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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Topic: France: Muslim too submissive for citizenship
    Posted: 12 July 2008 at 5:33pm
France: Muslim too submissive for citizenship
 
Top court denies rights to burqa-wearing Morroccan woman
Reuters
updated 6:08 a.m. PT, Fri., July. 11, 2008

PARIS - France has denied citizenship to a veiled Moroccan woman on the grounds that her "radical" practice of Islam is incompatible with basic French values such as equality of the sexes.

The case will reignite debate about how to reconcile freedom of religion, which is guaranteed by the French constitution, and other fundamental rights, which many in France feel are being challenged by the way of life of some Muslims.

Le Monde newspaper said it was the first time a Muslim applicant had been rejected for reasons to do with personal religious practice.

"She has adopted a radical practice of her religion, incompatible with essential values of the French community, particularly the principle of equality of the sexes," said a ruling by the Council of State handed down last month and sent to Reuters on Friday to confirm a report in Le Monde.

The Council of State is a judicial body which has final say on disputes between individuals and the public administration.

She speaks good French
Married to a French national, the woman arrived in France in 2000, speaks good French and has three children born in France.

She wears a black burqa that covers all her body except her eyes, which are visible through a narrow slit, and lives in "total submission" to her husband and male relatives, according to reports by social services. Le Monde said the woman is 32.

The woman's application for French nationality was rejected in 2005 on grounds of "insufficient assimilation". She appealed to the Council of State, which last month approved the rejection.

In the past, nationality was denied to Muslims who were known to have links with extremist circles or who had publicly advocated radicalism, which is not the case here.

The ruling comes weeks after a heated debate over whether traditional Muslim views were creeping into French law, prompted by a court annulment of the marriage of two Muslims because the husband said the wife was not a virgin as she had claimed to be.

Going to an extreme?
In the case of the Moroccan woman, Le Monde suggested the Council of State had gone to the opposite extreme by rejecting the woman's beliefs and way of life rather than accommodating them.

"Is a burqa incompatible with French nationality?" the newspaper asked.

The legal expert who provided a formal report on the case to the Council of State wrote that the woman's interviews with social services revealed that "she lives almost as a recluse, isolated from French society," Le Monde reported.

"She has no idea about the secular state or the right to vote. She lives in total submission to her male relatives. She seems to find this normal and the idea of challenging it has never crossed her mind," Emmanuelle Prada-Bordenave wrote.

Le Monde quoted Daniele Lochak, a law professor not involved in the case, as saying it was bizarre to consider that excessive submission to men was a reason not to grant citizenship.

"If you follow that to its logical conclusion, it means that women whose partners beat them are also not worthy of being French," Lochak said.

Copyright 2008 Reuters. URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25637418/

© 2008 MSNBC.com


Edited by abuayisha - 12 July 2008 at 5:35pm
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Salams_wife
 
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Quote Salams_wife Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2008 at 11:46pm
That is totally ridiculous.  The french never cease to amaze me.  This poor woman is doing what she believes is best.  She is trying to just be a good religious woman and the French government punish her for it.  Should they take away the citizenship of nuns too since they are too conservative and reclusive?
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2008 at 5:55am
Let's flip the coin- If a woman that believes heart and soul in the woman's liberation movement would she be allowed to wear modest clothing and no scarf in Afgahnistan, Saudi Arabia, any Muslim country.
 
I have issue my self with anything that covers the face-lol!! except of course when weather demands a scarf.
 
Our faces are our identity, how we recognize each other, even infants recognize faces.  People that cover their faces have something to hide, bank robbers, etc.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2008 at 6:16am
HOW MUCH? TOO MUCH ! 
 
 That was bad of the french government. They have a bad way of life. Now they have acted against freedom of religion. Just because a woman is following her beliefs, it has become some crime? But it is their country.
 
 It is not necessary to hide the face. That Burqa is not any Islamic dress. And wearing it as described with only eyes visible through a slit is nothing Islamic. It was not a good way of dressing up in public.
 
