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kim!
 
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Quote kim! Replybullet Posted: 27 June 2005 at 3:57pm

Dude, why the surprise? We sit here in our foreign countries minding our own business and it appears that the US is trying to take everything over.

I have nothing against you, but occasionally you have to expect some venting.

Truly, it's ok, I actually have American friends and I'm polite in company. Mostly.  ;)

 

Kim...

 

 

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Quote Astrophysicist Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2005 at 5:16am

Hi, Kim and Whisper:

To whip up anti-American hatred, blood-thirsty fanatics blame the U.S. for everything and or, if it serves their purposes, its opposite. No, most Muslims are not like them. But is does not take many today to turn the Planet Earth into Hell with their kind of blind hatefulness.

Never mind the easliy proved fact that, among non-Muslim nations, it was UN officials and the French and Russians, mostly, who supported Saddam and campaigned on his behalf and profited from his continued presence. Still the Islamo-fascists blame the U.S. for letting Saddam stay in power and murder and starve Iraqis -- bin Laden cites this as a reason for his 9/11 atrocity.

So, the U.S. shows that it doesn't control the UN, removes Saddam, ships in billions in food and infrastructure repair, and we try to give the Iraqis a political system that will protect the lives and rights of Iraqi citizens without us having to be there. That is, we give them what the fanatics say that they want. Now these same fanatics use thier unholy spin-machine to turn THIS act of charity into a cause for anger and hatred to feed their war-pride and blood lust. (Look at a map of the world and note that the butchery of fanatical Muslim expansionism is behind most of the wars being fought today.)

The pattern is obvious. As has been the case from the beginning of Islam, there is this core of depraved people who will invent any excuse to export their primitive and blood-thirsty cultish version of Islam and try to make the rest of the world as miserable as they are.

And they write about how terrible we English-speaking people are. Do they know that Muslims attacked and overran vast reaches of Christiandom hundreds of years before the "Crusades"? Do they know that Arab Muslims brought the African slave trade to the Europeans? Do they know that we English-speaking people outlawed the slave trade centuries ago, even fought a war in the U.S. to end it, while slavery is still in practice in some African and Arab-Muslim lands today?

All peoples of the world have erred at times. But we have been correcting our flaws for many centuries and now have a mostly good and decent and open-minded society. I wish I could say the same for the Islamic world. Perhaps someday....

By the way, my brother-in-law is a Muslim from an immigrant Muslim family. He is a judge in an American court of law. His older brother is a pediatrician (doctor of medicine for children). Both still practice Islam and love America. And they are typical of their immigrant family, who include business owners and teachers and other productive members of American society. So, there is tangible proof that your prejudices, Whisper, are all wrong. Not that it is likely to matter to you: I have little doubt that you will still be able to invent some excuse to want Americans killed. It seems to be your way.

I will pray for you.

Astro

 



Edited by Astrophysicist
1. We each bring the Universe into being in the act of perceiving it, but perception is not reality.

2. The medium IS the message, so a true religion of peace cannot be spread by threat of war.
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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2005 at 6:47am

Peace to all,

I would like to make a (brief) statement on this discussion (although politics is certainly not my main interest or area of expertise).

It seems that both sides are refusing to recognize the subtlies in eachothers arguments, and are simply "falling back" to the baracades or fanaticism. If a thing is worth doing, it's worth doing right!

As an American, I would say that 1.) I love my country (but not my government) and would die to defend my country (i.e., land, people) if attacked, but not the current administration or the particular political system that is in place today. Does this make me a patriot or a traitor?

Anything that is man-made certainly contains flaws in it. The American patriotic fervor of today tends to ignore the obvious flaws in the system, and focus on the positive aspects (and there are quite a few) of our current political system. I find this tendency especially strong among the neo-conservatives of today (although I'm not labeling anyone).

Most Americans do not care much about either politics or foreign policy. Anyone who doubts this, just look at what t.v. shows are on early Sunday morning (few people watching) vs. Prime Time (many people watching). The reason is that most problems of the typical American are social and financial problems (i.e., family problems, under-employment, alchoholism, drug-addiction, etc.). People are interested to learn about what effects them, and politics has NO effect on the life of the average American family.

