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Originally posted by minuteman

 Robin, you have presented the verse 47:4 of Surah Muhammad  as follows:

 Surah (Chapter) 47:4
"4   Therefore, when ye meet* the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): Thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): But if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah,-He will never let their deeds be lost.

   6   And admit them to The Garden** which He Has announced for them."

 Please note  that these are verses of Surah Muhammad (47). Note in verse 3 and 4, there is the word Kafir. That is an open enemy of the faith. He is not a simple peaceful disbeliever. I have coloed red the word disbeliever in your post. Please read the verse as follows:

 "4   Therefore, when ye meet  the hostile war monger type disbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): Thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): 

 It shows that there is another party who is fighting. In such condition, it was  told to the Muslims to fight like hell. To kill some of them (not all)  and to bind them (those remaining alive) and keep them bound untill the war ends.
After that it was allowed to release those catured after getting some ransom or to release them without any ransom. All that is found in the verse itself.

 It further proves that there was no pressure to convert them to Islam. Even if they did not convert, they could be released without getting any ransom. Please see the words of the verse above.

 The word Kafir is used twice in that verse. Kafir is an open (manifest) declared enemy. No doubt about his enmity. 

THE PROPHET JESUS SAID 'YOU MUST LOVE' THE "KAFIR", IF NOT YOU DO NOT FOLLOW THE PROPHET JESUS!

Examples of how the real followers of Jesus act:-

"A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service." (The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333) "It will be seen presently that the evidence for the existence of a single Christian soldier between 60 and about 165 A.D. is exceedingly slight; . . . up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least, no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism." (The Early Church and the World, by C. J. Cadoux, 1955, pp. 275, 276) "In the second century, Christianity . . . had affirmed the incompatibility of military service with Christianity." (A Short History of Rome, by G. Ferrero and C. Barbagallo, 1919, p. 382) "The behavior of the Christians was very different from that of the Romans. . . . Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers." (Our World Through the Ages, by N. Platt and M. J. Drummond, 1961, p. 125) "The first Christians thought it was wrong to fight, and would not serve in the army even when the Empire needed soldiers." (The New World's Foundations in the Old, by R. and W. M. West, 1929, p. 131) "The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service." ("Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177," by F. P. G. Guizot in The Great Events by Famous Historians, edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246) "While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes."-The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416. (it-1 p.176)

and

"Certain religions were more popular with soldiers than others. There is no evidence of Christianity in the army during the first century A.D. possibly because the early Christians were strict pacificists.

5 Acts of Maximilianus 1.11-5 Musurillo 1972:17), AD 295
            On 12 March at Tebessa in the consulship of Tuscus and Anullinus, Fabius Victor was brought into the forum along with Maximilianus; Pompeianus was allowed to act as their advocate. He said 'Fabius Victor, agent responsible for the recruiting tax (temonarius), is present along with Valerianus Quintianus, imperial officer (Praepositus Caesariensis), and Victor's son Maximilianus, an excellent recruit. Since he has the necessary qualities, I request that he be measured'.

Dion the proconsul said: 'What is your name?'.
Maximilianus replied: 'Why do you want to know my name? I am a not permitted to serve in  the army since I am a Christian'.
Dion the proconsul said: 'Get him ready'.
While he was being made ready Maximilianus replied: 'I cannot serve in the army; I cannot do evil; I am a Christian'.
Dion the proconsul said: 'Let him be measured'.
When he had been measured, one of his staff said: 'He is five feet ten inches tall' (about 5 feet 8 inches in English measurements).
Dion said to his staff: 'Give him the military seal'.
Maximilianus, continuing to resist, replied: 'I am not going to do it; I cannot serve as a soldier'.

This is one of the more reliable of the Christian Martyr Acts, and may have been based on an a official report of the trial. If so, it serves as a good example of the examination of a potential recruit in the first two centuries of the imperial period since it is unlikely that the general procedures had changed significantly. The military seal was piece of lead containing a seal and the recruit's name, which he wore round his neck. For minimum height requirements, see Vegetius, 1.5."-The Roman Army 31BC-AD337 by Brian Campbell p.12

Edited by robin - 08 July 2008 at 1:10am

Author	Message
robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 08 July 2008 at 12:48am
	*Originally posted by minuteman* Robin, you have presented the verse 47:4 of Surah Muhammad as follows: Surah (Chapter) 47:4 "4 Therefore, when ye meet* the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): Thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): But if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah,-He will never let their deeds be lost. 6 And admit them to The Garden which He Has announced for them." Please note that these are verses of Surah Muhammad (47). Note in verse 3 and 4, there is the word Kafir. That is an open enemy of the faith. He is not a simple peaceful disbeliever. I have coloed red the word disbeliever in your post. Please read the verse as follows: "4 Therefore, when ye meet the hostile war monger type disbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): Thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): It shows that there is another party who is fighting. In such condition, it was told to the Muslims to fight like hell. To kill some of them (not all) and to bind them (those remaining alive) and keep them bound untill the war ends. After that it was allowed to release those catured after getting some ransom or to release them without any ransom. All that is found in the verse itself. It further proves that there was no pressure to convert them to Islam. Even if they did not convert, they could be released without getting any ransom. Please see the words of the verse above. The word Kafir is used twice in that verse. Kafir is an open (manifest) declared enemy. No doubt about his enmity. THE PROPHET JESUS SAID 'YOU MUST LOVE' THE "KAFIR", IF NOT YOU DO NOT FOLLOW THE PROPHET JESUS! Examples of how the real followers of Jesus act:- "A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service." (The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes, 1947, p. 333)** "It will be seen presently that the evidence for the existence of a single Christian soldier between 60 and about 165 A.D. is exceedingly slight; . . . up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least, no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism." (The Early Church and the World, by C. J. Cadoux, 1955, pp. 275, 276) "In the second century, Christianity . . . had affirmed the incompatibility of military service with Christianity." (A Short History of Rome, by G. Ferrero and C. Barbagallo, 1919, p. 382) "The behavior of the Christians was very different from that of the Romans. . . . Since Christ had preached peace, they refused to become soldiers." (Our World Through the Ages, by N. Platt and M. J. Drummond, 1961, p. 125) "The first Christians thought it was wrong to fight, and would not serve in the army even when the Empire needed soldiers." (The New World's Foundations in the Old, by R. and W. M. West, 1929, p. 131) "The Christians . . . shrank from public office and military service." ("Persecution of the Christians in Gaul, A.D. 177," by F. P. G. Guizot in The Great Events by Famous Historians, edited by R. Johnson, 1905, Vol. III, p. 246) "While they [the Christians] inculcated the maxims of passive obedience, they refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes."-The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, by Edward Gibbon, Vol. I, p. 416. (it-1 p.176) and "Certain religions were more popular with soldiers than others. There is no evidence of Christianity in the army during the first century A.D. possibly because the early Christians were strict pacificists. 5 Acts of Maximilianus 1.11-5 Musurillo 1972:17), AD 295 On 12 March at Tebessa in the consulship of Tuscus and Anullinus, Fabius Victor was brought into the forum along with Maximilianus; Pompeianus was allowed to act as their advocate. He said 'Fabius Victor, agent responsible for the recruiting tax (temonarius), is present along with Valerianus Quintianus, imperial officer (Praepositus Caesariensis), and Victor's son Maximilianus, an excellent recruit. Since he has the necessary qualities, I request that he be measured'. Dion the proconsul said: 'What is your name?'. Maximilianus replied: 'Why do you want to know my name? I am a not permitted to serve in the army since I am a Christian'. Dion the proconsul said: 'Get him ready'. While he was being made ready Maximilianus replied: 'I cannot serve in the army; I cannot do evil; I am a Christian'. Dion the proconsul said: 'Let him be measured'. When he had been measured, one of his staff said: 'He is five feet ten inches tall' (about 5 feet 8 inches in English measurements). Dion said to his staff: 'Give him the military seal'. Maximilianus, continuing to resist, replied: 'I am not going to do it; I cannot serve as a soldier'. This is one of the more reliable of the Christian Martyr Acts, and may have been based on an a official report of the trial. If so, it serves as a good example of the examination of a potential recruit in the first two centuries of the imperial period since it is unlikely that the general procedures had changed significantly. The military seal was piece of lead containing a seal and the recruit's name, which he wore round his neck. For minimum height requirements, see Vegetius, 1.5."-The Roman Army 31BC-AD337 by Brian Campbell p.12 Edited by robin - 08 July 2008 at 1:10am
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minuteman Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1642	Posted: 08 July 2008 at 4:33am
	That is beside the point. The words of Jesus were right for that time. It was necessary to be like that, to act like that. Even prophet Muhammad acted like that for thirteen years in Makkah. Exactly the way Jesus had advised his disciples. Remember that our prophet Muhammad is like Jesus and like Moses a.s. He had two names, i.e. Muhammad and Ahmad. The name Ahmad was in action in Makkah for the first 13 years. Ahmad means "The one who praises (Allah) most", i.e. the one who praises maximum. This name Ahmad is the Jamaali name, i.e. it has beauty and love and gentleness. (as had Jesus) The name Muhammad was the picture of Moses a.s. Muhammad was like Moses a.s. and that name was in action in Madinah. That is the name called "jalaali=authoritative, glorious, powerful. That was like Moses a.s. Muhammad means "The one who is praised most (by Allah)", i.e. praise worthy. The problem is that love your enemy cannot be the ultimate lesson. Nobody can do it. But I know that Jehovas Witnesses are against bloodshed and they may be against joining armed forces too. That is their business and I would not say anything against that. But please remember that Islam does forget forgiving (loving) the enemy. It also tries to love the enemy if the love could be helpful (useful} to that enemy. I hope you understand the Islamic point of view. The Muslims are told to love and forgive the enemy if that will help him to understand things. If it would help him to come to the right track, better gentle way of life. (He need not become a Muslim. But he must become peaceful). But if love will not help him then there is no use loving him. That would spoil him all the more. I can present the verses of Quran in this regard that the teachings of the Quran do suggest loving and forgiving if it could be useful. Edited by minuteman - 08 July 2008 at 4:38am
	If any one is bad some one must suffer
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believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 08 July 2008 at 10:16am
	24 One man gives freely, yet gains even more; another withholds unduly, but comes to poverty. 25 A generous man will prosper; he who refreshes others will himself be refreshed. Proverbs 11:24-25 1 "Be careful not to do your `acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. Matthew 6:1-4 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous." Luke 14:13-14 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. I John 3:17-18 In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: "It is more blessed to give than to receive." Acts 20:35 for riches do not endure forever, and a crown is not secure for all generations. Proverbs 27:24 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. II Corinthians 9:7 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give Matthew 10:8 Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless. Ecclesiastes 5:10 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. Hebrews 13:2
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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believer Guest Group Joined: 08 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1397	Posted: 08 July 2008 at 10:58am
	mariyah – Matthew, Luke and Mark are not from St. Paul. They are part of the very Gospel validated in the Quran. 005.068 YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over people without Faith. PICKTHAL: Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk. SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people. Here is the Gospel dealing with the verses in the original aramaic. http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Peshittainterlinear/1_Matthew/Mattich26.pdf http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Peshittainterlinear/2_Mark/Marqsch14.pdf http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Peshittainterlinear/3_Luke/Luqach22.pdf Edited by believer - 08 July 2008 at 10:59am
	John 3 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 08 July 2008 at 3:26pm
	*Originally posted by minuteman* That is beside the point. The words of Jesus were right for that time. It was necessary to be like that, to act like that. Even prophet Muhammad acted like that for thirteen years in Makkah. Exactly the way Jesus had advised his disciples. Remember that our prophet Muhammad is like Jesus and like Moses a.s. He had two names, i.e. Muhammad and Ahmad. The name Ahmad was in action in Makkah for the first 13 years. Ahmad means "The one who praises (Allah) most", i.e. the one who praises maximum. This name Ahmad is the Jamaali name, i.e. it has beauty and love and gentleness. (as had Jesus) The name Muhammad was the picture of Moses a.s. Muhammad was like Moses a.s. and that name was in action in Madinah. That is the name called "jalaali=authoritative, glorious, powerful. That was like Moses a.s. