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seekshidayath
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Topic: Questions by Thomas, while studying Qur'a
    Posted: 19 July 2008 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by seekshidayath

No, i did not. But yes, since last month i started studying christianity. I did not enter into that discussions, at an other thread of yours, since am still new it. I shall ask my tutor of it. and let you know soon,I do know the answer to that explanation of Adam, and Jesus's temptations as well, but unable to properly frame up. As said, am new to that study. I shall try my best to let you Islamic thoughts regarding that subject soon, insha Allah [ Allah Wills]


thank you, I am eager to hear what you have to say. I began reading the annotated Qur'an you linked to, and the first disagreement I had was in the commentary for Surah 2:4. (Correct me if this is not the correct way to reference a quote from the Qur'an).


Originally posted by commentary

It is also closed to those who, even if they believe in the need for such guidance, do not consider it necessary to seek it through the channel of revelation and prophethood, but would rather weave their own set of ideas and concepts and regard them as equivalent to Divine Guidance.

it is absolutely essential to be able to reason out the meanings of scripture beyond what is explicitly stated in the text, by looking at historical context, language, and other channels (such as science, for He created the physical laws which govern this universe as well as the spirtual ones) through which God has revealed parts of the nature of his character.


Originally posted by commentary

who acknowledge that this guidance does not come to people individually but reaches them through Prophets and Divine Books

I think that while scripture is key to a working understanding of God, that God also chooses to reveal himself to people on an individual basis as they grow in their faith.

Originally posted by commentary

but are devotees of Truth alone, and are therefore prepared to submit to Divine Guidance wherever it be found.

this I agree with completely, and find it to be contradictory to the first 2 pieces I quoted from the commentary. Faith and reason are tied hand in hand for we do not serve a God who's decisions are arbitrary, and to say that one must rely on faith alone and then to say "seek truth wherever it can be found" is a blatant contradiction.
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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seekshidayath
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2008 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by seekshidayath



thank you, I am eager to hear what you have to say.
 
I had been trying since 3 days to get that person, but he's very busy. Insha Allah, shall try my best to get my answers thru him soon.
 
I began reading the annotated Qur'an you linked to, and the first disagreement I had was in the commentary for Surah 2:4. (Correct me if this is not the correct way to reference a quote from the Qur'an).

Yes, you are correct. We refer so. While verbal, we say, Surah 2 , ayah 4.
 
Surah is chapter  and ayah is verse.
Originally posted by commentary

It is also closed to those who, even if they believe in the need for such guidance, do not consider it necessary to seek it through the channel of revelation and prophethood, but would rather weave their own set of ideas and concepts and regard them as equivalent to Divine Guidance.

it is absolutely essential to be able to reason out the meanings of scripture beyond what is explicitly stated in the text, by looking at historical context, language, and other channels (such as science, for He created the physical laws which govern this universe as well as the spirtual ones) through which God has revealed parts of the nature of his character.
 
Firstly, thomas, let me clear you that am not a scholar to give answers nearing perfection, though i shall try my best to answer you. Secondly, if any of our other members can answer more better than mine, can kindly post there's. And if you still have doubts from them, you shud not feel tired of asking them.
 
Now coming to your first question from the commentary of the verse you were reading :
 
(2:4) who believe in the Book We have sent down to you (i.e. the Qur'an) and in the Books sent down before you,
 
In this verse and the verses above, Allah swt, describes the attributes of believers. One of them is the belief in the Book which Allah swt has sent it thru Prophet Muhammad { Sallal lahu alayhi wa sallam} and other Books sent  by Allah swt. We believe that Allah swt revealed other Books too.
 
This guidance is closed for those, who though believe that there is need of revelation, but refuse to seek guidance thru revelations. They set up there own ideas and beliefs. As you said, that its necessary to reason out the meanings of text of the scripture --. Yes, thats true. You can reason out the text to Qur;an and thus study it that way. The commentaries, all we find are resulted that way as you said. They were / are studied , thru looking at the context of the verse, --- etc. But all this shud be viewed and studied thru the Book revealed thru Prophets. Our own set of ideas cannot be called as revelation of guidance from Allah swt.
 
Originally posted by commentary

who acknowledge that this guidance does not come to people individually but reaches them through Prophets and Divine Books

I think that while scripture is key to a working understanding of God, that God also chooses to reveal himself to people on an individual basis as they grow in their faith.
 
I shall answer you after getting my answer confirmed.
Originally posted by commentary

but are devotees of Truth alone, and are therefore prepared to submit to Divine Guidance wherever it be found.

this I agree with completely, and find it to be contradictory to the first 2 pieces I quoted from the commentary. Faith and reason are tied hand in hand for we do not serve a God who's decisions are arbitrary, and to say that one must rely on faith alone and then to say "seek truth wherever it can be found" is a blatant contradiction.
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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abuzaid
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Quote abuzaid Replybullet Posted: 19 July 2008 at 9:36pm
who acknowledge that this guidance does not come to people individually but reaches them through Prophets and Divine Books
I think that while scripture is key to a working understanding of God, that God also chooses to reveal himself to people on an individual basis as they grow in their faith.
 
First and foremost point here is common sense..
 
Absolute truth is one and only...
 
10 people believe that they get direct guidance from God and almost all of them are contradicting with each other. Whom shall we trust now?
Another point is, how do we distinguish between our own imagination and revelation of God. If you believe in satan it could be revelation from satan as well. So, how do we distinguish?
But as per Prophets, their lives and their influence on humanity is a proof of what they were.
 
