image to a writter who formulates his own version of that incident.(Poporatzy)This is not anything new they had them back then also.
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seekshidayath
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 21 March 2009 at 7:36pm
Hello Thomas
 
InshaAllah, by the end of the day, shall answer the last part of so called contradictions, you posted. But one point i would like to tell you honestly. I had admiration for you, as you were seriously studying Islam. I thought, you were even studying Qur'an by your own. But when you pasted that from answering-islam site, i felt i were wrong.
 
Do study by your own and if you feel anything wrong, you can just question them. Answering these contradictions is not at all a problem {which you shared from anti-islamic site}.  I just want you to bring them out by your own., That shall help you to study Islam in real sense.
 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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_ALI_
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Quote _ALI_ Replybullet Posted: 21 March 2009 at 11:16pm

Salam

First, your previous post:

You said that Quran is not authentic since it contradicts with the Bible right? I just said that if Quran contradicts with the Bible, that does not make it unauthentic, since (as I proved) Bible is not authentic itself. Hence if Quran contradicts with a book which is unauthentic does not make Quran unauthentic.


It leads to question, not to draw conclusions.

I just proved that Bible is not authentic. So how can you question Quran if it contradicts with something which is unauthentic?
However the Qur'an could also be shown to unauthentic if it contradicts itself, yes?

Completely agree. As the Quran says

004.082 أَفَلا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِنْدِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُوا فِيهِ اخْتِلافًا كَثِيرًا
004.082 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

Al-Qur'an, 004.082 (An-Nisa [Women])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

But the contradictions you give must be real contradictions, not forced contradictions, consisting of verses out of context/misinterpretations by non-Muslims.

With much pain his mother bears him, and with much pain she brings him into the world. He is born and weaned in thirty months. When he grows to manhood and attains his fortieth year, let him say: ‘Inspire me, Lord, to give thanks for the favours You have bestowed on me and on my parents, and to do good works that will please You. Grant me good descendants. To You I turn and to You I surrender myself.’
Such are those for whom We will accept their noblest works and whose misdeeds We shall overlook. We shall admit them among the heirs of Paradise: true is the promise that has been given them.

 

Believers, do not befriend your fathers or your brothers if they choose unbelief in preference to faith. Wrongdoers are those that befriend them.
Say: ‘If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your tribes, the property you have acquired, the merchandise you fear may not be sold, and the homes you love, are dearer to you than God, His apostle and the struggle for His cause, then wait until God shall fulfill His decree. God does not guide the evil-doers.’ S. 9:23-24


So you are commanded to love and show kindness to your parents even if they are unbelievers, for they raised you well and will be forgiven, but you cannot befriend them? You can find a more in depth analysis of this contradiction here: http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/disbelieving_parents.html

You know, when I'm in a mood for some humor, I don't go to jokes.com. I go to answering-islam.org :). First verse is pretty clear. Be kind to your parents even if they are unbelievers. If you're a Muslim. Your parents are not. You must be kind to them under normal circumstances. Let's discuss the second verse. The second verse was particular in case of a war. Now if you are fighting in the way of Allah, and if your parents are against you, then you cannot take them as friends. In the explanation of this verse, Ibn Kathir (a very famous scholar of Quran) says

"The father of Abu `Ubaydah bin Al-Jarrah was repeatedly praising the idols to his son on the day of Badr, and Abu `Ubaydah kept avoiding him. When Al-Jarrah persisted, his son Abu `Ubaydah headed towards him and killed him. (www.tafsir.com)

Let me also give a background. Pagans came to finish off Muslims on the battleground of Badr. among them was Al-Jarrah, a pagan and Abu Ubaydah, his son from the Muslim's side. At the battlefield, even though Ubaydah was Al-Jarrah's son, Ubaydah, for the sake of Muslims faught his own father and killed him. So under such extraordinary circumstances, you cannot befriend non-Muslims, even if they are your parents. God is trying to emphasize that a person loves his or her parents the most but if even they go against Allah, we cannot neglect Allah and take the side of our parents.

 

 Likewise, claiming the Bible is faulty (though even I as a Christian believe that human error has been introduced into the record keeping of the Jewish histories and that mistranslations may occasionally occur)-

So you believe that human error has been introduced in the Bible? That's great. You're one step closer to Islam. Since error has been introduced, we cannot consider it as the word of God as a whole. Since error has been introduced in it, it is not authentic, hence if a book which has errors (as you admit) says that there was a 7 generation gap between Nimrod and Abraham, why should I believe it?

-is a direct internal contradiction in the Qur'an

Surah 3:3
He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel

Read the verse carefully. It does not say that Bible is not corrupted. I have no idea how Christians interpret what they do.

He 

i.e God

 sent down this scripture 

i.e Quran

truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures

Previous scriptures does not mean Bible, previous scriptures mean Torah, Injeel translated gospel and loads of others. Those scriptures have been corrupted, but when they were in there pure form, they spoke what Quran speaks i.e oneness of God, concept of prophethood etc. Quran confirms them means that whatever they taught, Quran also teaches. I have no idea how you interpret that this verse denies the corruption of the Bible.

and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel

He did not sent down the Bible, which is an unauthentic version of Torah and the gospel, full of human errors (as you admitted yourself), He sent down Torah and the Gospel.

Sura 6:34 There is none that can alter the words of Allah.

You quote out of context, but no problem, many Christians make that mistake when it comes to Quran.  According to the context.

While the Quran was being revealed, it had many commandments which went against the whims of the pagans living with the prophet. Those pagans used to torture Muslim and they used to taunt the prophet. Hence Allah says
006.033 قَدْ نَعْلَمُ إِنَّهُ لَيَحْزُنُكَ الَّذِي يَقُولُونَ فَإِنَّهُمْ لا يُكَذِّبُونَكَ وَلَكِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ يَجْحَدُونَ
006.033 We know indeed the grief which their words do cause thee: It is not thee they reject: it is the signs of Allah, which the wicked contemn.

006.034 وَلَقَدْ كُذِّبَتْ رُسُلٌ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ فَصَبَرُوا عَلَى مَا كُذِّبُوا وَأُوذُوا حَتَّى أَتَاهُمْ نَصْرُنَا وَلا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللَّهِ وَلَقَدْ جَاءَكَ مِنْ نَبَإِ الْمُرْسَلِينَ
006.034 Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers.

Al-Qur'an, 006.033-034 (Al-Anaam [Cattle, Livestock])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

Meaning even if the Quran is against the whims of the pagans, still God will not change it and it doesn't matter who rejects it and who doesn't. This verse does not mean that the Bible was not corrupted.

Sura 6:115
  The words of thy Lord are perfect in truth and in justice;
  NONE can change His words:
  For He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

Same context as that of verse 6:34. God does not care about what people think. If a majority people consider adultery to be okay then it doesn't matter, God will not lift the punishment for adultery. He cannot change His words. When it comes to God's words, there is no democracy. Read the word in the context. The next verse says


006.116 وَإِنْ تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَنْ فِي الأرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ إِنْ يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلا الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلا يَخْرُصُونَ
006.116 Wert thou to follow the common run (i.e majority) of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie.
Al-Qur'an, 006.116 (Al-Anaam [Cattle, Livestock])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
Surah 34:50
If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss
And yet Surah 4:89 commands Muslims to kill any who abandon Islam.
Of all the verses you quoted out of context, this one gets the prize. First verse again, context. Allah is telling prophet Muhammad to tell the pagans of Makkah
034.048 قُلْ إِنَّ رَبِّي يَقْذِفُ بِالْحَقِّ عَلامُ الْغُيُوبِ
034.048 Say: "Verily my Lord doth cast the (mantle of) Truth (over His servants),- He that has full knowledge of (all) that is hidden."
Allah tells prophet Muhammad to tell the pagans that God gave prophet Muhammad the Quran (truth) and He has the knowledge of the unseen.
034.049 قُلْ جَاءَ الْحَقُّ وَمَا يُبْدِئُ الْبَاطِلُ وَمَا يُعِيدُ
034.049 Say: "The Truth has arrived, and Falsehood neither creates anything new, nor restores anything."
Again pretty simple.
034.050 قُلْ إِنْ ضَلَلْتُ فَإِنَّمَا أَضِلُّ عَلَى نَفْسِي وَإِنِ اهْتَدَيْتُ فَبِمَا يُوحِي إِلَيَّ رَبِّي إِنَّهُ سَمِيعٌ قَرِيبٌ
034.050 Say: "If I am astray, I only stray to the loss of my own soul: but if I receive guidance, it is because of the inspiration of my Lord to me: it is He Who hears all things, and is (ever) near."
Al-Qur'an, 034.048-050 (Saba [Saba, Sheba])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
Now God is telling prophet Muhammad to tell pagans that: if I'm not guided, then that is my personal loss. But if I am guided, then that is a blessing of God. I have no idea how you connect this verse to a muslim becoming a non-Muslim. Now comes 4:89, which tells us to kill anyone who abandons Islam according to you :). I'll explain the context of this verse. Muslims were tortured by pagans in Makkah for being Muslims. They migrated to another city called Madina which provided them a safe haven. Muslims were allowed to practice their religion freely here but pagans from other cities were taking a few steps against Muslims. Among those pagans were those Muslims who chose to live with their people and not migrate. Even those so called Muslims actively took part against Muslims because in a tribe, you always follow your leader. Now Muslims of Madina were confused about those Muslims. Should they fight them? So Allah says:

