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semar
 
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Quote semar Replybullet Topic: Mosques increasingly not welcome in Europ
    Posted: 17 July 2008 at 5:20pm
 
Mosques increasingly not welcome in Europe

By Jeffrey Stinson, USA TODAY
 
mosque%20in%20romeThe Rome mosque, which is the largest in Europe, is located in downtown Mount Antenne park.
 
LONDON — Europeans are increasingly lashing out at the construction of mosques in their cities as terrorism fears and continued immigration feed anti-Muslim sentiment across the continent.
The latest dispute is in Switzerland, which is planning a nationwide referendum to ban minarets on mosques. This month, Italy's interior minister vowed to close a controversial mosque in Milan.

Some analysts call the mosque conflicts the manifestation of a growing fear that Muslims aren't assimilating, don't accept Western values and pose a threat to security. "It's a visible symbol of anti-Muslim feelings in Europe," says Daniθle Joly, director of the Center for Research in Ethnic Relations at the University of Warwick in England. "It's part of an Islamophobia. Europeans feel threatened."

The disputes reflect unease with the estimated 18 million Muslims who constitute the continent's second-biggest religion, living amid Western Europe's predominantly Christian population of 400 million, Joly says.

Anti-Muslim sentiment

The clashes also represent a turnaround from the 1980s and '90s, when construction of large mosques was accepted and even celebrated in many cities. "I think the tide has turned," Joly says.

Indicative of the change:

• Supporters of the Swiss referendum collected enough signatures two weeks ago to call for a constitutional ban on minarets, the towers used to call worshipers to prayer. No date has been set for the vote.

• Italy's Interior Minister Roberto Maroni announced this month that he wants to close a Milan mosque because crowds attending Friday prayers spill onto the street and irritate neighbors. In April, the city of Bologna scrapped plans for a new mosque, saying Muslim leaders failed to meet certain requirements, including making public its source of funding.

• In Austria, the southern province of Carinthia passed a law in February that effectively bans the construction of mosques by requiring them to fit within the overall look and harmony of villages and towns.

• Far-right leaders from 15 European cities met in Antwerp, Belgium, in January and called for a ban on new mosques and a halt to "the Islamization" of European cities. The group said mosques act as catalysts for taking over neighborhoods and imposing Islamic ways of life on Europeans.

"We already have more than 6,000 mosques in Europe, which are not only a place to worship but also a symbol of radicalization, some financed by extreme groups in Saudi Arabia or Iran," Filip Dewinter, leader of a Flemish separatist party in Belgium, told Radio Netherlands Worldwide at the conference.

Dewinter criticized a mosque being built in Rotterdam, Netherlands: "Its minarets are six floors high. These kinds of symbols have to stop."

Although the group in Antwerp represented minority political parties from Belgium, Austria and Germany, its cause resonates elsewhere.

Construction of a mosque in Cologne, Germany, drew protests from residents last year and sparked a political debate in Berlin over concerns that it could overshadow the city's great Gothic cathedral.

In London, plans for a "mega-mosque" for 12,000 worshipers next to the site of the 2012 Olympics drew 250,000-plus opposing signatures.

Current controversies over mosques represent an anti-Muslim attitude that initially sprang up after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States and the transit bombings in Madrid in 2004 and London in 2005, Joly says. Aggravating those views are pressures from the influx of immigrants and growing population of Muslims throughout Europe.

Other events have fueled worries that many Muslims don't accept Western values: widespread protests by Muslims after a Danish newspaper published cartoons of the prophet Mohammed in 2006, and the 2004 murder of a Dutch filmmaker, Theo van Gogh, by a Muslim extremist in retaliation for a film about abuse of Muslim women.

Restrictions could backfire

Sakib Halilovic, an imam in Zurich, says Switzerland's referendum to ban minarets "plays into the hands" of Muslim extremists by denying them a place to worship or limit what the mosque can look like.

"It will boost radical positions within the Muslim society in Switzerland," Halilovic told the Swiss Broadcasting Corp. last week.

Some moderate Muslims say those against building more mosques sometimes have legitimate concerns.

