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Iftikhar
 
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Quote Iftikhar Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2008 at 2:22am
Salaam

It is not Islam and Muslims who are creating problems, actually it is
British society creating problems for the Muslim community.

The Muslim community has been vicitm of Paki-bashing in all walks of life by the British society and Establishment for the last 60 years. Now it is
vicitm of terrorism by the British Establishment. Thousands of Muslim youth are being serched in the streets and hundreds of them are behind the bar without any trial.

State schools with non-Muslim monolingual teachers are not suitable for
Muslim children. This is the reason why majority of them leave schools with low grades.

God has created diverse human beings to live in this tiny global villageas
of one family. Creation by its very nature is deverse with different
species, different communities, different cultures and languages. These
differences represent the beauty and wonder but diversity is sometimes not fully appreciated, resulting in all sorts of clashes. The British society
and Establishment must learn to respect and accommodate others, as if in a family.

A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want to
become notoriously monolingual Brit. He/she is supposed to be well versed in standard English, Arabic, Urdu and other community languages, to be part of the Britisah society, as well as proud of his.her cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of his/her literature and poetry
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Quote aspacia Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2008 at 9:43am
Originally posted by Whisper

Often Muslim Imams perpetuate this by insisting that Muslims not assimilate. 
Really? How many Muslim Imams have you observed?


I have often written to Islamic religious scholars regarding certain claims.  For example, is it true that the recent Sura's supercede previous Sura's?  No response.  Why no answer?

It would have been a wee matured or just simply a bit wiser to say that it's something cultural. "Ethnocentricism" is quite a known phenomenon. It takes place all over the world. It's not merely some Muslim Centric-Imam-Induced disorder like everythng else wrong in our world seems to have become.


True, but why immigrate to another land, if you do not want to assimilate as guests in your new home?  Learn the language, culture, what is appropriate, what foods are allowed.  Heck, my mom made me take a year of French, and insisted I peruse a French etiquette book before we traveled there.  Put your bread on the table, not the plate; eat slowly, and do not clean your plate.

It's not that just the Indians and Pakistanis stick close to their own lot in the United Kingdom despite all the kindness shown by their host. The Brits living in Spain do exactly the same. Our pobre Amrekanos can't fire at those pobre starved Iraqis unless they have their own ghetto, complete with a McDonalds in their base camp!
It's all a part of our primitive herd feeling.
We are barking at the Imams because we just need to bark at something.


Funny, I do not tend to bark, only humiliate.  Also, remember, westerners tend to bark regarding most issues, and religious tenets.  That is called Freedom of Speech, but it is not legal to promote violence.  People screamed about Buchannon wanting Chavez assassinated.  He was even threated with a lawsuit, and had to apologize.  How often do you rail against religious calls to violence? 

Also, in my profession, I must mix with peers, and Winkstudents from around the world. 



Edited by aspacia - 20 July 2008 at 9:49am
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Quote aspacia Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2008 at 10:04am
Originally posted by Salams_wife

Originally posted by aspacia

Iftikhar,

According to your logic, Saudi Arabia should accommodate Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Pagan, Shinto, et. al also. 

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

When you immigrate to another land, try not to expect this new land to accommodate its guest; the guest accommodates its host, accepts its rules, or politely leaves: (admin: link was removed)
 
For one thing, why would Saudi accomodate people of other faiths that only come to work in Saudi.  Those people are not citizens.  In fact, very few people in Saudi are not muslims so there isn't enough to accomodate in the first place.


People are not allowed to practice another faith in Arabia, and Shia's often suffer discrimination. Saudi Arabia expects visitors to abide by their mores, why shouldn't we expect the same?    I know, and have read accounts of Saudi Arabia shredding Bibles in their airports.  How would you react is our government shredded your book?
 
I have also seen how Americans in other countries often live as close to a lifestyle as possible in other countries with other cultures.  The Brittish are the same in this regard as well.  What you are saying is muslims must assimilate, but Christians and other western people do not have to when they go somewhere different. 