004.088 فَمَا لَكُمْ فِي الْمُنَافِقِينَ فِئَتَيْنِ وَاللَّهُ أَرْكَسَهُمْ بِمَا كَسَبُوا أَتُرِيدُونَ أَنْ تَهْدُوا مَنْ أَضَلَّ اللَّهُ وَمَنْ يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَلَنْ تَجِدَ لَهُ سَبِيلا
004.088 Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites (i.e the group of Muslims who did not migrate)? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
004.089 وَدُّوا لَوْ تَكْفُرُونَ كَمَا كَفَرُوا فَتَكُونُونَ سَوَاءً فَلا تَتَّخِذُوا مِنْهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءَ حَتَّى يُهَاجِرُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ وَجَدْتُمُوهُمْ وَلا تَتَّخِذُوا مِنْهُمْ وَلِيًّا وَلا نَصِيرًا
004.089 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
Molana Maududi, a famous scholar writes in the explanation of this verse
This is the verdict on those hypocritical confessors of faith who belong to a belligerent, non-Muslim nation and actually participate in acts of hostility against the Islamic state.(www.tafheem.net)
004.090 إِلا الَّذِينَ يَصِلُونَ إِلَى قَوْمٍ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَهُمْ مِيثَاقٌ أَوْ جَاءُوكُمْ حَصِرَتْ صُدُورُهُمْ أَنْ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ أَوْ يُقَاتِلُوا قَوْمَهُمْ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَسَلَّطَهُمْ عَلَيْكُمْ فَلَقَاتَلُوكُمْ فَإِنِ اعْتَزَلُوكُمْ فَلَمْ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ وَأَلْقَوْا إِلَيْكُمُ السَّلَمَ فَمَا جَعَلَ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ سَبِيلا
004.090 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
Now there are two exceptions to killing the hypocrites. If a hypocrite joins a group which is friendly with Muslims, Muslims won't harm him. If he says, I won't fight you but I also won't fight my own people, even then Muslims won't harm him.
004.091 سَتَجِدُونَ آخَرِينَ يُرِيدُونَ أَنْ يَأْمَنُوكُمْ وَيَأْمَنُوا قَوْمَهُمْ كُلَّمَا رُدُّوا إِلَى الْفِتْنَةِ أُرْكِسُوا فِيهَا فَإِنْ لَمْ يَعْتَزِلُوكُمْ وَيُلْقُوا إِلَيْكُمُ السَّلَمَ وَيَكُفُّوا أَيْدِيَهُمْ فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ ثَقِفْتُمُوهُمْ وَأُولَئِكُمْ جَعَلْنَا لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ سُلْطَانًا مُبِينًا
004.091 Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they  withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.
Al-Qur'an, 004.087-091 (An-Nisa [Women])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
Here God clearly says: If a hypocrite does not withdraw and he does not guarantees peace, Muslims should not hesitate to kill him when he comes with his tribe to attack Muslims.
Surah 6:102-103 claims that Allah can not be seen, and yet Surah's
53, 69, 78, and 81 directly contradict this. For a more in depth analysis,
please take the time to read this: http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/allah_seen.htm
I have never, ever in my whole life ever visited an anti Islamic website which quotes in context. I'll just answer briefly
53:1-18, talks about Gabrael, not God, but Shamoun neglected that. That is understood since in Islam, God gave Gabriel the message and then angel Gabriel gave that message to the prophet.
053.001 وَالنَّجْمِ إِذَا هَوَى
053.001 By the Star when it goes down,-
053.002 مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَى
053.002 Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
053.003 وَمَا يَنْطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَى
053.003 Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
053.004 إِنْ هُوَ إِلا وَحْيٌ يُوحَى
053.004 It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:
053.005 عَلَّمَهُ شَدِيدُ الْقُوَى
053.005 He was taught by one Mighty in Power,
053.006 ذُو مِرَّةٍ فَاسْتَوَى
053.006 Endued with Wisdom: for he (Gabrael) appeared (in stately form);
053.007 وَهُوَ بِالأفُقِ الأعْلَى
053.007 While he was in the highest part of the horizon:
053.008 ثُمَّ دَنَا فَتَدَلَّى
053.008 Then he approached and came closer,
053.009 فَكَانَ قَابَ قَوْسَيْنِ أَوْ أَدْنَى
053.009 And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer;
053.010 فَأَوْحَى إِلَى عَبْدِهِ مَا أَوْحَى
053.010 So did (Allah) convey the inspiration to His Servant- (conveyed) what He (meant) to convey.
053.011 مَا كَذَبَ الْفُؤَادُ مَا رَأَى
053.011 The (Prophet's) (mind and) heart in no way falsified that which he saw.
053.012 أَفَتُمَارُونَهُ عَلَى مَا يَرَى
053.012 Will ye then dispute with him concerning what he saw?
053.013 وَلَقَدْ رَآهُ نَزْلَةً أُخْرَى
053.013 For indeed he saw him at a second descent,
053.014 عِنْدَ سِدْرَةِ الْمُنْتَهَى
053.014 Near the Lote-tree beyond which none may pass:
053.015 عِنْدَهَا جَنَّةُ الْمَأْوَى
053.015 Near it is the Garden of Abode.
053.016 إِذْ يَغْشَى السِّدْرَةَ مَا يَغْشَى
053.016 Behold, the Lote-tree was shrouded (in mystery unspeakable!)
053.017 مَا زَاغَ الْبَصَرُ وَمَا طَغَى
053.017 (His) sight never swerved, nor did it go wrong!
053.018 لَقَدْ رَأَى مِنْ آيَاتِ رَبِّهِ الْكُبْرَى
053.018 For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest!
Al-Qur'an, 053.001-018 (An-Najm [The Star])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
Also Chapter 81

081.023 وَلَقَدْ رَآهُ بِالأفُقِ الْمُبِينِ
081.023 And without doubt he saw him in the clear horizon.
Al-Qur'an, 081.023 (At-Takwir [The overthrowing])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
Note that the "h" of him is small in this translation and in all translations that I know of, clearly him refers to Gabriel.
Chap 69

