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Hayfa
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Posted: 16 July 2008 at 3:14am

Culturally, when I think of French women I think of romance, physical beauty and strong sexuality.

Interesting.. that woman may be exactly that under her clothes!

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 16 July 2008 at 4:38pm

Originally posted by Chrysalis

For 'her sake' ? How do you know how 'happy' or 'unhappy' she will be living in France?

Well, only because I have lived on this planet and among her species for quite a few years now. We're all expressing our opinions, including you and including the officials who rejected her application. About the only person whose opinion is not being heard is the woman herself, since she is obviously doing and saying what she is told by her male relatives. I wonder if even her choice of husband was her own.

That is not at all a valid reason for rejecting anyone a citizenship! Lots of French already living in France probably share the same views.

Not a valid reason? Then what would be a valid reason? Most citizenship tests include questions about the form of government and electoral system. I doubt that "lots" of people in France share her views. Undoubtedly a few do, but let me remind you that the rules for becoming a citizen are much more stringent than the rules for remaining one.

Originally posted by Hayfa

Interesting.. that woman may be exactly that under her clothes!

Maybe, but that's not how others will see her.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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Shasta'sAunt
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Posted: 16 July 2008 at 5:25pm

I wonder if the French had the same sensibilities when they colonized Morocco and lived there? Do you think they thought that they were too French to be living among the Moroccans? I wonder if the French women were forced to wear jalabiahs or gonduras to fit in.

I guess we could ask that about almost any group that has immigrated or settled in another country. I don't think the Europeans who settled in North America tried very hard to "fit" in with the indigenous population. Too bad there weren't any immigration tests or dress codes back then. Things would certainly be different now.

Ironic isn't it that the French ran roughshod over the Moroccans and took over their country without any remorse, yet now a Moroccan can't live in France. You would think it would only be fair.

BTW: nudity is everywhere in France. Billboards, beaches, television. Once again I see the irony, breats are fine, burqas not so much...

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt

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Shasta'sAunt
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Posted: 16 July 2008 at 5:36pm

Originally posted by believer

Let's flip the coin- If a woman that believes heart and soul in the woman's liberation movement would she be allowed to wear modest clothing and no scarf in Afgahnistan, Saudi Arabia, any Muslim country.

I have issue my self with anything that covers the face-lol!! except of course when weather demands a scarf.

Our faces are our identity, how we recognize each other, even infants recognize faces. People that cover their faces have something to hide, bank robbers, etc.

With so many people having plastic surgery, dyeing their hair and wearing colored contacts our faces are no longer truly our identities.

I believe heart and soul in women's liberation, what has that to do with wearing hijab? My ability to perform, think, and be treated equally has nothing to do with covering my hair. If I choose to wear hijab that is my decision to make and no person or government should try to tell me I cannot do so. How would forced removal of hijab be liberating to any woman who chooses to wear it? Besides, if a country believes in equality for women and women's rights, doesn't that extend to all women? Shouldn't every woman living there have the RIGHT to choose what and how she believes?

Why do you always say Muslim countries? There are no Muslim countries, there are just countries where there are Muslim majority. And yes, except for Saudi Arabia, women without hair covering can be seen in any Muslim majority country. The government does not force women to wear hijab and in some cases such as Turkey, they try to force women not to.

I have an American Muslim friend who just returned from teaching in Egypt. She applied for a job teaching in Morocco but she was told she would only be hired if she removed her hijab.

So your vision of women being forced to cover by crazed extremist governments is incorrect, however, if you would like to put forth the notion that crazed extremist governments are trying to force women to uncover I would agree....

Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 16 July 2008 at 5:41pm

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt

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imp87

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Posted: 16 July 2008 at 5:54pm

Originally posted by Ron Webb

If she shares the same values as her husband, then the question becomes why would her husband want to live in France? Or if she doesn't share his values, then why does she want to live with him? Either way, I think he/they belong in Morocco, or wherever burqas are the norm.

Im not no fan of Moroccans, but had France not abused so many of its colonies in Africa and forced people to migrate to France for a “better” life and job, then maybe we could have considered your point valid.

Do not think everyone loves where they live because it lay in Europe, most have to, given the right chance and promise of a lifestyle they would run out of France.

Such statements always come from people with the colonizer heritage.

The French did not say “we belong in France” when they killed a million Algerians.

Edited by imp87 - 16 July 2008 at 5:58pm

We are as pieces of chess engaged in victory and defeat, our victory and defeat is from thee.

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abuayisha

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Posted: 16 July 2008 at 5:58pm

Top Editorial:

13.7.08

France Rejects Muslim Woman

Freedom of religion, a constitutional right in France, is not a right extended to Muslim women who wear a burqa. Yesterday France rejected a Muslim women's bid to become a citizen because she wears a burqa.

French authorities claim that the burqa is incompatible with the notion of Frenchness and contradicts the national value that seeks equality of the sexes.

Faiza M (32), as she is known publicly, was born in Morocco until she married a French national and moved to France in 2000. She has three children who were all born in France.

Faiza M. speaks French but because she told authorities that she lives in "total submission" to her husband it was deemed that this demonstrated "insufficient assimilation" into French life.

Faiza M. appealed the ruling saying that she lived in harmony with French values but the Council of State upheld the ruling.

The Council of State heard legal evidence that decribed Faiza M's life as under the control of her husband and other male relatives.

The thinking in this ruling strongly suggests that France has just ruled that patriarchy and French citizenship is incompatible.

Should we now expect that Christian or Jewish women, for example, who are married to domineering French men are barred from citizenship, naturalized, or other?

And what will the test be to determine insufficient integration?

This case illustrates rising intolerance toward Muslims in France and elsewhere in Europe (see proposed minaret ban in Switzerland).

It is also hardly ironic that the government seeks to punish a Muslim woman for not being French enough to live with her French husband and children.

France is a decidedly patriachal society that can hardly claim that women enjoy equal status with men as a general rule. Faiza M. was rejected because she is a Muslim woman who wears a burqa in a nation who mostly want Muslims to leave.

This case is about being anti-Islam and anti-Muslim. And this virulent bigotry is being carried out on the body of a Muslim woman.

So much for freedom, freedom of religion, fraternity, justice, and equality under the law.

Ridwan Laher

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 16 July 2008 at 7:04pm

Two classic examples of the tu quoque fallacy:

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Ironic isn't it that the French ran roughshod over the Moroccans and took over their country without any remorse, yet now a Moroccan can't live in France. You would think it would only be fair.

Originally posted by imp87

The French did not say "we belong in France" when they killed a million Algerians.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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Chrysalis

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Posted: 17 July 2008 at 12:55pm

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Hayfa

Interesting.. that woman may be exactly that under her clothes!

Maybe, but that's not how others will see her.

If I remember correctly, I think you believe in not caring how other's percieve us, and sticking to 'who you really are' rather than conforming to other ppl's standards of what is 'cool' 'acceptable' or in this case what 'french' is.

"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

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