 But while it was not a good way of dressing in public, I would say that it was the best way to do it in France where the people need to learn some lessons about decency. The other extreme can be seen in some streets of Paris where the ladies are standing naked waiting for their customers. Is there no law for them?
 
 There has been extremism on both sides. So let them do it to each other. The morrocon lady wants to teach the French people a lesson about her good religion. The French people want to teach her and punish her.
 
 It is necessary for all Muslim ladies to be modest when they go to live in western countries. There is no need to cover the face. They should not keep their faces covered when in public. It is necessary for recognition. If they dress the way that Moroccon has done, they create probelms for the law enforcing agencies too. Moreover, they shoud abide by the laws of the land where they live and should not un-necessarily try to oppose the government.
 
 If that Morocon woman feels that she should follow the Shariah law then she should go to live in Afghanistan or saudi Arabia where she may find some kind of Sharia. It is also proved by the Quran and Hadith that face may not be covered. It is not necessary to cover the face all the time. That is not a part of Shariah at all. So the woman is wrong. She may have become famous due to her act. But she brought a bad name to her religion. While getting publicity, she brought bad publicity to Islam.
 
 That muslim lady has created a problem for all muslim ladies in those western countires. It was alright what she tried. But if it was not allowed by the government, then it was not necessary to carry it too far to a limit. It was not her religious duty at all to do that. Such persons create problems for Islam. So even if she was doing something good, it has turned out to be very bad.
 
 That is why they say " Too much of everything is bad".


Edited by minuteman - 13 July 2008 at 6:36am
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2008 at 6:31am
Actually Beleiver you, or a woman could. Women can chose not to, with maybe the exception of Saudi Arabia.

Though I wonder if they termed it her "submission" is to husband etc. Did they ak her. Cause it could very well be her submission to Allah. Wonder how accurate that is myself.

Womn I know who wear the faace veil, believe they should.. Though I do agree if wear the head covering only is fard then probably she should have done it for the interview or whatever..she woud not be breaking an Islamic injunction by doing so. Both are accepted.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Salams_wife
 
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Quote Salams_wife Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2008 at 9:06am
Okay, well, do we know if this woman did cooperate when it was necessary for her to remove her veil for identification purposes?  That would be my only concern.
 
Going back to the example of the nuns or even monks for that matter.  I am sure abstaining is not something french.  I believe God meant for us to procreate and have children so it is unnatural if you go against that.  Definitely not the french way of life. 
 
The point of this is none of these things are actually harming anyone else.  They are just a person's perspective on religion.  Whether we agree it is right or wrong.  She is not harming anyone by staying secluded in her home and wearing the veil when she comes out.  Nuns and monks aren't hurting anyone either other than possibly the future generations they could have produced.
 
I personally have no liking for the veil covering the face, but I don't feel a woman should be forced to take it off except when it is really necessary like for identification (drivers license picture, passport picture, etc).
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Ron Webb
 
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2008 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by minuteman

 But while it was not a good way of dressing in public, I would say that it was the best way to do it in France where the people need to learn some lessons about decency. The other extreme can be seen in some streets of Paris where the ladies are standing naked waiting for their customers. Is there no law for them?
I hope you are exaggerating.  I'm sure there is a law in France against being naked in public.
 
There is no law against skimpy, sexually enticing clothing. however.  Nor is there a law (as far as I know) against wearing a burqa.  Both extremes are legal, though neither may be socially acceptable in many circumstances.
 
The difference is that this woman wears only a burqa, whereas the women you are referring to, who often wear next to nothing, would probably have the good sense to show up for an immigration hearing dressed modestly and appropriately to the culture of the country they want to enter.  In short, they are able to conform to the norms of French society, even if they sometimes choose not to.
 
My question is: why would this woman want to live in France?  Why move to a country whose values are so different and so incompatible with her own?
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Salams_wife
 
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Quote Salams_wife Replybullet Posted: 13 July 2008 at 8:01pm
Good question, but then again, she may be there because that is where her relatives including her husband chose to be.  Obviously she would want to stay with them and they may already have citizenship there.
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