069.040 إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ
069.040 That this is verily the word of an honoured messenger;
069.041 وَمَا هُوَ بِقَوْلِ شَاعِرٍ قَلِيلا مَا تُؤْمِنُونَ
069.041 It is not the word of a poet: little it is ye believe!
069.042 وَلا بِقَوْلِ كَاهِنٍ قَلِيلا مَا تَذَكَّرُونَ
069.042 Nor is it the word of a soothsayer: little admonition it is ye receive.
069.043 تَنْزِيلٌ مِنْ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ
069.043 (This is) a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds.
069.044 وَلَوْ تَقَوَّلَ عَلَيْنَا بَعْضَ الأقَاوِيلِ
069.044 And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name,
069.045 لأخَذْنَا مِنْهُ بِالْيَمِينِ
069.045 We should certainly seize him by his right hand,
069.046 ثُمَّ لَقَطَعْنَا مِنْهُ الْوَتِينَ
069.046 And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart:
069.047 فَمَا مِنْكُمْ مِنْ أَحَدٍ عَنْهُ حَاجِزِينَ
069.047 Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath).
Al-Qur'an, 069.040-047 (Al-Haaqqa [The Reality])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
Seizing someone with his right hand, even if you take this literally, you can sieze someone and not be seen. Hence these verses do not prove that God can be seen.
So now let us come to Chap 6:103. Does it really prove that God is invisible?
006.103 لا تُدْرِكُهُ الأبْصَارُ وَهُوَ يُدْرِكُ الأبْصَارَ وَهُوَ اللَّطِيفُ الْخَبِيرُ
006.103 No vision can perceive Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things.
Al-Qur'an, 006.103 (Al-Anaam [Cattle, Livestock])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
The word Tudrik means perceive, comprehend, understand. This verse can also be interpreted as our eyes cannot fully understand God. Do you know the mechanism of eyes? Suppose there is a blue object. White light is shone on it. It absorbs all the 6 colours of the rainbow but does not absorb blue. It reflects blue colour which our eyes absorb. Hence that object is blue for us. That object is limited in the sense that it will alway absorb the other 6 colours and always reflect blue. For an eye to completely percieve an object, that object has to be limited in this sense. God is not limited in any way and to any colour so our eyes cannot fully comprehend Him.
And as for whether prophet Muhammad really saw Allah during "Maraaj" there is a difference of opinion. Some scholars, along with Aisha (wife of the prophet) say that he didn't. Some like Ibn Abbas say that he did. Such trivial difference of opinion exist in Islam. It is irrelevant for us whether prophet Muhammad saw Him or not. I will not be asked about that on the day of judgement.
Furthermore, the Qur'an says angels are not to be worshipped (with which I agree) because
they can neither create life nor take it away yet elsewhere it says
Allah sends His angel to it to
breathe into it the spirit
and speaks of
Those whom the angels CAUSE TO DIE
Angels cannot give life and take it away on their own. That is what the Quran says. They can only follow orders. If God has appointed Gabriel to give messages to prophets then that does not mean that Gabriel can come and have a chat with prophets whenever he wants. Similarly if God has appointed an angel to take life, that does not mean he has the authority to take life whenever he wants.
These are not matters of mere historical record written by a human, these are some of the fundamental beliefs of Islam that I hear defended
every time I debate and claim to be from the very mouth of God who can not err
I have replied to each and every one of your allegations. But you only touched 2 of mine and ignored the rest. I'm sure that you will probably want to cut/paste more from  answeringislam but since it is a busy month, I might not be able to reply to each and every one of your allegations. Here are a few links which answer each and every allegation
There is not a single alleged contradiction of Quran which cannot be answered. I would recommend answering Christianity. It is a bit aggressive but it is only a reaction to answering Islam. Now coming to your new post
Originally posted by _ALI_

It's not historical record. As I proved, it is unauthentic historical record. Bible contradicts with history in many aspects. It contradicts with itself. Why should I consider its historical record authentic?

So what you're saying is.....the newer story that can only be traced back 1900 years is more likely to be authentic then the story that can be traced back 2450 years?
We both agree that Bible is unauthentic as you said that even I as a Christian believe that human error has been introduced into the record keeping of the Jewish histories and that mistranslations may occasionally occur
So now let's come to Quran. Assuming Quran is God's word, if Quran says something then that is extremely authentic. It doesn't matter when the Quran was revealed, since God was present at the time of Nimrod and Adam. So if God says that they had a conversation then they did. Hence if we prove that Quran is God's word, we prove that it presents an authentic record of Nimrod and Adam. And you can prove Quran to be a word of God in so many ways.
One of the most common methods nowadays is to present prescientific knowledge in the Quran
The gospel of Barnabas was written more than a millenium and a half after Jesus's life. The 4 gospels in the Bible were written by people who lived through the events of his life and followed him around on a daily basis for the entire course of his ministry.
That is true according to your sources. Your sources are not authentic since your prime source (i.e Bible) is not authentic as I proved before.
....really? You don't prove customs, they are recorded. If you'd like though I'll run it by my friend who's spent the last 4 years attending a private Jewish school studying Jewish history and ask her what she was taught on the matter.
You prove customs by showing us the record. I just want to know, where did you hear/read that it was a custom that mother's genealogy ends with father's name. Or you can prove it by giving a historical account of a person in which his mother's genealogy ends with his father's name. And what about my other questions? How do you know that Nathan is Mary's great grand father? How do you tell the difference between father's genealogy and mother's genealogy.

Originally posted by _ALI_

Why do you say that the first verse refers to pairs and the second refers to animals when the verses are clearly identical? And again, you touched only two out of the 15 contradictions I gave. I can give many more but first answer to the remaining 13.


Most of the translations I have say "pairs" and "7 pairs"   Clearly  7 pairs of something is still having pairs of something.
It doesn't say "pairs" and "7 pairs", it says "a pair" and "7 pair". I agree that 7 pairs of something is still having pairs of something but 7 pairs of something does not mean a pair of something. I quoted KJV before. New Living Translation is very clear
Gen 6:19
Bring a pair of every kind of animal......
Gen 7:2
Take with you seven pairs—male and female....
 However I think it equally likely that God was clarifying his instructions to Noah with regards to collecting clean animals. If I say to you please go get several bags of marshmallows and some cans of beans from the grocery store. And then I tell you to get 4 cans of beans, there is no contradiction, I'm merely being more specific about the beans then in the original instructions.
I agree, there is no contradiction. But if you first tell me to bring a bag of marshmellows and a can of beans, then you tell me to bring 7 bags of marshmellows and 7 cans of beans, then that is a contradiction. That is the case with Genesis, a pair and 7 pairs.
The fact that the Qur'an contradicts the Bible (specifically the Gospel story as accounted in the 4 canonical gosepls), which I have good reason to consider the truth, certainly leads me to doubt the Qur'an.
You admit that records of the Bible have errors, yet if it contradicts with Quran (which has no errors), Quran is not true.
However even more concerning to me is that the Qur'an claims to be with contradiction, but contradicts itself in the ways listed above.
I answered to your each and every 1 of your given concerns and have given you links which will answer to all your other concerns.
The Bible makes no such claims, and the fundamental teachings of the Bible do not lean on whether or not court scribes properly recorded the number of people involved in an army.
I agree, but if Bible gives a figure and then contradicts it, that means it is unauthentic and likewise, the fundamental principles of Jesus as presented by the Bible are unauthentic.
Those portions of narrative aren't prophecy, and they don't claim to be from God's mouth, they are simply recounting important portions of Jewish history. If you could find serious contradictions between the accounts in the Gospels, I would have reason to be concerned, and would take a good hard look at those portions of the Gospel.
So you say that a part of the Bible is not authentic and a part is? Well if I prove that a part of the Bible has mistakes, doesn't that mean that other parts of the Bible can also have mistakes? And the gospels do not say that Nimrod and Abraham had a 7 generation gap. The OT says that, recorded by a historian, giving Jewish history which you yourself say that it can be wrong.
 
So contradictions in the gospels:
How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ?
By a revelation from heaven (Matthew 16:17)
His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41)
 How many disciples did Jesus appear to after his resurrection? Twelve (I Corinthians 15:5)
Eleven (Matthew 27:3-5 and Acts 1:9-26, see also Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14 footnote; Luke 24:9; Luke 24:3 3)
Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
After his baptism, the spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days ... (Mark 1:12-13)
Next day after the baptism, Jesus selected two disciples. Second day: Jesus went to Galilee - two more disciples. Third day: Jesus was at a wedding feast in Cana in Galilee (see John 1:35; 1:43; 2:1-11)
Was baby Jesus life threatened in Jerusalem?
Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 23)
No. The family fled nowhere. They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40) 
 When Jesus walked on water how did the disciples respond?
They worshipped him, saying, Truly you are the Son of God (Matthew 14:33)
They were utterly astounded, for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened (Mark 6:51-52)
Does every man sin?
Yes. There is no man who does not sin (I Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and I John 1:810)
No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God. Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.. (I John 5:1). We should be called children of God; and so we are (I John 3: 1). He who loves is born of God (I John 4:7). No one born of God commits sin; for Gods nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God (I John 3:9). But, then again, Yes! If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (I John 1:8)
The strength and weakness of the Qur'an however is that it does claim to be by a single author, unchanged throughout its history, and the author is God who can not make a mistake or contradict himself.
That is just a strength, not a weakness.
If the Qur'an holds up to scrutiny all its claims hold up to scrutiny, if however a singel portion of the Qur'an can be shown to be false or self-contradictory, then it is imperative to accept that it can't possibly have been written by God, for He is incapable of making such a grievous mistake.
I couldn't agree with you more. And each and every alleged contradiction of the Quran given in anti-Islamic sites can be answered easily and all alleged contradiction that I know of has been answered in the 4 links I gave.
Thus I am asking you to consider the contradictions I have listed above on an individual basis. If there is something that has been lost in the translation from Arabic to English that resolves the contradiction, please do your best to explain it to me.
I did that and I also gave you a few links which answer all the allegations against the Quran. I hope that you will clear your doubts you acquired from answering Islam regarding Quran with the help of those links. Learn Islam from Islamic sources, not from those sources which quote out of context.  
May God grant us all wisdom and a clear and discerning mind in this matter, for it is of the utmost importance.
Ameen
Peace
 
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Quote thomasd Replybullet Posted: 22 March 2009 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah

Alaikum As Salam.Lots of famous people are followed on daily basis for the entire course of there fame, even in todays society,by people who are taking thier pictures and they give that image to a writter who formulates his own version of that incident.(Poporatzy)This is not anything new they had them back then also.

I should have been more specific. The 4 gospels were written by his closest friends.

Originally posted by seekshidayath

Hello Thomas
 
InshaAllah, by the end of the day, shall answer the last part of so called contradictions, you posted. But one point i would like to tell you honestly. I had admiration for you, as you were seriously studying Islam. I thought, you were even studying Qur'an by your own. But when you pasted that from answering-islam site, i felt i were wrong.
 
Do study by your own and if you feel anything wrong, you can just question them. Answering these contradictions is not at all a problem {which you shared from anti-islamic site}.  I just want you to bring them out by your own., That shall help you to study Islam in real sense.

An important part of studying any religion is to be able to look at criticisms of it and determine whether or not the criticism is well founded or not. I do the same with my own Christian faith (or I wouldn't be here in the first place). The Qur'an is very dense reading, and so I am bringing these criticisms to you for answers, in the hope that either I will learn something from them that will aid my inquiry into Islam, or that they will be valid criticisms and you will learn something that will bring you to a better understanding of God.

Originally posted by _ALI_

I just proved that Bible is not authentic. So how can you question Quran if it contradicts with something which is unauthentic?

You showed that the kingdom of Israel had poor administrative records.


However the Qur'an could also be shown to unauthentic if it contradicts itself, yes?
Completely agree. As the Quran says

004.082 أَفَلا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِنْدِ غَيْرِ اللَّهِ لَوَجَدُوا فِيهِ اخْتِلافًا كَثِيرًا
004.082 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

Good, we're on the same page here.

But the contradictions you give must be real contradictions, not forced contradictions, consisting of verses out of context/misinterpretations by non-Muslims.

I'm not sure what you mean by forced contradiction, though a criticism is equally valid from a non-Muslim or a Muslim (and perhaps more likely). It is the question of misinterpretation which is at issue here, and like I said, I am more than open to correction in this matter.


You know, when I'm in a mood for some humor, I don't go to jokes.com. I go to answering-islam.org :).

One testimony in particular stood out to me. I strongly suggest reading Nabeel Qureshi's story.


Let me also give a background. Pagans came to finish off Muslims on the battleground of Badr. among them was Al-Jarrah, a pagan and Abu Ubaydah, his son from the Muslim's side. At the battlefield, even though Ubaydah was Al-Jarrah's son, Ubaydah, for the sake of Muslims faught his own father and killed him. So under such extraordinary circumstances, you cannot befriend non-Muslims, even if they are your parents. God is trying to emphasize that a person loves his or her parents the most but if even they go against Allah, we cannot neglect Allah and take the side of our parents.

In doing so he condemned his father to hell, rather than teaching him of his error and bringing him into a relationship with God. There are very few sins with more severe consequences then this.

 

So you believe that human error has been introduced in the Bible? That's great. You're one step closer to Islam. Since error has been introduced, we cannot consider it as the word of God as a whole.

It still contains the words of God, and while the errors introduced are worth investigation, I not believe they have corrupted the fundamental truth of the Biblical narrative.


Since error has been introduced in it, it is not authentic, hence if a book which has errors (as you admit) says that there was a 7 generation gap between Nimrod and Abraham, why should I believe it?

Historical analysis. The narrative containing the 7 generation gap and the genealogies predate any tale showing them to be contemporaries by 5 centuries, and predates the account in the Qur'an by more than a millenium.


-is a direct internal contradiction in the Qur'an

Surah 3:3
He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel

Read the verse carefully. It does not say that Bible is not corrupted. I have no idea how Christians interpret what they do.

He 

i.e God

 sent down this scripture 

i.e Quran

truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures

Previous scriptures does not mean Bible, previous scriptures mean Torah, Injeel translated gospel and loads of others. Those scriptures have been corrupted, but when they were in there pure form, they spoke what Quran speaks i.e oneness of God, concept of prophethood etc. Quran confirms them means that whatever they taught, Quran also teaches. I have no idea how you interpret that this verse denies the corruption of the Bible.

and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel

He did not sent down the Bible, which is an unauthentic version of Torah and the gospel, full of human errors (as you admitted yourself), He sent down Torah and the Gospel.

The canonical Gospels and the Torah can both be studied outside of the Bible and show the exact same narrative, and are, in fact, the source of the majority of the Bible. If they are scriptures sent by God (and oddly enough we know the Gospels were not sent down by God, but rather written by men relating the life of Jesus, further contradicting the Qur'an), then they must enjoy the same protected status as the Qur'an, for they too are His holy scripture.



Sura 6:34 There is none that can alter the words of Allah.

You quote out of context, but no problem, many Christians make that mistake when it comes to Quran.  According to the context.

While the Quran was being revealed, it had many commandments which went against the whims of the pagans living with the prophet. Those pagans used to torture Muslim and they used to taunt the prophet. Hence Allah says
006.033 قَدْ نَعْلَمُ إِنَّهُ لَيَحْزُنُكَ الَّذِي يَقُولُونَ فَإِنَّهُمْ لا يُكَذِّبُونَكَ وَلَكِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ يَجْحَدُونَ
006.033 We know indeed the grief which their words do cause thee: It is not thee they reject: it is the signs of Allah, which the wicked contemn.

006.034 وَلَقَدْ كُذِّبَتْ رُسُلٌ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ فَصَبَرُوا عَلَى مَا كُذِّبُوا وَأُوذُوا حَتَّى أَتَاهُمْ نَصْرُنَا وَلا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللَّهِ وَلَقَدْ جَاءَكَ مِنْ نَبَإِ الْمُرْسَلِينَ
006.034 Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers.

Al-Qur'an, 006.033-034 (Al-Anaam [Cattle, Livestock])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

Meaning even if the Quran is against the whims of the pagans, still God will not change it and it doesn't matter who rejects it and who doesn't. This verse does not mean that the Bible was not corrupted.

Sura 6:115
  The words of thy Lord are perfect in truth and in justice;
  NONE can change His words:
  For He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

Same context as that of verse 6:34. God does not care about what people think. If a majority people consider adultery to be okay then it doesn't matter, God will not lift the punishment for adultery. He cannot change His words. When it comes to God's words, there is no democracy. Read the word in the context. The next verse says


006.116 وَإِنْ تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَنْ فِي الأرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ إِنْ يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلا الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلا يَخْرُصُونَ
006.116 Wert thou to follow the common run (i.e majority) of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie.

Oddly enought that's the verse I hear quoted out of context every time I'm debating a Muslim as evidence that the Qur'an can't have been corrupted. Which is it? Does God's scripture inherently carry protection against corruption or not? If not, the Qur'an is as equally likely to have been changed as the Torah and the Gospels, and if so, the Torah and the Gospels, which are by the Qur'an's own admission also God's scripture, carry the same protection and can not have been corrupted.


Surah 34:50
If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss
And yet Surah 4:89 commands Muslims to kill any who abandon Islam.
Of all the verses you quoted out of context, this one gets the prize. First verse again, context. Allah is telling prophet Muhammad to tell the pagans of Makkah
034.048 قُلْ إِنَّ رَبِّي يَقْذِفُ بِالْحَقِّ عَلامُ الْغُيُوبِ
034.048 Say: "Verily my Lord doth cast the (mantle of) Truth (over His servants),- He that has full knowledge of (all) that is hidden."
Allah tells prophet Muhammad to tell the pagans that God gave prophet Muhammad the Quran (truth) and He has the knowledge of the unseen.
034.049 قُلْ جَاءَ الْحَقُّ وَمَا يُبْدِئُ الْبَاطِلُ وَمَا يُعِيدُ
034.049 Say: "The Truth has arrived, and Falsehood neither creates anything new, nor restores anything."
Again pretty simple.
034.050 قُلْ إِنْ ضَلَلْتُ فَإِنَّمَا أَضِلُّ عَلَى نَفْسِي وَإِنِ اهْتَدَيْتُ فَبِمَا يُوحِي إِلَيَّ رَبِّي إِنَّهُ سَمِيعٌ قَرِيبٌ
034.050 Say: "If I am astray, I only stray to the loss of my own soul: but if I receive guidance, it is because of the inspiration of my Lord to me: it is He Who hears all things, and is (ever) near."
Al-Qur'an, 034.048-050 (Saba [Saba, Sheba])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
Now God is telling prophet Muhammad to tell pagans that: if I'm not guided, then that is my personal loss. But if I am guided, then that is a blessing of God. I have no idea how you connect this verse to a muslim becoming a non-Muslim. Now comes 4:89, which tells us to kill anyone who abandons Islam according to you :). I'll explain the context of this verse. Muslims were tortured by pagans in Makkah for being Muslims. They migrated to another city called Madina which provided them a safe haven. Muslims were allowed to practice their religion freely here but pagans from other cities were taking a few steps against Muslims. Among those pagans were those Muslims who chose to live with their people and not migrate. Even those so called Muslims actively took part against Muslims because in a tribe, you always follow your leader. Now Muslims of Madina were confused about those Muslims. Should they fight them? So Allah says:

004.088 فَمَا لَكُمْ فِي الْمُنَافِقِينَ فِئَتَيْنِ وَاللَّهُ أَرْكَسَهُمْ بِمَا كَسَبُوا أَتُرِيدُونَ أَنْ تَهْدُوا مَنْ أَضَلَّ اللَّهُ وَمَنْ يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَلَنْ تَجِدَ لَهُ سَبِيلا
004.088 Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites (i.e the group of Muslims who did not migrate)? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
004.089 وَدُّوا لَوْ تَكْفُرُونَ كَمَا كَفَرُوا فَتَكُونُونَ سَوَاءً فَلا تَتَّخِذُوا مِنْهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءَ حَتَّى يُهَاجِرُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ وَجَدْتُمُوهُمْ وَلا تَتَّخِذُوا مِنْهُمْ وَلِيًّا وَلا نَصِيرًا
004.089 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
Molana Maududi, a famous scholar writes in the explanation of this verse
This is the verdict on those hypocritical confessors of faith who belong to a belligerent, non-Muslim nation and actually participate in acts of hostility against the Islamic state.(www.tafheem.net)
004.090 إِلا الَّذِينَ يَصِلُونَ إِلَى قَوْمٍ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَهُمْ مِيثَاقٌ أَوْ جَاءُوكُمْ حَصِرَتْ صُدُورُهُمْ أَنْ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ أَوْ يُقَاتِلُوا قَوْمَهُمْ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَسَلَّطَهُمْ عَلَيْكُمْ فَلَقَاتَلُوكُمْ فَإِنِ اعْتَزَلُوكُمْ فَلَمْ يُقَاتِلُوكُمْ وَأَلْقَوْا إِلَيْكُمُ السَّلَمَ فَمَا جَعَلَ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ سَبِيلا
004.090 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
Now there are two exceptions to killing the hypocrites. If a hypocrite joins a group which is friendly with Muslims, Muslims won't harm him. If he says, I won't fight you but I also won't fight my own people, even then Muslims won't harm him.
004.091 سَتَجِدُونَ آخَرِينَ يُرِيدُونَ أَنْ يَأْمَنُوكُمْ وَيَأْمَنُوا قَوْمَهُمْ كُلَّمَا رُدُّوا إِلَى الْفِتْنَةِ أُرْكِسُوا فِيهَا فَإِنْ لَمْ يَعْتَزِلُوكُمْ وَيُلْقُوا إِلَيْكُمُ السَّلَمَ وَيَكُفُّوا أَيْدِيَهُمْ فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ ثَقِفْتُمُوهُمْ وَأُولَئِكُمْ جَعَلْنَا لَكُمْ عَلَيْهِمْ سُلْطَانًا مُبِينًا
004.091 Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they  withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.
Al-Qur'an, 004.087-091 (An-Nisa [Women])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
Here God clearly says: If a hypocrite does not withdraw and he does not guarantees peace, Muslims should not hesitate to kill him when he comes with his tribe to attack Muslims.

The history lesson was most certainly helpful in understanding the verse, thank you.

53:1-18, talks about Gabrael, not God, but Shamoun neglected that. That is understood since in Islam, God gave Gabriel the message and then angel Gabriel gave that message to the prophet.
053.001 وَالنَّجْمِ إِذَا هَوَى
053.001 By the Star when it goes down,-
053.002 مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَى
053.002 Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
053.003 وَمَا يَنْطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَى
053.003 Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.
053.004 إِنْ هُوَ إِلا وَحْيٌ يُوحَى
053.004 It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:
053.005 عَلَّمَهُ شَدِيدُ الْقُوَى
053.005 He was taught by one Mighty in Power,
053.006 ذُو مِرَّةٍ فَاسْتَوَى
053.006 Endued with Wisdom: for he (Gabrael) appeared (in stately form);
053.007 وَهُوَ بِالأفُقِ الأعْلَى
053.007 While he was in the highest part of the horizon:
053.008 ثُمَّ دَنَا فَتَدَلَّى
053.008 Then he approached and came closer,
053.009 فَكَانَ قَابَ قَوْسَيْنِ أَوْ أَدْنَى
053.009 And was at a distance of but two bow-lengths or (even) nearer;
053.010 فَأَوْحَى إِلَى عَبْدِهِ مَا أَوْحَى
053.010 So did (Allah) convey the inspiration to His Servant- (conveyed) what He (meant) to convey.
053.011 مَا كَذَبَ الْفُؤَادُ مَا رَأَى
053.011 The (Prophet's) (mind and) heart in no way falsified that which he saw.
053.012 أَفَتُمَارُونَهُ عَلَى مَا يَرَى
053.012 Will ye then dispute with him concerning what he saw?
053.013 وَلَقَدْ رَآهُ نَزْلَةً أُخْرَى
053.013 For indeed he saw him at a second descent,
053.014 عِنْدَ سِدْرَةِ الْمُنْتَهَى
053.014 Near the Lote-tree beyond which none may pass:
053.015 عِنْدَهَا جَنَّةُ الْمَأْوَى
053.015 Near it is the Garden of Abode.
053.016 إِذْ يَغْشَى السِّدْرَةَ مَا يَغْشَى
053.016 Behold, the Lote-tree was shrouded (in mystery unspeakable!)
053.017 مَا زَاغَ الْبَصَرُ وَمَا طَغَى
053.017 (His) sight never swerved, nor did it go wrong!
053.018 لَقَدْ رَأَى مِنْ آيَاتِ رَبِّهِ الْكُبْرَى
053.018 For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest!

Where does Gabriel come in to the picture. I'm assuming the parentheses mean that the meaning is implied, but I see no other reference to Gabriel in that verse, so I'm not sure how the meaning of  personal pronoun he can be taken from context to mean Gabriel. Immediately before that however it refers to one "Mighty in Power" which would seem to be a reference to El Shaddai (God Almighty), and immediately afterwards it DOES refer to Allah.

081.023 وَلَقَدْ رَآهُ بِالأفُقِ الْمُبِينِ
081.023 And without doubt he saw him in the clear horizon.
Al-Qur'an, 081.023 (At-Takwir [The overthrowing])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
Note that the "h" of him is small in this translation and in all translations that I know of, clearly him refers to Gabriel.

I don't know Arabic, so you're going to have to (again) explain how Gabriel is being inserted in to this verse.

And as for whether prophet Muhammad really saw Allah during "Maraaj" there is a difference of opinion. Some scholars, along with Aisha (wife of the prophet) say that he didn't. Some like Ibn Abbas say that he did. Such trivial difference of opinion exist in Islam. It is irrelevant for us whether prophet Muhammad saw Him or not. I will not be asked about that on the day of judgement.

It is strange to me then, that if Muhammad saw God, how Christian and Jewish narratives in which God takes shape are attacked by Muslims as being inaccurate.

There is not a single alleged contradiction of Quran which cannot be answered. I would recommend answering Christianity. It is a bit aggressive but it is only a reaction to answering Islam. Now coming to your new post

We both agree that Bible is unauthentic as you said that

You misunderstand. I believe that the Biblical narrative is fundamentally true, but that because of mistranslation, and occasional errors in record keeping we must examine it closely when portions appear to not make sense and study the original source of that portion of the text.

So now let's come to Quran. Assuming Quran is God's word, if Quran says something then that is extremely authentic. It doesn't matter when the Quran was revealed, since God was present at the time of Nimrod and Adam. So if God says that they had a conversation then they did. Hence if we prove that Quran is God's word, we prove that it presents an authentic record of Nimrod and Adam. And you can prove Quran to be a word of God in so many ways.
One of the most common methods nowadays is to present prescientific knowledge in the Quran

The same is true of the Bible ;) Every single law God gave the Israelite people to help them differentiate between clean and unclean only make sense in context of modern medical knowledge. Even the call to monogamy makes significantly more sense in the face of certain features of human biochemistry, and the creation narrative in Genesis 1 when yom is interpreted as a period of time rather than a 24 hour day jives almost perfectly with current scientific understanding of creation.
 
That is true according to your sources. Your sources are not authentic since your prime source (i.e Bible) is not authentic as I proved before.