I am stating that we are expected to abide by societal norms in other lands, then visitors and immigrants can be expected to abide by our societal mores.  This holds true of people of any faith, including Satanists.  Just because a religious text claims x, does not mean than a person of that faith may do x, if x is illegal.

[quote]What is wrong with someone wanting to practice their faith and culture so long as they are productive members of the society where they live?


Nothing is wrong with practicing one's faith, and celebrating one's culture.  Mum's British, and celebrates the 4th of July with a huge pool party, but underneath Old Glory, hangs the flag of St. George.  She respects our laws and norms.  Respect is a two way street.
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Quote aspacia Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2008 at 10:22am
Originally posted by Iftikhar

Salaam

It is not Islam and Muslims who are creating problems, actually it is
British society creating problems for the Muslim community.

The Muslim community has been vicitm of Paki-bashing in all walks of life by the British society and Establishment for the last 60 years. Now it is
vicitm of terrorism by the British Establishment. Thousands of Muslim youth are being serched in the streets and hundreds of them are behind the bar without any trial.


I would leave.

State schools with non-Muslim monolingual teachers are not suitable for Muslim children. This is the reason why majority of them leave schools with low grades.


I am monolingual, lost most of my French and German, does this make me "not-suitable?"      No, the children need to learn the language of the land, and not expect the host country to adjust to their needs.  The numerous immigrants that come to the U.S. are expected to learn the language, and adjust to our culture, not vice-versa.

God has created diverse human beings to live in this tiny global villageas of one family. Creation by its very nature is deverse with different species, different communities, different cultures and languages. These
differences represent the beauty and wonder but diversity is sometimes not fully appreciated, resulting in all sorts of clashes. The British society
and Establishment must learn to respect and accommodate others, as if in a family.


Here we disagree, you are the guests who should adjust, not vice-versa.  I smoke, but when I go to a nonsmokers home, I do not smoke because I respect their rules.

A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want to become notoriously monolingual Brit. He/she is supposed to be well versed in standard English, Arabic, Urdu and other community languages, to be part of the Britisah society, as well as proud of his.her cultural roots and enjoy the beauty of his/her literature and poetry


True enough, but he/she might be more accepted if he/she becomes fluent in the language.  What you seem to claim, is that you do not want to be British, and understand British heritage?  This is part of the problem that causes resentment among the British population. 

The West provides a K-12 education because the more educated the population, the better the society will be.  Learn the other languages, and your heritage, but also learn the host's language and heritage.  Respect the people and the laws of the land, but do not expect special privileges.
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2008 at 10:42am
It is not Islam and Muslims who are creating problems, actually it is
British society creating problems for the Muslim community.
 
My brother, we have to be fair in blame distribution. We will have to accept the fact that our hosts have shown a very broad shoulder in accepting not just the numbers, but, primarily, a very raw quality of arrivals from the subcontinent.
 
I wonder if you could list the problems that "the Britsh Society" is producing for you? My experience is that our folks inhibit any contact with the locals and it starts early in the school years. This inhibition continues and, in most cases, it grows more severe in later years. How many Asian kids have British or, for that matter, even Polish, Italian or other European friends?
 
The isolation, this inhibition takes place through our own "ethnocentricism", via our own cultural arrogance, which makes us feel as if shalwaar was something personally designed by the Creator!
 
Our parents, mother in special, promote this isolation for securing madre's younger sister's daughter's future through a marital tie with her son. This gets upset if he is allowed to find out that the locals (we call them foreigners in our daily use lingo!) are as, if not more, human as our neighbour from Dadyal or some girl we know from Sialkot.
 
On the whole, our hosts have put up far more than what we would have put up had they found their way into our homelands even in far smaller numbers. The Brits are, genarally, a very fair and kind people. They have placed all the facilities at our end and yet we, sometimes, blow their legs away by bombing their trains and buses.
 
We ghetoise and create the sadness of a broken society.
 
