IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: THE CREED OF THE SHI’AISM

Author

Message

rami
Male Islam
Senior Member

Senior Member

Joined: 01 March 2000
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2550

Posted: 24 June 2005 at 8:39am

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

Some of the Guidlines you should consider br, and posting the above is certainly in breach of them, please be more carfull next time.

1. We manage here an Islamic discussion board, thus all members are requested to maitain the deorum as per the standards of an Islamic cultural society. Any joke, or casual statement which the moderators find insensitive, may result in edition or deletion.

2. A generally pleasant demeanor and cordiality in language is requested during discussions.

10. We will not tolerate personal attacks on participants from ANY Community (personal attacks are defined as comments that reflect upon the person instead of their opinion). Furthermore, any insults intended to ANY religion or ANY prophet of God, or ANY holy scripture shall be removed.

13. We request you not to post URLs of sites the sole existence of which is to slander a religion or spread lies about it.

18. If any board member is found inadequate in observing any of the above rules, he/she may be prompted once, twice or thrice by the moderators before denying him/her all access to discussion boards in future.

19.Your participation in discussion forums is a privilege and not a right. "Free Speech" here means that you don't pay for speaking your mind as opposed to any other belief(s) you might have. We reserve the right to remove any comment or comments that are not in line with the above rules, without giving reasons, notifications or explanations to anyone.

Discussing an aspect of shia beliefe is one thing, outright Takfir of Shia is not acceptable.

Edited by rami

Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

IP Logged

Ayubi1187

Groupie
Groupie

Joined: 06 December 2001
Location: Somalia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 69

Posted: 24 June 2005 at 8:53am

Originally posted by Ali Zaki

Alhamdullila!

They have revealed their true face (the Salafi's and Wahabbi's) and IT HAS BECOME CLEAR WHO IS CREATING THE FITNA IN THE UMMA OF RASULALLAH (A.S.).

For anyone who is interested in an actual Sunni-Shia dialogue from two respected scholars of their day, please see http://al-islam.org/murajaat/index.htm. This presents (and discusses) the ACTUAL differences between Sunni and Shia.

So the classical scholar named by shakur are all wahabi and salafi?

Dont refer people to deception. This duologue never happen between Selim al-Bashri and the lier. The most oddest things is how Selim all the time is singing the praises of the Shia scholar. And the speed this letter arrives between the two different countrys in 1910. Its imaginary dialog like the peshawar night pure deception.

IP Logged

Ayubi1187

Groupie
Groupie

Joined: 06 December 2001
Location: Somalia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 69

Posted: 24 June 2005 at 9:12am

Originally posted by Ali Zaki

Br. Shakur,

We do not reject ALL of the hadith in Muslim or Bukhari, however, we do not accept them as Saheeh. In general, The Shia do not accept any collection of hadith as being Saheeh (except, possibly, Al-Kafi) and the only book that is relied upon 100% is the Holy Quran. This idea that an ENTIRE BOOK can not be criticized (other then Quran) is not supported by Quran, Sunnah or Hadith. The Shia science of hadith collects hadith, categorizes them and but them all (with their chains of naration) in a collection. This collection is continously re-evaluated by scholars and discussed.

For those who believe that Muslim and Buhkari do not contain false hadith (and hadith the support Imam Ali (a.s.) as the first Caliph), please see http://al-islam.org/ask/8.html (which includes direct quotes from these two books that can be verified by anyone).

Shia science of hadith? categorizes them? continuously re-evaluated ?
Where do this shia live on the moon?.[moderator edited]Murajaat and Peshawar night is good example and lets as not forget the Nahjul balagha speeches attributed to Imam Ali(ra).

as the forum guidlines state, we do not allow personel attacks.rami.

Edited by rami

IP Logged

rami
Male Islam
Senior Member

Senior Member

Joined: 01 March 2000
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2550

Posted: 24 June 2005 at 9:32am

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

some shia are outright kaafirs

as are some so called sunnis like - ahmadiya and qadiyaani

The Shia are made up of different groups, i have read that some would be considered kafir but i dont know to much about it. the Main Shia group are muslim according to the majority of Sunni scholars, there have been heretical people among them but you have to be carefull between this and outright takfir of All shia.

Are you saying there is nothing that can nullify shahada?

Do you seriously think i believe that? The minimum to be considered a muslim in islam is believing Allah is one and Muhamad is his prophet. The only sin Allah wont forgive is shirk.

This fatwas cannot be applied on individuals but it can be applied on shiism and the one who follows its teachings 100%. There is many shia who dont by the idea of hidden imam or that sahaba become apostates or that todays quran is not the same as in prophets(saw) time. And in many shia community's the majority have always seen muta as something ugly.

