Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Do you see an hierarchy in the Trinity? Post Reply Post New Topic
Author Message
Salmaan
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 April 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 926
Quote Salmaan Replybullet Topic: Do you see an hierarchy in the Trinity?
    Posted: 17 July 2008 at 8:58am
As Salaamu Alaikum,

It's been a long time since I've visited these forums. Smile

Recently I've come across an interesting topic which I wanted to discuss:
"Hierarchy within the Trinity"

Christians have often claimed that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are co-eternal and co-equal. Yet, we do not find any EXPLICIT reference to this in the Bible.

On the contrary the Bible demonstrates that the 3 persons of the Trinity are different in authority, knowledge and attributes.

To avoid over-complicating the subject; and to remain focused on the topic, I shall concentrate only on the issue of authority within the Trinity.

From an Islamic (and Jewish) perspective, there is no ambiguity as to who's in charge of the universe. i.e. ONE GOD who is the Ultimate Authority, who has no companions or family.

Most religions will agree that since God is the Ultimate Authority, He cannot be subordinate to anyone.

However, since the Christians believe in the doctrine of Trinity, three persons in one, how do they reconcile the fact that the Son is subservient to God (the Father)? Since God cannot be subservient, and Jesus was, Jesus cannot be God according to this principle.

Please ensure that the Bible, and its careful interpretation, are the primary basis upon which you answer this question. Not a copy n paste from another website w/o first understanding the issue yourself.

Passages on Authority

Before you state that Jesus humbled himself during his ministry on Earth, please consider the fact that Jesus (The Son) is always subservient to the Father in HEAVEN
        I have not come on my own (initiative); but he sent me (Jn 8:42)
and on EARTH
        Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the  head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor 11:3),

        'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' (Jn 20: 17).

The Father is NEVER subordinate to the Son either in OT or NT.

was'salaam,
Salmaan
IP IP Logged
icforumadmin
 
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: 15 February 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 764
Quote icforumadmin Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2008 at 1:18pm

Assalamu alaikum Salmaan,

Welcome back. Happy to see you again.
 
admin
IP IP Logged
robin
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 17 May 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 595
Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2008 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by Salmaan

As Salaamu Alaikum,

It's been a long time since I've visited these forums. Smile

Recently I've come across an interesting topic which I wanted to discuss:
"Hierarchy within the Trinity"

Christians have often claimed that The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are co-eternal and co-equal. Yet, we do not find any EXPLICIT reference to this in the Bible.

On the contrary the Bible demonstrates that the 3 persons of the Trinity are different in authority, knowledge and attributes.

To avoid over-complicating the subject; and to remain focused on the topic, I shall concentrate only on the issue of authority within the Trinity.

From an Islamic (and Jewish) perspective, there is no ambiguity as to who's in charge of the universe. i.e. ONE GOD who is the Ultimate Authority, who has no companions or family.

Most religions will agree that since God is the Ultimate Authority, He cannot be subordinate to anyone.

However, since the Christians believe in the doctrine of Trinity, three persons in one, how do they reconcile the fact that the Son is subservient to God (the Father)? Since God cannot be subservient, and Jesus was, Jesus cannot be God according to this principle.

Please ensure that the Bible, and its careful interpretation, are the primary basis upon which you answer this question. Not a copy n paste from another website w/o first understanding the issue yourself.

Passages on Authority

Before you state that Jesus humbled himself during his ministry on Earth, please consider the fact that Jesus (The Son) is always subservient to the Father in HEAVEN
        I have not come on my own (initiative); but he sent me (Jn 8:42)
and on EARTH
        Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the  head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor 11:3),

        'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' (Jn 20: 17).

The Father is NEVER subordinate to the Son either in OT or NT.

was'salaam,
Salmaan
 
But the Son is subordinate to The Father:-
 
1 Corinthians 15:28
But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
IP IP Logged
Salmaan
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 April 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 926
Quote Salmaan Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2008 at 11:16pm
Originally posted by robin

 
But the Son is subordinate to The Father:-
 
1 Corinthians 15:28
But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.


So you agree that Jesus CANNOT be God since God doesn't submit to anyone (being the Ultimate Authority)?
IP IP Logged
Salmaan
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 April 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 926
Quote Salmaan Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2008 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by icforumadmin

Assalamu alaikum Salmaan,

Welcome back. Happy to see you again.
 
admin


Thank you!
IP IP Logged
robin
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 17 May 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 595
Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2008 at 9:45am
Originally posted by Salmaan

Originally posted by robin

 
But the Son is subordinate to The Father:-
 
1 Corinthians 15:28
But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.


So you agree that Jesus CANNOT be God since God doesn't submit to anyone (being the Ultimate Authority)?
 
Yes I do, as I do not believe that God and Jesus are the same person!
IP IP Logged
Salmaan
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 April 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 926
Quote Salmaan Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2008 at 1:42am
Thanks Robin.

Any Christians who do believe in the doctrine of Trinity, care to respond?
IP IP Logged
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com