The Muslim community has been vicitm of Paki-bashing in all walks of life by the British society and Establishment for the last 60 years. Now it is
vicitm of terrorism by the British Establishment. Thousands of Muslim youth are being serched in the streets and hundreds of them are behind the bar without any trial.
Yaar'em, I have no idea where you live in the UK, but here in Manchester the Pakistanis hold the top drug dealers record. Shall we compute the Card abuse or other criminal sting figures of just this ethnic group?
 
Though, I wouldn't name her, but a world famous barrister who had tutelage with Tony and Cherie blair and has worked on international cases with Hilary Clinton, once told me that she used to take on cases of Pakistanis just out of her Lahore affiliation. She gave up because her experience is that a Pakistan will rather tell a lie and go in for 7 years hard labour than tell the truth and go scot free!
 
She explained the reason for this behaviour. It's cultural, our lot is brought up in forced marriages of intense family political soap operas. Mothers keep grooming their youngsters about to what to say and what not to say in front of specified set of relations. Certain quarters of the family are supposed to be excluded from certain realities.
 
We live in our our world of Bollywood or Lollywood fantasies.
We exclude the host communities from our lives. 
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Quote aspacia Replybullet Posted: 20 July 2008 at 10:54am
Yes Whisper.  As you mentioned earlier, this is ethnocentrism, and we all suffer from this.  I am doing my best, and may be utterly failing, to understand.   

LOL, we have multicultural day, we have Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Pagan, Buddhist speakers on campus, and this includes various foods and costumes from the various cultures.  LOL, a Samoan teacher brought his drums, and the students presented a Samoan dance.   

Keep on attempting to break the walls down WhisperClap  I am trying to do the same from my end.

Also, keep in mind that I critique all faiths, not just Islam.  I recently exchanged several emails with a Rabbi regarding his misleading claim, and still interpret Exodus differently than he does.


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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2008 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by aspacia



I have often written to Islamic religious scholars regarding certain claims.  For example, is it true that the recent Sura's supercede previous Sura's?  No response.  Why no answer?


 
Just because you wrote to certain scholars - and didnt get a response does not mean they didnt have an answer etc. I have written to many myself - and seldom recieved an answer. That has more to do with the time and resource constraints - since scholars are flooded with questions everyday. So what?
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2008 at 12:57pm
[QUOTE=aspacia]
 
QUOTE]
 
Although I do not condone everything that that the Saudi government does. . . one cannot compare Saudia Arabia with USA/UK (or anyother country) in this regard. Since Saudia Arabia is a hub of Muslims who go there for pilgrimage, the govt has to undertake EXTRA precautions to keep the country free from bid'aat i.e. innovations and any external religous influence that may interfere with the pilgrimage. That is like comparing Pakistan with the Vatican City. Places that are a hub of worship and worshippers have to take extra precautions and measures.
 
There are NUMEROUS muslim-majority nations in the world, yes. . . there are others apart from Afghanistan and Saudia Arabia. MOST of them are very tolerant to non-muslims and thier beliefs. And they happily coexist.
 
USA on the other hand prides itself on its multi-cultural, multi-ethnic heritage. It is a land of the 'Immigrant'. . . they cannot apply rules on others that they themselves did not follow. The same courtesy of 'ethnicty' and heritage needs to be extended to the muslim immigrants as well. As for UK - the British never tried to assimilate, but kept a cool distance themselves. . .
 
Having said that . . . I also believe Muslims should also not have undue expectations of the host country and not out-grow thier welcome. I dont understand why some muslims feel the undue need to force changes - Islam is a very simple way of life, with no complications. . . . there is no need to create a mini-version of thier hometown in every country around the world. . . .especially under the brand of Islam. There has to be a compromise and negotitations - 0n both sides.
 
Unless the host country is infringing rights. . . there is no need to create a fuss over every issue. . . and create ill-feelings. If the host-country is willing to accept our demands/suggestions - then alhamdulilah. . . wonderful! But if not. . . .move on. Islam provides us with almost all answers on how to live amongst non-muslims and proper ettiquette. One can function perfectly fine in a nonmuslim society . . . Islam is not difficult.
 

 
 

 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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