Find me at least 3 mainstream scholars (e.g. not religiously affiliated, not Rashid Rida
) who believe that the Gospel of Barnabas is historically authentic (actually written by Barnabas). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas#Textual_history
http://www.chri*****es.de/barnarom.htm (erm...this link seems to have been censored.....I don't know why. it's chris lages (dot) de
http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/Blackhirst_Barnabas.html
It's easy to make claims without a source.

You prove customs by showing us the record. I just want to know, where did you hear/read that it was a custom that mother's genealogy ends with father's name. Or you can prove it by giving a historical account of a person in which his mother's genealogy ends with his father's name. And what about my other questions? How do you know that Nathan is Mary's great grand father? How do you tell the difference between father's genealogy and mother's genealogy.

http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/why-are-there-different-genealogies-jesus-matthew-1-and-luke-3
Again, if you have trouble accepting that I'll ask my Jewish friend/have her run it by her teachers.

 However I think it equally likely that God was clarifying his instructions to Noah with regards to collecting clean animals. If I say to you please go get several bags of marshmallows and some cans of beans from the grocery store. And then I tell you to get 4 cans of beans, there is no contradiction, I'm merely being more specific about the beans then in the original instructions.
I agree, there is no contradiction. But if you first tell me to bring a bag of marshmellows and a can of beans, then you tell me to bring 7 bags of marshmellows and 7 cans of beans, then that is a contradiction. That is the case with Genesis, a pair and 7 pairs.

http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/genesis-deuteronomy/how-many-kinds-did-noah-bring-ark-two-or-seven


You admit that records of the Bible have errors, yet if it contradicts with Quran (which has no errors), Quran is not true.

What it comes down to is, I question the Qur'an where it contradicts my personal beliefs and am challenging you to answer those questions. As yet, I have been given no convincing reason to accept the Qur'an, and quite a few convincing reasons to accept the Bible, mostly tied to personal experience. For a little background, both of my grandfathers are pastors and former missionaries. My great-grandfather and a great-uncle both were pastors. 2 of my four uncles have spent significant portions of the last 12 years engaged in mission work, my mother's most recent paid job was campus ministry with
www.ccci.org/">CCC, and my father is the faculty advisor for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship at one of the most secular liberal arts colleges in the country and is one of the backup preachers at our church for when Pastor Steve is on vacation. So yes, I take my faith very seriously, however part of that faith is the belief that I should strive to have the best understanding of God that I can. Islam claims to have that better understanding, but also contradicts some fundamental Christian teachings that mesh very well with my observations of the world we live in, and that requires significant evidence if am to ever accept it. Most discussions of Islam I've been involved in eventually come down to "I believe the Qur'an because the Qur'an says I should." without any real evidence as to why it should be considered a trustworthy source.

I agree, but if Bible gives a figure and then contradicts it, that means it is unauthentic and likewise, the fundamental principles of Jesus as presented by the Bible are unauthentic.

I'm not sure how you're drawing a connection between government scribes relaying information about past military encounters to 4 non-conflicting biographies written by 4 different people about one of their closest friends other than that they are commonly published in the same volume.

So you say that a part of the Bible is not authentic and a part is? Well if I prove that a part of the Bible has mistakes, doesn't that mean that other parts of the Bible can also have mistakes?

Unlike the Qur'an, the (Protestant) Bible is 66 books by a similarly large number of authors published as a single book, all of which should be studied independently, as well as cohesively. I think the Catholic bible has 73, the extras being considered apocrypha (interesting, but significantly less trustworthy sources) by most Protestants.

And the gospels do not say that Nimrod and Abraham had a 7 generation gap. The OT says that, recorded by a historian, giving Jewish history which you yourself say that it can be wrong.

Specifically in Genesis (part of the Torah), which is traditionally believed to have been revealed to Moses by God, and can be shown to have survived unchanged for nearly 2.5 millenia.
 

How did Simon Peter find out that Jesus was the Christ?
By a revelation from heaven (Matthew 16:17)
His brother Andrew told him (John 1:41)


How many disciples did Jesus appear to after his resurrection? Twelve (I Corinthians 15:5)
Eleven (Matthew 27:3-5 and Acts 1:9-26, see also Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14 footnote; Luke 24:9; Luke 24:3 3)

He appeared to more than 500 people from the time of his resurrection until his ascension. Judas Iscariot was obviously no longer one of the 12, but presumably Paul was referring to the disciples as "the 12" despite their being diminished in number. After his ascension they chose Matthias to replace Judas among their numbers, and they were back up to 12. It's also not unreasonable to believe that Matthias (having been chosen to join the disciples), was one of the 500 or so that so Jesus before the ascension.

Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
After his baptism, the spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days ... (Mark 1:12-13)
Next day after the baptism, Jesus selected two disciples. Second day: Jesus went to Galilee - two more disciples. Third day: Jesus was at a wedding feast in Cana in Galilee (see John 1:35; 1:43; 2:1-11)

http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/chronology-jesus-baptism-and-temptation
John narrates different portions of Jesus's life than do the synoptic Gospels and omits certain events. Relatedly: http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/where-did-jesus-first-meet-simon-peter-and-andrew

Was baby Jesus life threatened in Jerusalem?
Yes, so Joseph fled with him to Egypt and stayed there until Herod died (Matthew 2:13 23)
No. The family fled nowhere. They calmly presented the child at the Jerusalem temple according to the Jewish customs and returned to Galilee (Luke 2:21-40)

 The wise men didn't arrive for more than a year after his birth (its a long trek from Persia to Israel ;) ), so it would follow that they fled after that happened, especially since Herod ordered the death of children under the age of two
When Jesus walked on water how did the disciples respond?
They worshipped him, saying, Truly you are the Son of God (Matthew 14:33)
They were utterly astounded, for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened (Mark 6:51-52)

It would seem to me that being utterly astounded could go hand in hand with the worship

Does every man sin?
Yes. There is no man who does not sin (I Kings 8:46; see also 2 Chronicles 6:36; Proverbs 20:9; Ecclesiastes 7:20; and I John 1:810)
No. True Christians cannot possibly sin, because they are the children of God. Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God.. (I John 5:1).

Where did that come from?
Originally posted by I John 5:1

1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.



We should be called children of God; and so we are (I John 3: 1). He who loves is born of God (I John 4:7). No one born of God commits sin; for Gods nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God (I John 3:9). But, then again, Yes! If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (I John 1:8)

This is probably the most interesting "contradiction" you've dug up so far, and certainly warrants careful inspection. To begin with however I'd like to point out that I John is not one of the Gospels, but rather an epistle. I'd like to take the time to write a longer response to this one, so I'll post again later. (I've already spent about 2 hours on and off with this one ;) )




Edited by thomasd - 22 March 2009 at 3:26pm
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Quote Nazarene Replybullet Posted: 28 March 2009 at 3:50pm
peace to all!
 
hello thomasd.
 
    tell me thomas do christains realy follow jesus' teachings?
 
john 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.{ there is nothing in this verse to implicate the death of jesus as the "gift" in fact it's all INTERPETATION for an INTERPETATION. as you read on from jesus' own words it is meant that his LIFE and WORD was the gift as islam states.} 
 
1] christains claim to be " cleasend by the blood " of jesus' death on the cross. if so where do you get that idea jesus?

John 15:3 ,3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.{ jesus says we are cleansed by the word NOT the blood of the cross!!}

 John 12:47-50 ,47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."{ here jesus plainly stated the WORD the MESSAGE leads to eternal life not a false sin sacrifice}

also:

Hebrews 10:26 26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, { here is stated no sin sacrifice will save you only knowladge of the truth of the word!}
 
Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, { here those who have been  "enlightened by the heavenly gift of the word of god " are hailed and the " heavenly gift from GOD for salvation is the WORD not jesus' sacrifice!}
 
Hebrews6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. {remember this verse on easter!.} if just by repenting over again " TO OUR LOSS " we crucify him once more and disgraces him. Do we do worse to him by "celebrating " him being on the cross " for us ". How many times must he be crucified? how mush he suffer. How much disgrace must we bring to him. it seems the christain view point by actions is "AS MUCH AS IT TAKES".
 
     2] jesus accused the the jews of not follow the ways of abraham
"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.
do christains follow the ways of abraham? do they pray as abraham does? did abraham pray to and worship  a trinity?did jesus pray to and worship  a trinity? abraham prayed bowed with his face to ground. in the only dicription of jesus praying jesus is said to have "bowed down" and prayed{ john} . do you bow down?
    
3]it's writen HAVE NO OTHERS GODS BUT ME. AND DO NOT RENDER UNTO ME ANY GRAVEN IMAGE OR LIKENESS
and if jesus was god why did he speak of god as someone "other than himself as  the "one who sent me" ? and why did he pray to himself?{ an act of vanity } also by rendering jesus " as an image of god " you break this command!
  