"Truthfully speaking, we don't need so many mosques," says Irfan al-Alawi, international director of the Center for Islamic Pluralism in London. "We have 1,600 mosques (in Britain) and a (Muslim) population of 1.6 million. It's become a business rather than a worship place."

Al-Alawi, who opposes the London mega-mosque, says disagreements within a mosque can cause some members to branch off and want their own new building that is unnecessary.

The mosques often don't fit in with neighborhoods or outnumber churches or other religious houses of worship, he says.

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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2008 at 10:05pm
 
 To prove their liberal relgion, christians should support the building of mosques. The most important matter is the peaceful preaching. If it spills over into abuse of the beloved pesonalities then it becomes a violation. The christians normally do such things, as they had made cartoons and films recently.
 
 Muslims have to pray and they need the mosques. But it is their duty never to make any slogan which could disturb peace in the locality. Pray as much as they like but not to make the mosque a place for political upheaval at any cost, not even when they out number the christians. They should not try to turn the tables on the other people.
 
 The problem is that the Muslims do not have any leader, a spiritual leader, an Imam, who could guide them. They are being led by about 1000 different heads. Also in England there was news about the Muslim members having a clash in the mosque, thus causing a split and a fight and the closing of that mosque. That is a shame.
 
 The Muslims can only request with love for permission to build mosque. They cannot exert any pressure. They should guarantee peace in the area. They should deliver sermons clearly disallowing any idea of Jihad. But it is seen that nearly all factions of Islam (except just a few) believe in waging a religious war (Jihad) on the non-Muslims.
 
 If the Muslims guarantee that they will teach and preach every Muslim against the suicide bombings and Jihad then it will be easy for the christians and local goverment to permit the construction of the mosque. Is there any Maulvi who will preach against weapon type Jihad ? I hope not.
 
 Jihad with weapons has conditions which are not fulfilled in these days. The whole world is a global village. Every faith people are living in every country. Who will fight who? Jihad needs a leader and the capacity. Jihad is only when the religion is in danger. It is not when name sake Muslims are in danger. But the Jihad against the evil desires of the lower self is applicable at all times and that is the type of Jihad that is mostly needed for the Muslims all over the world.


Edited by minuteman - 17 July 2008 at 10:12pm
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2008 at 8:26am
Well yes they are threatened.. basically it is a population issue. Mainstream Europeans are not producing that many offspring. So the numbers are shifting. Masjids are just the representation.
 
And many people in Europe do not go to church..so.. the building are often more historic than used. Maybe they should worry about the lack of faith amongst so-called Christians than anything else.
 
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2008 at 2:36pm

Here where I live every Sunday from 7:00 am until around 2:00 pm the main streets are closed off and police officers are dispatched to manually direct traffic due to the constipation of church attendance.  I have gotten trapped before and it took forever to make it about two blocks. What a nightmare, yet the non-Christians and those who do not attend church accept it.

"Current controversies over mosques represent an anti-Muslim attitude that initially sprang up after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States and the transit bombings in Madrid in 2004 and London in 2005, Joly says. Aggravating those views are pressures from the influx of immigrants and growing population of Muslims throughout Europe.

Other events have fueled worries that many Muslims don't accept Western values: widespread protests by Muslims after a Danish newspaper published cartoons of the prophet Mohammed in 2006, and the 2004 murder of a Dutch filmmaker, Theo van Gogh, by a Muslim extremist in retaliation for a film about abuse of Muslim women."
 
That really has nothing to do with the building of mosques. Denying construction of a mosque will not save Western values or keep the Muslim population from growing.
 
I am curious, what exactly are these touted Western values that Muslims won't accept? I am Western born and bred and I reject many so-called Western values: immorality, substance abuse, etc...   I don't think they could be speaking of freedom as that would clearly be an oxymoron given that the freedom to build mosques is being denied.  Perhaps it is only freedom of certain people, certain religions, certain ethnicities that is a Western value? If you are a eurocaucasian Christian then you may enjoy the Western value of freedom. Otherwise, not so much.
 
