IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Do you see an hierarchy in the Trinity?

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   As Salaamu Alaikum,

It's been a long time since I've visited these forums. 

Recently I've come across an interesting topic which I wanted to discuss:
"Hierarchy within the Trinity"

Christians have often claimed that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are co-eternal and co-equal. Yet, we do not find any EXPLICIT reference to this in the Bible.

On the contrary the Bible demonstrates that the 3 persons of the Trinity are different in authority, knowledge and attributes.

To avoid over-complicating the subject; and to remain focused on the topic, I shall concentrate only on the issue of authority within the Trinity.

From an Islamic (and Jewish) perspective, there is no ambiguity as to who's in charge of the universe. i.e. ONE GOD who is the Ultimate Authority, who has no companions or family.

Most religions will agree that since God is the Ultimate Authority, He cannot be subordinate to anyone. 

However, since the Christians believe in the doctrine of Trinity, three persons in one, how do they reconcile the fact that the Son is subservient to God (the Father)? Since God cannot be subservient, and Jesus was, Jesus cannot be God according to this principle.

Please ensure that the Bible, and its careful interpretation, are the primary basis upon which you answer this question. Not a copy n paste from another website w/o first understanding the issue yourself.

Passages on Authority

Before you state that Jesus humbled himself during his ministry on Earth, please consider the fact that Jesus (The Son) is always subservient to the Father in HEAVEN 
        I have not come on my own (initiative); but he sent me (Jn 8:42) 
and on EARTH 
        Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the  head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor 11:3), 

        'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' (Jn 20: 17).

The Father is NEVER subordinate to the Son either in OT or NT.

was'salaam,
Salmaan

Author	Message
Salmaan Senior Member Joined: 30 April 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 926	Topic: Do you see an hierarchy in the Trinity? Posted: 17 July 2008 at 8:58am
	As Salaamu Alaikum, It's been a long time since I've visited these forums. Recently I've come across an interesting topic which I wanted to discuss: "Hierarchy within the Trinity" Christians have often claimed that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are co-eternal and co-equal. Yet, we do not find any EXPLICIT reference to this in the Bible. On the contrary the Bible demonstrates that the 3 persons of the Trinity are different in authority, knowledge and attributes. To avoid over-complicating the subject; and to remain focused on the topic, I shall concentrate only on the issue of authority within the Trinity. From an Islamic (and Jewish) perspective, there is no ambiguity as to who's in charge of the universe. i.e. ONE GOD who is the Ultimate Authority, who has no companions or family. Most religions will agree that since God is the Ultimate Authority, He cannot be subordinate to anyone. However, since the Christians believe in the doctrine of Trinity, three persons in one, how do they reconcile the fact that the Son is subservient to God (the Father)? Since God cannot be subservient, and Jesus was, Jesus cannot be God according to this principle. Please ensure that the Bible, and its careful interpretation, are the primary basis upon which you answer this question. Not a copy n paste from another website w/o first understanding the issue yourself. Passages on Authority Before you state that Jesus humbled himself during his ministry on Earth, please consider the fact that Jesus (The Son) is always subservient to the Father in HEAVEN I have not come on my own (initiative); but he sent me (Jn 8:42) and on EARTH Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor 11:3), 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' (Jn 20: 17). The Father is NEVER subordinate to the Son either in OT or NT. was'salaam, Salmaan
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icforumadmin Admin Group Joined: 15 February 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 742	Posted: 17 July 2008 at 1:18pm
	Assalamu alaikum Salmaan, Welcome back. Happy to see you again. admin
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robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 17 July 2008 at 2:05pm
	*Originally posted by Salmaan* As Salaamu Alaikum, It's been a long time since I've visited these forums. Recently I've come across an interesting topic which I wanted to discuss: "Hierarchy within the Trinity" Christians have often claimed that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are co-eternal and co-equal. Yet, we do not find any EXPLICIT reference to this in the Bible. On the contrary the Bible demonstrates that the 3 persons of the Trinity are different in authority, knowledge and attributes. To avoid over-complicating the subject; and to remain focused on the topic, I shall concentrate only on the issue of authority within the Trinity. From an Islamic (and Jewish) perspective, there is no ambiguity as to who's in charge of the universe. i.e. ONE GOD who is the Ultimate Authority, who has no companions or family. Most religions will agree that since God is the Ultimate Authority, He cannot be subordinate to anyone. However, since the Christians believe in the doctrine of Trinity, three persons in one, how do they reconcile the fact that the Son is subservient to God (the Father)? Since God cannot be subservient, and Jesus was, Jesus cannot be God according to this principle. Please ensure that the Bible, and its careful interpretation, are the primary basis upon which you answer this question. Not a copy n paste from another website w/o first understanding the issue yourself. Passages on Authority Before you state that Jesus humbled himself during his ministry on Earth, please consider the fact that Jesus (The Son) is always subservient to the Father in HEAVEN I have not come on my own (initiative); but he sent me (Jn 8:42) and on EARTH Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor 11:3), 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' (Jn 20: 17). The Father is NEVER subordinate to the Son either in OT or NT. was'salaam, Salmaan But the Son is subordinate to The Father:- 1 Corinthians 15:28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
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Salmaan Senior Member Joined: 30 April 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 926	Posted: 17 July 2008 at 11:16pm
	*Originally posted by robin* But the Son is subordinate to The Father:- 1 Corinthians 15:28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone. So you agree that Jesus CANNOT be God since God doesn't submit to anyone (being the Ultimate Authority)?
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Salmaan Senior Member Joined: 30 April 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 926	Posted: 17 July 2008 at 11:19pm
	*Originally posted by icforumadmin* Assalamu alaikum Salmaan, Welcome back. Happy to see you again. admin Thank you!
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robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 22 July 2008 at 9:45am
	*Originally posted by Salmaan* *Originally posted by robin* But the Son is subordinate to The Father:- 1 Corinthians 15:28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone. So you agree that Jesus CANNOT be God since God doesn't submit to anyone (being the Ultimate Authority)? Yes I do, as I do not believe that God and Jesus are the same person!
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Salmaan Senior Member Joined: 30 April 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 926	Posted: 24 July 2008 at 1:42am
	Thanks Robin. Any Christians who do believe in the doctrine of Trinity, care to respond?
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