Any American who did a internet search on "Iraq", "Middle-East", "Vietnam", etc. would quickly realize that the news they are getting from CNN or ABC lacks even the most elementary degree of depth, analysis or perspective. The reason that this "intellectual cotton-candy" is consumed by so many is because 1.) they have little interest in the subject and 2.) they have a (mistaken) belief that there government is only doing what is in there interest.

Rather then trying to "indoctrinate" others, we should encourage eachother to read and study these issues with an open mind. When I hear Astro (for example) group Al-Qeada terrorists and "Ayatollahs" as if there is no relevent difference between them, I know where he is getting his information from (i.e., The Rand Corp and American Heritage Foundation). When I see Whisper and Kim "painting with sucha broad brush" and assuming everyone who disagrees with them is a neo-con, I also see where their info is coming from.

Let's all try to be a little more academic and less reactionary. Thanks.

Peace!

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Quote Astrophysicist Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2005 at 9:15am

Hi, Ali:

Thank you for your thoughtful and constructive post and critique.

I must point out that my views do not come from the American Heritage Foundation or the Rand Corp. I am a free thinker. I am not a robot or parrot, nor am I a gullible fool , my friend! I have many years of experience reading and watching the world unfold. My views come from my own readings of various histories, philosophical tracts, posts in places like this, from a critical reading of various news media, and from my own personal connection with God (which is always subject to skeptical review and critique, of course).

My views about Ayatollahs come from reading "Islamic Government" by Ayatollah Khomeini. Here is a lovely quote from a part of that tract in which he quotes the Qu'ran and then goes on to interpret what the passage means in practical terms:

God's messenger is a just ruler. If he orders that a position be occupied or that a corrupting group of people be wiped out, he rules justly because if he fails to do so, he would be violating justice, and because his rule is always in harmony with the requirements of the interests of Moslems, rather than with the requirements of human life in its entirety. (p. 66, Manor Mooks, New York, 1979)

Khomeini then goes on to explain that, in the absence of Muhammad, the imams (also referred to as "those in charge") must be obeyed as would the messenger. He thereby gives himself and his like the sole authority to order "that a corrupting group of people be wiped out."

The narrow-minded and perverse rhetoric of "those in charge" today makes it quite clear who they imagine this "corrupting group" is. You might be surprised to learn that, as a generous and God-serving American, I do resent being so labelled and targeted. But do forgive me if I decide, after enough of this trash talk from the Muslim world, to encourage my government to protect me from evil megalomaniacs of that sort!

Peace.

Astro

1. We each bring the Universe into being in the act of perceiving it, but perception is not reality.

2. The medium IS the message, so a true religion of peace cannot be spread by threat of war.
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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 29 June 2005 at 8:20am

Peace to Astro,

Coming from your perspective, I understand how you came to this conclusion regarding the subject of "Wilayt Al'Faqih" or (The leadership of the jurists) that you did. I can assure you, however, that your conclusion is a result of an inadequate understanding of these issues.

This is a subject of much debate and discussion (even among the Shia), and not all Ayatollahs agrees that the concept of Wilayat Al'Fiquih is supported in Islam, nor that the Iranian understanding of Islamic government is the only "template" for all other such projects. Even Grand Ayatollah Ali Al-Sistani (who does not support the concept of Wilayat Al"Faqih) would also object to your critisism of it.

In order to understand the doctrinal arguments for and against Wilayat Al'Faqih, you must have certain "pre-requisite knowledge" (i.e., the Islamic concept of the authority of the Prophet, the authority of the Imams, etc.) as well as a general understanding of the position of the Prophets to Allah (s.w.a.), and the position of the Prophets to their Umma (followers).

Having said this, however, this has nothing to do with whether or not you have anything to fear from "The Ayatollahs". As history testifys to, despite Imam Khomeni being given this position by the people of Iran, he never ordered a jihad against anyone. The only military action taken by Iran since 1979 is to defend it's borders against Iraqi attacks under Saddam. So if the U.S. is spending money to defend against a potential attack by the Islamic Republic, I think our tax dollars could be better spend elsewhere (as Iran has never attacked or threatened to attack the U.S.).

Peace.

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2005 at 12:12am
Brother wish there were just a few more like you to spread a bit of peace in that land of nuerosis where everyone feels that everyone in the world is ot to get them. Is it because we think everyone else to be just exactly as we are?
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2005 at 7:31am

For goodness sake, please, at least don't pray for me. I promise you I am just a silly innocent Afghan. I don't deserve any American kindness!! They have ever been so kind to us all these few decades.