And I am really curious as to which "Islamic ways of life" Muslims have been imposing on Europeans. The last I heard it was Muslims who couldn't wear head scarfs, Muslims who couldn't build mosques, Muslims who are often denied employment, etc....
 
OMG: Muslims are the new European pre-Hitler Jews! 
 
 
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2008 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by minuteman

 
 To prove their liberal relgion, christians should support the building of mosques. The most important matter is the peaceful preaching. If it spills over into abuse of the beloved pesonalities then it becomes a violation. The christians normally do such things, as they had made cartoons and films recently.
Ok
 
 Muslims have to pray and they need the mosques. But it is their duty never to make any slogan which could disturb peace in the locality. Pray as much as they like but not to make the mosque a place for political upheaval at any cost, not even when they out number the christians. They should not try to turn the tables on the other people.
Why would they do that and how a minority can create political upheaval unless they were there due to mess created by the European governments?
Almost every past colonial country has been installed with a western funded dictator with no justice around for the people and you talk about turning tables!
There is so much prayer one can do till time comes to face the Reality in real terms!
 
 The problem is that the Muslims do not have any leader, a spiritual leader, an Imam, who could guide them. They are being led by about 1000 different heads. Also in England there was news about the Muslim members having a clash in the mosque, thus causing a split and a fight and the closing of that mosque. That is a shame.
It is but normal for the people in quasi diaspora in post colonial times of neo colonialism!
The colonial masters doesn't want the Muslims to have a real leader, they will send a Predator drone after him!
Let me tell you by stopping the mosques  will have a bigger problem on European's hands while the Brits ruled India they never stepped on this issue cuz it was a safety valve for them!
And Iqbal said a verse about that in jest
If the Brits have allowed the offering of prayer - Mullah thinks Islam is free in India?

Just that kept the Muslims from  rebelling again and again for freedom!Not that Indian Muslims had the same genes of Arabs for a sustained armed fight for independence!
 
 The Muslims can only request with love for permission to build mosque. They cannot exert any pressure. They should guarantee peace in the area. They should deliver sermons clearly disallowing any idea of Jihad. But it is seen that nearly all factions of Islam (except just a few) believe in waging a religious war (Jihad) on the non-Muslims.
Oh pleeease cut this Ahmediac lecture out!
It is well established fact where ever a full service Mosque was established the crime level dropped generally and particularly it is a well recognized by our city's administration! In the beginning the bible thumping neighbors did all they could to harass by calling the cops for trivial parking issues on 30 minutes of Friday afternoons on a sparsely traveled site! The old mosque site happened to be an old church!
 
 If the Muslims guarantee that they will teach and preach every Muslim against the suicide bombings and Jihad then it will be easy for the christians and local goverment to permit the construction of the mosque. Is there any Maulvi who will preach against weapon type Jihad ? I hope not.

 
 Jihad with weapons has conditions which are not fulfilled in these days. The whole world is a global village. Every faith people are living in every country. Who will fight who? Jihad needs a leader and the capacity. Jihad is only when the religion is in danger. It is not when name sake Muslims are in danger. But the Jihad against the evil desires of the lower self is applicable at all times and that is the type of Jihad that is mostly needed for the Muslims all over the world.

Again Ahmediac rant!
Only the wearer knows where the shoe pinches!


Edited by Sign*Reader - 18 July 2008 at 4:34pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 21 July 2008 at 8:52am

 

 

And Iqbal said a verse about that in jest
If the Brits have allowed the offering of prayer - Mullah thinks Islam is free in India?

S*R, You seem to be some militant Muslim, like the followers of Maudoodi sahib or like the Ikhwan (Brotherhood) of Egypt. You do not advocate proposals for peaceful living. You may be aware of the Sikh rule in Punjab. There was no permission to say Azaan. Wealth and property of Muslims was not safe. The Sikhs used to keep their horses in the mosques. Most Mosques were locked up. And they used to grind Bhang (some mild vegetable type narcotic) in the mosques.