Now you may say that revelation of God in major religion is also contradicting, so we can't trust on revelations on Prophets also. We do not believe that. We beleive that all the Prophets brought same basic message. In fact those non-prophets who claimed to get direct guidance from God changed the actual religion (remember st. paul).
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seekshidayath
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2008 at 6:10pm
JazakAllahu khayr brother,
 
Hope thomas ponders over it.
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Quote thomasd Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2008 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by abuzaid


10 people believe that they get direct guidance from God and almost all of them are contradicting with each other. Whom shall we trust now?

Another point is, how do we distinguish between our own imagination and revelation of God. If you believe in satan it could be revelation from satan as well. So, how do we distinguish?

I am referring more to the use of using reason to better understand and clarify the meaning of the guidance he has already given us, this should be a constant process of refining our understanding of him. As imperfect beings we will never have a perfect understanding of the God we serve, but we can always strive to better that understanding.

But as per Prophets, their lives and their influence on humanity is a proof of what they were.

 

Now you may say that revelation of God in major religion is also contradicting, so we can't trust on revelations on Prophets also. We do not believe that. We beleive that all the Prophets brought same basic message. In fact those non-prophets who claimed to get direct guidance from God changed the actual religion (remember st. paul).

in the Old Testament, God actually gave criteria to the Jewish people by which they could evaluate whether or not people were actually prophets or not. if a single prediction made by someone claiming to be a prophet was shown to be false they were executed.
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Quote abuzaid Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2008 at 8:04am
Originally posted by thomasd

I am referring more to the use of using reason to better understand and clarify the meaning of the guidance he has already given us, this should be a constant process of refining our understanding of him. As imperfect beings we will never have a perfect understanding of the God we serve, but we can always strive to better that understanding.
 
I am not talking about understanding God!! Even after getting direct message from God we can't have complete understanding of God for the same reason you have mentioned (imperfect being!)
 
I was only talking about understanding of what God wants from us!! Your idea of using human intelligent may be good only if nobody have claimed to receieve message from God. If there are humans who claimed to have received message from God and indeed there are! should not we use our intelligent to verify their claims??
 
If God asks us, Why did you rejected messenger I chose? is not it better to keep an answer ready?
 
Originally posted by thomasd

in the Old Testament, God actually gave criteria to the Jewish people by which they could evaluate whether or not people were actually prophets or not. if a single prediction made by someone claiming to be a prophet was shown to be false they were executed.
 
Prophetic era of Israel is gone! for last 1400 years only two personalities in question are Jesus and Mohammed.. PBUH.
It is of no use to strive for general rulings.
 
If you have a reason to reject Prophethood of Jesus PBUH or accept divinity of Jesus PBUH, keep it ready we are all answerable to God.
In the same way if you have solid reason based on concrete criteria to reject Prophethood of Mohammed PBUH, you have to present it to Lord of heaven and earth.
 
We as muslim believe that any reason to reject Prophethood of Mohammed PBUH will be proved false on the day of judgement.
 
In Islam avoidance is a form rejection.
 


Edited by abuzaid - 22 July 2008 at 8:07am
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Quote thomasd Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2008 at 8:42am
Originally posted by abuzaid

I am not talking about understanding God!! Even after getting direct message from God we can't have complete understanding of God for the same reason you have mentioned (imperfect being!)

Every messenger sent by God is sent for one reason, to convey knowledge of God's will for us, so that we may be able to better understand him, and through that better understanding, better our ability to serve Him.

 
Originally posted by abuzaid

If there are humans who claimed to have received message from God and indeed there are! should not we use our intelligent to verify their claims??

That is exactly what I'm talking about, whenever someone claims to receive a message from God that claim must be verified. By the same measure however, we must also use reason to more fully understand the messages which God has already sent, and I believe that this too is a form of divine guidance, which is equally important as faith.

Originally posted by abuzaid

Prophetic era of Israel is gone! for last 1400 years only two personalities in question are Jesus and Mohammed.. PBUH.
It is of no use to strive for general rulings

We do not serve an arbitrary God who says one thing one day and another the next. Time is irrelevant to him. The laws he gave then are equally as valid as the laws he gave now. The cultural applications of those laws may be different, but they have not changed. To quote J.R.R. Tolkien, 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men.'
 
Originally posted by abuzaid

If you have a reason to reject Prophethood of Jesus PBUH or accept divinity of Jesus PBUH, keep it ready we are all answerable to God.
In the same way if you have solid reason based on concrete criteria to reject Prophethood of Mohammed PBUH, you have to present it to Lord of heaven and earth.

The claims of Jesus and the claims of Mohammed can not both be true, and thus far in my life I have seen much stronger evidence to support the claims of Jesus.
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Quote peacelovedarfur Replybullet Posted: 28 July 2008 at 3:37pm
to the best of our understanding we can try to verify Gods messages to his people who had been misguided and ignorant for he has given us much proof of his intelligence and existence but as for distinguishing between messages with minor changes which cause the greatest of drifts and seperation in belief it is extremely hard which is understandable. Islam is a religion of submission, and its prominance is found in so many situations one of which is accepting the truth even while the people might try and be extremely convincing in their personal belief and your eyes and head which in reason, are far less than that of the knowledge of God and his guidance, may sway you but it is the submission that makes you a muslim: the submission to one God and his messengers and their universal message. Another amazing thing i learned is that saying yes, or submitting, destroys the ego and allows you to see what is and be open to the world, to be apart of it rather than seperate and full of worry such guidance is a blessing and God knows all as to what is best for us. Otherwise I agree with you :) and that quote was very nice
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