 

How did you guess?

Are you a psychic? You are absolutely right. I have had a very one sided education. The English boarding schools, they say, really teach you nothing. They are just a bit one sided.

Is that what you meant?

 

How many sided education do you have in the states? Is it more than just is required for making, counting and spending dollars?

 

Once met two American uni girls who thought Singapore was a city in China. They could not show me Egypt on the globe in their banker dad's study.

 

You make me laugh as if Neo-Con were just my invention?

Isn’t it something that got currency since our “Great American Century” project? Plus, what’s wrong about being a Neo-Con when you serve their cause far better than any of them ever could?

 

Let me put you the same question:

“what real tangible good the U S has given the world lately?”

Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Mai Lai or Falluja? Bagram, Abu Gharaib, Gitmo? Or just all those other torture centres across the world?

 

Do you ever ask yourself “why has our admin managed to fill the world (not just the Muslim world but the entire human race across the globe) with such hatred?

Instead of wondering why do they hate us?

 

I was almost like an American in my youth, the Connie Francis “High Society” generation. I am even today on the board of four US companies. I lived just the other side of the Detroit River – Windsor (Ont) before moving to a wee more humane Spain.

 

I always thought the US would correct its injustices and such stupid mistakes. But, thanks to your Fascist Admin that they showed me the reality in an absolute light of the day and I now believe that the US are global blood suckers.

 

What history are we referring to?

You mean history started just in 1776? I will discuss history of other peoples with you the day you show that you know just a wee bit about your own history. Not about the whole of it but let’s say just about your country’s deeds in the past 60 years.

 

Shall I put the same question to you?

Have you considered the possibility that much of what you think you know to be true is really an illusion or a mere American Dream Machine at play?

 

Your Hans Blix statement is not even a half-truth.

It’s just an out and out lie. Everyone in the world knows what he has said before and after the war.

 

I told you you have great sense of humour.

Your military is trusted in Iraq - mean Eyerak? You mean other than just by Ayad Allawi and 23 other men of the CIA imported variety?

 

Next you will tell me that people love being occupied. Eyrakis in fact staged Abu Gharaib because they just wanted so much to be sodomised by those tall, good looking, blue eyed Americans? And, after all that sexy party the people of Eyerak are now lining the streets of Bagdad (promise, I won't breath a word about Falluja!) with Magnolia garlands, singing hymns of Dick the Chainy, Ronald Dumbsfeld and must not forget that dear old Texas Kid.

(Not Texas Kid the colt I had when I was fifteen but the other one!)

 

Didn’t I tell you your sense of humour makes me roll in laughter? And, you are saying all that at a time when even your own generals and the Pentagon have begun to see the reality for what it is and have started parleys with the FREEDOM FIGHTERS?

(By the way, why the so freedom loving Americans are ever so scared of the “Freedom Fighter”?) Never been able to work that out.

 

Sir, deceit is a “White Wash House” and the Downing Street speciality. Imagine if they can deceive their own people so how much they must have scammed the others in all these years?

Just sit up. Don’t smoke what you smoke that particular day. And, just think for a change. I may be asking too much of an American but we can all think on an odd day if we just put in just a wee bit of effort.

 

US is the midwife of Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda was born when the US occupied Saudi Arabia. You occupied Iraq (sorry, I mean Eyerak) and Afgaanistan just to multiply Al-Qaeda. Did you see the CIA report of 16th June?

 

Sometimes I am tempted to feel that the Pentagon have a Joint Venture with Al-Qaeda.

 

Can you swear upon your honour that you spent your dollars in the Kuwait campaign? Then why did the Japanese, the Saudis, the Gulf states have to pay for it? And, how come the US made a $1.23 BILLION net profit out of this undertaking?

 

Perhaps you know better?

Or you think that you know better.

 

You are absolutely right.

Your admin didn’t lie to you.

They have just held the truth back from you.

 

I am a flyer. Have held a PPL for 42 years.

I know that BILLIONS of your dollars have been spent to put in place the best single security system in the entire world

        to INTERCEPT and bring down any plane that goes off course

        in 8 (EIGHT) minutes

        any where in the length and the breadth of the US of A.

Why were those aircraft allowed to dance 9/11 for a whole 58 and 76 minutes respectively?

 

Kindly, just answer the question without feeding us that huge dose of words you spin merely to cover up for the quality lacking in your posts.