This is not a fatwa only a scholar who has Ijaza is Qualified to give legal rulings in Islam. This is a bunch of staments taken out of context of time period and place and put together with the opinions of the auther. please have some respect for islamic scholarship and authority.

br Ali Zaki not every sunni scholar ageed that Bukhari or muslim were sahih i dont know any which said they contained false ahadith. The majority and the concensus among scholars is that they are Sahih, i sugest you look at sunni methodology of clasifying ahadith not the atempt by this site which is an insult realy to scholarship as it ignores all methodology imam Bukhari and muslim formulated to clasify hadith in there colection. How can you comment on the works and ignore the methadology used to complie it.

It is only a critisism of people Shia dislike nothing else, where is the scholarship in that.

I do not trust the site you contiunualy refrence, the argument they present and the sources have yet to be proven reliable. Many shia books are delibratly worded in such a manner br it is manipulative as it leaves no room in the persons mind to make up his own judgment it lacks impartiality while pretending to be fair by presenting sunni "evidence" against sunni's with shia interpretation of what the sunni's are saying rather than what is being said.

The clasicc example is the hadith in Bukhari about ahl al bayt, The understanding of these ahadith by sunni's is not the same as shia so how can simply having a hadith which you interprate a certain way be proof that the scholar is somehow agreeing with you?

we have many comentarie's, tafsir, on these works clearly explaing what is meant by them.

you may like to have a look at the following.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/

Edited by rami

Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

IP Logged

Ali Zaki

Senior Member

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217

Posted: 24 June 2005 at 10:10am

Salam alakum Br. Rami,

I appreciate your comments/criticisms and understand your perspective. I do not deny that there are great and respected Sunni scholars who disagree with some of the points in Al-Marjaat and am am anxious to hear there specific problems with the book. Regarding the "statement of purification", we have went round and round about this (you and I) and have come to no agreement. I understand that. But there are many other scholarly arguments and I have yet to find a suitable response to the POINTS made in this book.

My understanding of these issues is limited, and I appreciate the service that the administrators provide. I will read and respond to the link you provided. You have (previously) offered to provide links to Sunni sources. Do you know if the Four Mathhabs are online? Do you have a link to them?

As for me I HAVE NO PERSONAL PROBLEMS WITH MAINSTREAM SUNNI MUSLIMS and I enjoy the opportunity to discuss these issues. What disturbs me (and prevents me from being more active in this lately) is the insults and personal attacks that come from others who regularly participate in this forum. I have never questioned the truthfullness or sanity of any members of this forum. I would request the same courtesy from others (this is not directed at you Rami, as you know.) I have never called anyone a Kafir or Mushrik, or said that Wahabi's or Salafis are Kafirs or Mushriks. This is a GRAVE insult to a Muslim, and I hope the moderators will take this into account.

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)

IP Logged

saalih

Groupie
Groupie

Joined: 24 March 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 61

Posted: 24 June 2005 at 12:48pm

If there were any personal insults by men then i am sorry. to be honest with you i don't now a thing about salafes or wahabis. Todays muslims scholars are not learned as the scholars before us, and do not understand the religion as well as the scholars before us.

what sunni scholar doesn't agree with bukhari and muslim. it's the sunnah that tell us the best examples and which deeds are the best. without these people are missing great portion of islam.

1.do shias insult the sahaba yes or no.

IP Logged

Ali Zaki

Senior Member

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217

Posted: 24 June 2005 at 1:44pm

Salam,

Thanks Rami! You're efforts are appreciated by some.

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)

IP Logged

rami
Male Islam
Senior Member

Senior Member

Joined: 01 March 2000
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2550

Posted: 25 June 2005 at 1:37am

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum Shakur,

Sorry i wasnt more clear in my post you did not insult any person but your article was directed to a religious community ie shia it labeled them as kufar.

the site where this article comes from is run by wahabi extremest in Indian who practice takfir on other muslims (different from average wahabi's today). nothing on that site is scholarly or is accepted by any of the madhhabs it is full of misquotes and misinterpratations of many scholars. I would advise staying away from it.

Br Ali Zaki my comments about the ahadith in Bukhari about ahl al bayt where not reffering to our last converstation i was speking generaly about all the ahadith in bukhari or muslim which shia take as evidence that sunni's are ignoring certain hadith implying we are not following the sunnah or we are wrong for what ever reason.