4]and if jesus was THE SON OF GOD why did jesus when accused for blasphemy in john 10:33 jesus defends himself with paslams 82:6? which would state in the context he was using he was no more a son of god than the rest of us.in fact it states we are all gods!{ the qu'ran clairifies this}
 
   5]and if jesus supported THE JEWS AS THE FAVORED why does he talk to them as if they are corrupted? correcting and condeming them at evey turn.  { israelites gods chosen are not all jews. the jews or judens are but one faction.} it's all people of israel whom god chose{ the qu'ran supports this also} not just the jews. and by the way jesus spoke of them and to them certainly not the jewish ribbonic faith.
 
   7]jesus says to beware of those " bringing other teaching then his" does this mean the DOCTRINE OF THE ORIGINAL SIN which was " INVENTED BY IRENAEUS OF LYONS AROUND 150C.E. "and championded by AUGESTINE OF HIPPO.and around the same time THE TRINITY by TERTULLIIAN. why do christains follow these " other teachings-teachers than jesus'? " the so called " on faith alone belief " in others besides jesus,unspoken by jesus and not taught by jesus. was jesus so incomplete in his teachings? matthew 23:10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
peace
leland
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Nazarene - 01 April 2009 at 11:02am
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Quote Nazarene Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2009 at 4:41pm
peace to all
 
thomasd more on barnabas:
How the Gospel of Barnabas Survived PDF Print E-mail
 http://www.barnabas.net/home.html
Sunday, 23 March 2008 09:15
The Gospel of Barnabas was accepted as a Canonical Gospel in the Churches of Alexandria till 325 C.E. Iranaeus (130-200) http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/irenaeus.htmlwrote in support of pure monotheism and opposed Paul for injecting into Christianity doctrines of the pagan Roman religion and Platonic philosophy.  He had quoted extensively from the Gospel of Barnabas in support of his views. This shows that the Gospel of Barnabas was in circulation in the first and second centuries of Christianity. 

    In 325 C.E., the Nicene Council was held, where it was ordered that all original Gospels in Hebrew script should be destroyed. An Edict was issued that any one in possession of these Gospels will be put to death.

     In 383 C.E., the Pope secured a copy of the Gospel of Barnabas and kept it in his private library.

    In the fourth year of Emperor Zeno (478 C.E. ), the remains of Barnabas were discovered and there was found on his breast a copy of the Gospel of Barnabas written by his own hand. (Acia Sanctorum Boland Junii Tom II, Pages 422 and 450. Antwerp 1698) . The famous Vulgate Bible appears to be based on this Gospel.

Pope Sixtus (1585-90) had a friend, Fra Marino. He found the Gospel of Barnabas in the private library of the Pope. Fra  Marino was interested because he had read the writings of Iranaeus where Barnabas had been profusely quoted. The Italian manuscript passed through different hands till it reached "a person of great name and authority" in Amsterdam, "who during his life time was often heard to put a high value to this piece". After his death it came in the possession of J. E. Cramer, a Councillor of the King of Prussia. In 1713 Cramer presented this manuscript to the famous connoisseur of books, Prince Eugene of Savoy. In 1738 along with the library of the Prince it found its way into Hofbibliothek in Vienna. There it now rests.

     Toland, in his "Miscellaneous Works" (published posthumously in 1747), in Vol. I, page 380, mentions that the Gospel of Barnabas was still extant. In Chapter XV he refers to the Glasian Decree of 496 C.E. where "Evangelium Barnabe" is included in the list of forbidden books. Prior to that it had been forbidden by Pope Innocent in 465 C.E. and by the Decree of the Western Churches in 382 C.E.

    Barnabas is also mentioned in the Stichometry of Nicephorus Serial No. 3, Epistle of Barnabas . . . Lines 1, 300.
Then again in the list of Sixty Books
Serial No. 17. Travels and teaching of the Apostles.
Serial No. 18. Epistle of Barnabas.
Serial No. 24. Gospel According to Barnabas.
A Greek version of the Gospel of Barnabas is also found in a solitary fragment. The rest is burnt.

The Latin text was translated into English by Mr. and Mrs. Ragg and was printed at the Clarendon Press in Oxford. It was published by the Oxford University Press in 1907. This English translation mysteriously disappeared from the market. Two copies of this translation are known to exist, one in the British Museum and the other in the Library of the Congress, Washington, DC. The first edition was from a micro-film copy of the book in the Library of the Congress, Washington, DC.

 leland


Edited by Nazarene - 30 March 2009 at 6:52pm
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Quote _ALI_ Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2009 at 9:03am

Salam Thomasd

Sorry for such a long delay. These couple of weeks were busy. I thought I should still reply since the topic is still on the top of the forum page.

You showed that the kingdom of Israel had poor administrative records.

The entire old testament came from  the records of Kingdom of Israel. So I showed that the old testament has poor records. Hence if the records of Israel which you say are faulty say that there was a difference of 7 generations between Nimrod and Abraham, why should I believe it?

I'm not sure what you mean by forced contradiction, though a criticism is equally valid from a non-Muslim or a Muslim (and perhaps more likely). It is the question of misinterpretation which is at issue here, and like I said, I am more than open to correction in this matter

The examples of forced contradictions have been given by you yourself. All of them were not actual contradictions. By forced contradictions, I meant misinterpretation, out of context, misquotation etc.  

One testimony in particular stood out to me. I strongly suggest reading Nabeel Qureshi's story

I did read the story. This "Muslim" was a good Muslim but then he became a Christian because he was in a crowd and he wanted to spot his friends so he asked God to help him. Then God sent a few bright golden and silver streaks so he found his way. Then he had a few dreams and he became a Christian. Now I'm feeling a bit left out here along with millions of Muslims :). Why can't I dream about snakes and crickets or why can't I also dream going away from the mosque?

I would just also to point out that all the stories of "ex-Muslims" are only given in anti Islamic websites. I cannot find a single story of a Muslim becoming a Christian in a neutral site such as christianity.com or any other major Christian forum sites. And stories of Christians becoming Muslims are so common, even this along with many other Islamic forums has ex Christians who have now become Muslims. I personally know a few ex Christians who became Muslim even though I live in a Muslim majority country. But I won't tell you about them since you might not believe me. I will give you an even more authentic story. We have so many Muslim speakers who were Christians. I'll just tell you about them since they are well known. Here is a story of Yousaf Estes, a Christian preacher who was a Christian for 50 years. He made this website

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/Yusuf_story.asp

Here are a few convert stories from his website

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/converts/

I read the story you gave, now I urge you to read the story of Yousaf Estes.

In doing so he condemned his father to hell, rather than teaching him of his error and bringing him into a relationship with God. There are very few sins with more severe consequences then this.
It was a battlefield. 1000 pagans came to finish off 313 Muslims. What was he suppose to do? Allow his father to kill Muslims? What would a group of 313 Christians do when 1000 pagans come to kill them? Would those Christians start preaching?

It still contains the words of God, and while the errors introduced are worth investigation, I not believe they have corrupted the fundamental truth of the Biblical narrative

You admit that errors have been introduced in the book of God. Then how can you say that those fundamental truths were not affected by those errors?

 

Historical analysis. The narrative containing the 7 generation gap and the genealogies predate any tale showing them to be contemporaries by 5 centuries, and predates the account in the Qur'an by more than a millenium.
Bible says there are 7 generation gaps. You say Bible has errors. So that historical analysis you derived from the Bible, why should it be true?

The canonical Gospels and the Torah can both be studied outside of the Bible and show the exact same narrative, and are, in fact, the source of the majority of the Bible. If they are scriptures sent by God (and oddly enough we know the Gospels were not sent down by God, but rather written by men relating the life of Jesus, further contradicting the Qur'an)-

If Bible contradicts Quran, I have no problem with that. But I agree, the gospel you are familiar with are only narratives of the life of Jesus. They are not a book given to Jesus by God. That's the whole point, you guys don't have that book. You have gospel of Mark, Mathew, Luke, John but you don’t have the gospel of Jesus.