 

What do you know of my belief system?

Do you always jump to conclusions just like that?

What makes you think that I am a Muslim with a name like Sasha?

 

Or, are you trying to tell me that all the people in the world are Americans and fail to think unless the TV tells them to or when some Self Help book drops a clue for them?

 

The Europeans and a lot of the world that has been in touch with the Muslims or, with Islam tend treat this typically U S and Israeli affliction as a vulgarity. Well, we take quite a few other American things as vulgarities, but this one has become a major concern to us - since the US has started to shatter the security of the entire world by promoting terrorism with her half-baked policies for the sake of sheer wanton cowboy show of strength.

 

We have no use for deceit at all in our lives.

We leave it to the State Department and their lackey Brit Foreign Office.

 

You seem to be deluding about the facts on the ground.

 

Your own Secretary of State admitted just last Thursday that your admin had practiced a Policy of “exceptionalism” in the Mid East. They placed, maintained and supported tyrants in the entire region with the obvious connivance of the Brits

– for their own interests.

 

U S can’t afford to allow democracies in strategic countries.

It’s easier to “do business” with one man without involving the people of that land. Do you know where is Uzbekistan?

Do you know they boil their opponents and shoot people in the streets by the thousands if they seek anything civil or sheer basic human rights? All with absolute U S support.

 

You must know Egypt?

In Arabic we call it Masr. $3,000,000,000 of your tax money is paid each year to keep a monster Inc type of a tyrant there. It has been paid for the past 22 years. He has been killing, torturing people with nothing other than Amreeki support.

 

The US has been bleeding the Muslim world for decades and now when the Muslims have begun to wake up to the reality of their world being looted, pillaged and even occupied by the filthy cultureless Americans, you cry foul?

 

Those with brilliant history never need to re-write it.

I will talk to you about my history the day you show a wee knowledge of your own history.

 

Sir shall we talk about culture say in the next 645 years as it will take you at least as long to grow a bit of your own culture?

Right now, your entire contribution to the mankind remains a MacBurger and the Smart Bomb.

Sorry, forgot the Chewing Gum.

 

Okay you tell me: “what tangible good have you had to offer the world recently?”

Other than Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Or Mai Lai? Most recently, Abu Gharaib? No, Gitmo I suppose. Aging a bit by now. Sorry, just forgot Palestine. How much you contribute each year in person to support the Israel land grab, demolition of poor homes and shooting three year old little cute girls?

 

Do you know how much you contribute for that each day?

Use a calculator. It’s quite simple. Take $3,000,000,000 and divide it by 360 and then by the number of your population on that day. You will get the exact amount you are paying to kill, maim, dispossess and create a human atrocity. 

 

Sir, I will request you to spare us any remarks about Spain.

Have you ever been there other than as a tourist? The Muslims, Jews and Christians together created one of the most beautiful civilisations in human history. This could not have been possible without the peace and harmony these communities enjoyed together. You know nothing about how the Andaluz feel about their unique heritage.

 

Sorry, Sir, I stand corrected.

Your President had said: “A war without an end”.

What a dream of Cap It All ism. No need to find a new enemy every ten or so years.

 

Do you ever read any serious American publications like the “Harpers” magazine? No wonder you know very little about the American reality on many things like the health care and a total disaster on other corporate scams.

 

No. You are just mistaken on the “blood-thirsty fanatics” blame the U.S. for everything. If that’s the case then 96.2% Spaniards, 91.6% French and just over 86% Germans must be “blood thirsty fanatics”. And, 67% Brits.

 

Every invader in the world has always had better or similar excuses to the ones now being spun by your war machine. I know why your boys are in Afghanistan and Eyerak.

 

Do you really want to know?

After reading your absolutely raw, biased, vulgar and absolutely baseless comments on Islam and Muslims I am convinced that you don’t need me to make you understand something. You need proper care and attention to step out of such a condition.

 

Best wishes
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Quote ansari41 Replybullet Posted: 02 July 2005 at 1:18am

Dear astrophysist,

 

Your posts were very impressive!

 

Incidentally, what were you talking about? Even after reading more than once, I could not understand what you were trying to say. What I guessed was that you were trying to say that (1) America and the Americans are the best of/in everything, and (2) Islam and the Muslims are the worst. Is that what you were really trying to say?