Edited by rami

Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

IP Logged

	Active Topics Memberlist Calendar Search Help
	Register Login Old Forum

Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue

Author	Message
rami Male Islam Senior Member Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2000 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2550	Posted: 24 June 2005 at 8:39am
	Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem assalamu alaikum Some of the Guidlines you should consider br, and posting the above is certainly in breach of them, please be more carfull next time. *1. We manage here an Islamic* discussion board, thus all members are requested to maitain the deorum as per the standards of an Islamic cultural society.** Any joke, or casual statement which the moderators find insensitive, may result in edition or deletion. 2. A generally pleasant demeanor and cordiality in language is requested during discussions. 10. We will not tolerate personal attacks on participants from ANY Community (personal attacks are defined as comments that reflect upon the person instead of their opinion). Furthermore, any insults intended to ANY religion or ANY prophet of God, or ANY holy scripture shall be removed. 13. We request you not to post URLs of sites the sole existence of which is to slander a religion or spread lies about it. 18. If any board member is found inadequate in observing any of the above rules, he/she may be prompted once, twice or thrice by the moderators before denying him/her all access to discussion boards in future. 19.Your participation in discussion forums is a privilege and not a right. "Free Speech" here means that you don't pay for speaking your mind as opposed to any other belief(s) you might have. We reserve the right to remove any comment or comments that are not in line with the above rules, without giving reasons, notifications or explanations to anyone. Discussing an aspect of shia beliefe is one thing, outright Takfir of Shia is not acceptable. Edited by rami
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
	IP Logged

Ayubi1187 Groupie Joined: 06 December 2001 Location: Somalia Online Status: Offline Posts: 69	Posted: 24 June 2005 at 8:53am
	*Originally posted by Ali Zaki* Alhamdullila! They have revealed their true face (the Salafi's and Wahabbi's) and IT HAS BECOME CLEAR WHO IS CREATING THE FITNA IN THE UMMA OF RASULALLAH (A.S.). For anyone who is interested in an actual Sunni-Shia dialogue from two respected scholars of their day, please see http://al-islam.org/murajaat/index.htm. This presents (and discusses) the ACTUAL differences between Sunni and Shia. So the classical scholar named by shakur are all wahabi and salafi? Dont refer people to deception. This duologue never happen between Selim al-Bashri and the lier. The most oddest things is how Selim all the time is singing the praises of the Shia scholar. And the speed this letter arrives between the two different countrys in 1910. Its imaginary dialog like the peshawar night pure deception.
	IP Logged

Ayubi1187 Groupie Joined: 06 December 2001 Location: Somalia Online Status: Offline Posts: 69	Posted: 24 June 2005 at 9:12am
	*Originally posted by Ali Zaki* Br. Shakur, We do not reject ALL of the hadith in Muslim or Bukhari, however, we do not accept them as Saheeh. In general, The Shia do not accept any collection of hadith as being Saheeh (except, possibly, Al-Kafi) and the only book that is relied upon 100% is the Holy Quran. This idea that an ENTIRE BOOK can not be criticized (other then Quran) is not supported by Quran, Sunnah or Hadith. The Shia science of hadith collects hadith, categorizes them and but them all (with their chains of naration) in a collection. This collection is continously re-evaluated by scholars and discussed. For those who believe that Muslim and Buhkari do not contain false hadith (and hadith the support Imam Ali (a.s.) as the first Caliph), please see http://al-islam.org/ask/8.html (which includes direct quotes from these two books that can be verified by anyone). Shia science of hadith? categorizes them? continuously re-evaluated ? Where do this shia live on the moon?.[moderator edited]Murajaat and Peshawar night is good example and lets as not forget the Nahjul balagha speeches attributed to Imam Ali(ra). as the forum guidlines state, we do not allow personel attacks.rami. Edited by rami

	IP Logged

rami Male Islam Senior Member Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2000 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2550	Posted: 24 June 2005 at 9:32am
	Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem some shia are outright kaafirs as are some so called sunnis like - ahmadiya and qadiyaani The Shia are made up of different groups, i have read that some would be considered kafir but i dont know to much about it. the Main Shia group are muslim according to the majority of Sunni scholars, there have been heretical people among them but you have to be carefull between this and outright takfir of All shia. Are you saying there is nothing that can nullify shahada? Do you seriously think i believe that? The minimum to be considered a muslim in islam is believing Allah is one and Muhamad is his prophet. The only sin Allah wont forgive is shirk. This fatwas cannot be applied on individuals but it can be applied on shiism and the one who follows its teachings 100%. There is many shia who dont by the idea of hidden imam or that sahaba become apostates or that todays quran is not the same as in prophets(saw) time. And in many shia community's the majority have always seen muta as something ugly. This is not a fatwa only a scholar who has Ijaza is Qualified to give legal rulings in Islam. This is a bunch of staments taken out of context of time period and place and put together with the opinions of the auther. please have some respect for islamic scholarship and authority. br Ali Zaki not every sunni scholar ageed that Bukhari or muslim were sahih i dont know any which said they contained false ahadith. The majority and the concensus among scholars is that they are Sahih, i sugest you look at sunni methodology of clasifying ahadith not the atempt by this site which is an insult realy to scholarship as it ignores all methodology imam Bukhari and muslim formulated to clasify hadith in there colection. How can you comment on the works and ignore the methadology used to complie it. It is only a critisism of people Shia dislike nothing else, where is the scholarship in that. I do not trust the site you contiunualy refrence, the argument they present and the sources have yet to be proven reliable. Many shia books are delibratly worded in such a manner br it is manipulative as it leaves no room in the persons mind to make up his own judgment it lacks impartiality while pretending to be fair by presenting sunni "evidence" against sunni's with shia interpretation of what the sunni's are saying rather than what is being said. The clasicc example is the hadith in Bukhari about ahl al bayt, The understanding of these ahadith by sunni's is not the same as shia so how can simply having a hadith which you interprate a certain way be proof that the scholar is somehow agreeing with you? we have many comentarie's, tafsir, on these works clearly explaing what is meant by them. you may like to have a look at the following. http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/ Edited by rami
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
	IP Logged

Ali Zaki Senior Member Joined: 10 May 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 217	Posted: 24 June 2005 at 10:10am
	Salam alakum Br. Rami, I appreciate your comments/criticisms and understand your perspective. I do not deny that there are great and respected Sunni scholars who disagree with some of the points in Al-Marjaat and am am anxious to hear there specific problems with the book. Regarding the "statement of purification", we have went round and round about this (you and I) and have come to no agreement. I understand that. But there are many other scholarly arguments and I have yet to find a suitable response to the POINTS made in this book. My understanding of these issues is limited, and I appreciate the service that the administrators provide. I will read and respond to the link you provided. You have (previously) offered to provide links to Sunni sources. Do you know if the Four Mathhabs are online? Do you have a link to them? As for me I HAVE NO PERSONAL PROBLEMS WITH MAINSTREAM SUNNI MUSLIMS and I enjoy the opportunity to discuss these issues. What disturbs me (and prevents me from being more active in this lately) is the insults and personal attacks that come from others who regularly participate in this forum. I have never questioned the truthfullness or sanity of any members of this forum. I would request the same courtesy from others (this is not directed at you Rami, as you know.) I have never called anyone a Kafir or Mushrik, or said that Wahabi's or Salafis are Kafirs or Mushriks. This is a GRAVE insult to a Muslim, and I hope the moderators will take this into account. Salam
	"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad." Imam Ali (a.s.)
	IP Logged

saalih Groupie Joined: 24 March 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 61	Posted: 24 June 2005 at 12:48pm
	If there were any personal insults by men then i am sorry. to be honest with you i don't now a thing about salafes or wahabis. Todays muslims scholars are not learned as the scholars before us, and do not understand the religion as well as the scholars before us. what sunni scholar doesn't agree with bukhari and muslim. it's the sunnah that tell us the best examples and which deeds are the best. without these people are missing great portion of islam. 1.do shias insult the sahaba yes or no.
	IP Logged

Ali Zaki Senior Member Joined: 10 May 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 217	Posted: 24 June 2005 at 1:44pm
	Salam, Thanks Rami! You're efforts are appreciated by some.
	"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad." Imam Ali (a.s.)
	IP Logged

rami Male Islam Senior Member Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2000 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2550	Posted: 25 June 2005 at 1:37am
	Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem assalamu alaikum Shakur, Sorry i wasnt more clear in my post you did not insult any person but your article was directed to a religious community ie shia it labeled them as kufar. the site where this article comes from is run by wahabi extremest in Indian who practice takfir on other muslims (different from average wahabi's today). nothing on that site is scholarly or is accepted by any of the madhhabs it is full of misquotes and misinterpratations of many scholars. I would advise staying away from it. Br Ali Zaki my comments about the ahadith in Bukhari about ahl al bayt where not reffering to our last converstation i was speking generaly about all the ahadith in bukhari or muslim which shia take as evidence that sunni's are ignoring certain hadith implying we are not following the sunnah or we are wrong for what ever reason. Edited by rami
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
	IP Logged

Topic: THE CREED OF THE SHI’AISM
	<< Prev Page of 3 Next >>