Dr. Iqbal has been a restectable person. He should not be ignorant to the very bad condition during the Sikh rule. Being a Kashmiri Shaikh, he should have known everything about the restrictions on prayers. Why he said what you have quoted or some one may have planted it on him, we do not know.

 He said if Mulla is allowed to prostrate (Sajdah) in India, the poor man (Mulla) thinks that Islam is free.

What the British did? They opened the Mosques. They allowed every one to pray a smuch as they liked without disturbing the peace. The Hindus, the Sikhs, The Christians and the Muslims were free to perform their religious rites. You think it was a minor thing? Perhaps you need some lessons in relegion and good behaviour.

The British government did not impose any restriction on the religious duties of the Muslims. The Muslims were free to say Azaan, to pray, to Pay Zakaat, To fast during the month of Ramadhan and to go to Hajj. Tell me what was missing of Islam.

I can see your mind. The political Mullas who had no eductaion and no real understanding of the religion, who had for many hundred years been sleeping in India under the kings rules and who had not performed their duties properly suddenly had the idea of Islam. Before they were sleeping. They were respomsible for the very long time under the Muslim Kings rule. But under the British rule, they had some freedom so they wanted to incite people to violence.

Doctor Iqbal sahib was not very much in favor of the Mullas. He was some time under attack by the Mullas. We must remember that teh Muslims were not capable at all in any sense (religious or social). If they had been any good (Saliheen) they would not have lost their land to the Sikhs and later to the British people. You know about "The survival of the fittest". Being unfit people, the Muslims lost the land in India. That shows moral and spiritual weakness. Please understand. That is still continuing.

The Muslim leaders, who do not know the reality of the religion, the basics of Momin and muslim and Munafiq and Kafir, they are mostly sunk deep in their politics and in dividing the poor Muslims in their own parties (Sects), are still taching and preaching for Jihad, the religious war. But do they know about the conditions for Jihad? I had mentioned that in my post but you did not touch on that point. Is it necessary to fight the christians, or Americans or British now? Where would you like to start the battle please?

There is no need to incite the poor muslims who are already suffering very much for the last 200 years due to ignorance and factional infighting. When there is no unity or faith or discipline, why go for war? If this is not the right course for the Muslims to be peaceful then you please lead the way and speak out about your plans. Welcome.

If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2008 at 12:57pm

shasta's- here is one way

 

"Many Muslim cab drivers in Minneapolis are refusing to allow passengers carrying alcohol in their cabs, saying it is against the Islamic Shariah [law] to do so. More than half the taxi drivers on the airport are Muslims, and as soon as they got a majority, they have resorted to imposing their beliefs on others."

I also remember reading something about guide dogs and the blind having trouble getting rides in cabs with Nuslim drivers.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2008 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by believer

shasta's- here is one way

 

"Many Muslim cab drivers in Minneapolis are refusing to allow passengers carrying alcohol in their cabs, saying it is against the Islamic Shariah [law] to do so. More than half the taxi drivers on the airport are Muslims, and as soon as they got a majority, they have resorted to imposing their beliefs on others."

I also remember reading something about guide dogs and the blind having trouble getting rides in cabs with Nuslim drivers.
 
If you own a grocery store or a coffee shop and someone comes in with alocohol you have the right to ask them to leave.  Most retail stores, hospitals, clinics will not even allow you to carry in water much less alcohol.
 
Alcohol is often banned at public places and businesses, are you saying these cab drivers do not have that same right?  If these men were not Muslims, if it were a group of recovering alcoholics or pregnant women, it would not even be an issue.
 
What about all of those: No shirt No shoes No service signs at businesses?  Does anyone really have the right to deny business to someone who isn't wearing shoes? Or restaurants that won't serve you without a coat or tie?
 
So, what you are saying is if a Christian owns a business and someone wants to come inside that business and commit an act that is against the owner's beliefs or moral code then the owner would have no right to object or refuse service? Say if you have a Christian bookstore and someone comes in with alcohol, or two teenagers come in and start making out. Should that owner be allowed to refuse them service and ask them to leave? 
 
 
 


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 22 July 2008 at 9:45pm
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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