 

Mathew 4:23

And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Mark 1:14

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

Luke 4:18

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Which gospel is Jesus preaching? Is it the gospel of Mark, Luke etc? No, since these gospels say that Jesus was preaching the gospel. We believe that Jesus was preaching the gospel translated Injeel revealed to him by God, and you no longer have that gospel he was preaching

-then they must enjoy the same protected status as the Qur'an, for they too are His holy scripture.
Where did you get that idea? Does the Bible says that no scripture of God can be interpolated by man? And it is a fact that Quran certainly does not say that. Quran says that other scriptures were corrupted but God subsequently sent more scriptures for example, after Torah, Injeel/gospel was revealed. But after Quran, no scripture will be revealed hence Quran has that special protection. Thus as the QUran says

015.009 إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ
015.009 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

Al-Qur'an, 015.009 (Al-Hijr [Al-Hijr, Stoneland, Rocky City])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

Oddly enought that's the verse I hear quoted out of context every time I'm debating a Muslim as evidence that the Qur'an can't have been corrupted.
The verse most commonly used by Muslims is 15:9 which I quoted above.
Which is it? Does God's scripture inherently carry protection against corruption or not? If not, the Qur'an is as equally likely to have been changed as the Torah and the Gospels, and if so, the Torah and the Gospels, which are by the Qur'an's own admission also God's scripture, carry the same protection and can not have been corrupted.
As I said, Quran does not say that all scriptures have been protected. Only Quran itself has been protected since no other scripture will come after it. So according to Quran/Islam, Gospel and the Torah we have is not authentic and Quran itself is authentic.
Where does Gabriel come in to the picture. I'm assuming the parentheses mean that the meaning is implied, but I see no other reference to Gabriel in that verse, so I'm not sure how the meaning of  personal pronoun he can be taken from context to mean Gabriel. Immediately before th
at however it refers to one "Mighty in Power" which would seem to be a reference to El Shaddai (God Almighty), and immediately afterwards it DOES refer to Allah.
Let's read the verse again
053.005 عَلَّمَهُ شَدِيدُ الْقُوَى
053.005 He was taught by one mighty in Power,
I looked into the explanation of this verse and the term ShadidulQuwa (really powerful) is used for Gabrael, not God. Gabrael is also strong according to Quran. According to Islam, God did not come down to Earth to teach prophet Muhammad. Gabrael did. Hence it is pretty clear that prophet Muhammad was taught by Gabrael (directly) not God. Hence ShadidulQuwa is Gabrael, not God. God never came down to teach the prophet so I have no idea that you are taking the term ShadidulQuwa to be God.
I don't know Arabic, so you're going to have to (again) explain how Gabriel is being inserted in to this verse
The verse is
081.023 وَلَقَدْ رَآهُ بِالأفُقِ الْمُبِينِ
081.023 And without doubt he saw him in the clear horizon.
In Islam, the prophet never saw God in the clear horizon, he only saw Gabrael. Hence this verse only refers to Gabrael.
It is strange to me then, that if Muhammad saw God, how Christian and Jewish narratives in which God takes shape are attacked by Muslims as being inaccurate.
A  few Muslim believe that prophet Muhammad saw God. Those who disagree with that concept must have attacked Jewish and Christian narratives of God taking shape. And it also depends on the kind of shape God takes. All Muslims agree that God does not take a shape of human beings.
You misunderstand. I believe that the Biblical narrative is fundamentally true, but that because of mistranslation, and occasional errors in record keeping we must examine it closely when portions appear to not make sense and study the original source of that portion of the text.
How can you say that the errors and mistranslations haven't corrupted the original message of the Bible?
The same is true of the Bible ;) Every single law God gave the Israelite people to help them differentiate between clean and unclean only make sense in context of modern medical knowledge.
In the field of medicine, the Bible says in the book of Leviticus, Ch. No.14, Verse No.49 to 53 - it gives a novel way for disinfecting a house from plague of leprosy…  disinfecting a house from plague of leprosy. It says that… ‘Take two birds, kill one bird, take wood, scale it - and the other living bird, dip it in water… and under running water - later on sprinkle the house 7 times with it. 

Sprinkle the house with blood to disinfect against plague of leprosy? We know that blood is a good media of germs, bacteria, as well as toxin. But this is biology according to the Bible. As for modern medical knowledge in the Quran, ever heard of Keith L. Moore He has co-written (with professor Arthur F. Dalley II) Clinically Oriented Anatomy, which is the most popular English-language anatomy textbook in the world, used by scientists, doctors, physiotherapists and students worldwide.(wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_L._Moore).

At a conference in Cairo he presented a research paper and stated:

"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'ân about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah." [1](http://www.islampedia.com/ijaz/Html/Scientist_All/Keith%20L.htm)

Even the call to monogamy makes significantly more sense in the face of certain features of human biochemistry

Let us look at some of the verses from the Old Testament that allow polygamy:

In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.

In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.

In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.

In Deuteronomy 21:15 "If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons...."

There are a lot more verses from the Old Testament that allow polygamy, but I think that the above are sufficient enough to prove my point

and the creation narrative in Genesis 1 when yom is interpreted as a period of time rather than a 24 hour day jives almost perfectly with current scientific understanding of creation
I've copied the following from a debate between Dr. William Campbell and Dr. Zakir Naik on Quran, Bible in the light of Science
In the beginning, 1st Book, Book of Genesis, 1st Ch., it is mentioned - It says… ‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, in six days and talks about a evening and a morning, referring to a 24 - hour day. Today scientists tell us, that the universe cannot be created in a 24 hour period of six days. Qur’an too speaks about six ‘ayyams’. The Arabic word singular is ‘yaum’ plural is ‘ayyam’. It can either mean a day of 24 hours, or it is a very long period, an ‘yaum’, an epoch. Scientists say we have no objection in agreeing that the universe - it could have been created in 6 very long periods. Point No.2 - Bible says in Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses No. 3 and 5,…‘Light was created on the first day.’ enesis, Ch., 1 Verses, 14 to 19… ‘The cause of light - stars and the sun, etc. was created on the fourth day’.  How can the cause of light be created on the 4th day - later than the light which came into existence on the first day? - It is unscientific. Further, the, Bible says Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses 9 to 13… ‘Earth was created on the 3rd day. How can you have a night and day without the earth ?  The day depends upon the rotation of the Earth Without the earth created, how can you have a night and day?  Point No..4, Genesis, Ch. No. 1 Verses 9 to 13 says… ‘Earth was created on the third day.’  Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses 14 to 19 says…‘The Sun and the Moon were created on the fourth day.’ Today science tells us… ‘Earth is part of the parent body… the sun.’ It cannot come into existence before the sun – It is unscientific. Point No. 5, the Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No. 11 to 13…‘The vegetation, the herbs the shrubs, the trees - they were created on the 3rd day And the Sun, Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verses. 14 to 19, was created on the 4th day.How can the vegetation come into existence without sunlight, and how can they survive without sunlight ?
Find me at least 3 mainstream scholars (e.g. not religiously affiliated, not Rashid Rida) who believe that the Gospel of Barnabas is historically authentic (actually written by Barnabas). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas#Textual_history
http://www.chri*****es.de/barnarom.htm (erm...this link seems to have been censored.....I don't know why. it's chris lages (dot) de
http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/Blackhirst_Barnabas.html
It's easy to make claims without a source
.
My source is Quran. Since the gospel of Barnabas is relatively more compatible with Quran, hence according to us Muslims it is relatively more authentic. But Nazarine have given you a detailed account regarding gospel of Barnabas.
What it comes down to is, I question the Qur'an where it contradicts my personal beliefs and am challenging you to answer those questions.
I took that challenge and have replied to your  questions.
As yet, I have been given no convincing reason to accept the Qur'an, and quite a few convincing reasons to accept the Bible, mostly tied to personal experience. For a little background, both of my grandfathers are pastors and former missionaries. My great-grandfather and a great-uncle both were pastors. 2 of my four uncles have spent significant portions of the last 12 years engaged in mission work, my mother's most recent paid job was campus ministry with www.ccci.org/">CCC, and my father is the faculty advisor for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship at one of the most secular liberal arts colleges in the country and is one of the backup preachers at our church for when Pastor Steve is on vacation. So yes, I take my faith very seriously, however part of that faith is the belief that I should strive to have the best understanding of God that I can.
So you are a Christian because you are related to devout Christians. Well if I am a Muslim because I am related to devout Muslims, is that enough reason to be a Muslim? No. My relations don't matter, truth matters. So I have to take each and every scripture claiming to be the word of God and then try to filter them and determine which is the correct word of God. That is what I urge you to do.
Islam claims to have that better understanding, but also contradicts some fundamental Christian teachings that mesh very well with my observations of the world we live in, and that requires significant evidence if am to ever accept it.
Again, if Islam contradicts Christianity, it is not a problem because Muslims believe, along with many Christian historians, that the scriptures of Christianity have not retained their original form.
Most discussions of Islam I've been involved in eventually come down to "I believe the Qur'an because the Qur'an says I should." without any real evidence as to why it should be considered a trustworthy source.
I don't know about your other discussions but in this discussion, I haven't told you to believe in Quran because Quran says you should. I used a method frequently used by many Muslims, I quoted the prescientific knowledge given in the Quran which is a present day miracle.
I'll reply to the rest later if I have time
Peace


Edited by _ALI_ - 12 April 2009 at 9:33am
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