 

You also did a lot of bragging about America. I really don’t understand what there is about America to brag about. If you tell me that America is the richest on earth, I will agree with you. And tell me that America is the most powerful on earth, yes, I will agree with you, too. Unfortunately, with these two superlatives, it became a curse to the whole world. What else is there to brag about America?

 

I used to hear Americans boast about America’s foreign aid. But they forget that America is not the only country that provides foreign aid. There are many rich countries that do the same. But what America does is different. America does not provide any aid to any country without attaching a string. When the other countries provide aid quietly, without much of a hassle, what America provides, minus the string that is attached with it, is highlighted over and over again by the western media. It gives an impression that America provides a lot of foreign aid, without which the whole world is going to crumble. But in actual fact, it is a different story. In 2002, the rich countries in the world have given a total of $58 billion worth of aid to the poor countries, of which $13.3 billion came from the US government, the richest country on earth. According to the OECD, the US is often considered a stingy government donor. The US gives more than one third of its foreign aid to Israel, which in turn is used to annihilate the Palestinians. Therefore, in effect, its foreign aid for 2002 was about $8 billion. That is the real aid it gives to other countries. But even that is refused by some countries because of the tie-ups.

 

You were talking about the Iraqi dictator. He was a dictator to the people of Iraq only. According to the Western media, he killed some of his own people. It could be true. But what’s about America! It is a nuisance, a bully and trouble maker to the whole world. Who dares stand against it? It tries to control the whole world. It is the only real terrorist nation. Saddam only dictated his country, but America is dictating the whole of the third world countries. Nobody dares do anything that will displease America. Would you disagree with these facts? If that is reality, what would you call America?

 

U.S. as a Vessel of God’s Goodness – and that’s the heading of your post. Let’s have a look at the vessel:

 

NUMBER OF PEOPLE AMERICANS KILLED:

In Afghanistan

          civilians : more than 3500 (the actual figure will never be known)

 

soldiers: who were defending their country from the invading Americans – 15 000

 

In Iraq              

civilians: more than 35 000  (mostly women and children) during the 1st Bushwar.

 

: more than 13 000 (mostly women and children) during the 2nd Bushwar.

 

Soldiers who were defending their motherland from invading Americans: 100,000

 

                          ABOUT 50% OF ALL CIVILIAN DEATHS were children.

 

In Vietnam:

          Civilians: 1.5 million to 4 million (the real figure will never be known)

 

 

AMERICA DESTROYED 80% of Iraqi military capacity in 1991 (according to the US claim)

 

AMERICA DROPPED 100 MILLION POUNDS OF AGENT ORANGE and other herbicide in Vietnam during the Vietnam War.

 

AMERICANS BURIED ALIVE about 6000 retreating Iraqi soldiers during the 1st Bushwar in 1991.

 

AMERICANS WERE BOMBING IRAQ continuously for 26 years.

 

AMERICAN-LED COALITION dropped 177 million pounds of explosives on Iraq during the 1st Bushwar.

 

AMERICAN AND BRITISH PILOTS dropped 20 million pounds of explosives between December1998 and September 1999.

 

AMERICAN AND BRITISH PILOTS dropped an estimated 200 million pounds of explosives on Iraq since the start of Operation Iraqi Invasion in March 2003.

 

 AMERICAN AND BRITISH LED (UN imposed) SANCTIONS IN IRAQ

 

          IRAQ HAS LIVED UNDER economic sanctions for 12 years

 

NUMBER OF IRAQIS DIED through 1999 due to UN sanctions: 1.5 million

 

NUMBER OF UN WEAPONS INSPECTIONS conducted in Iraq in November – December 1998: 300

 

NUMBER OF UN WEAPONS INSPECTIONS conducted in Iraq in 2003: 500.

IN CONTRAST

NUMBER OF UN WEAPONS INSPECTIONS ISRAEL HAS ever allowed: 0.
NUMBER OF UN RESOLUTIONS
ISRAEL VIOLATED through 1992: More than 65.
NUMBER OF UN RESOLUTIONS ON
ISRAEL THAT U.S. VETOED between 1972 and 1990:
More than 30.

NUMBER OF NUCLEAR WARHEADS U.S. HAS: More than 10,000.
NUMBER OF NUCLEAR WARHEADS
ISRAEL HAS: More than 400.

 

These are the contents of the 1st container from your vessel. Is it necessary to open the other containers?

 

Ansari

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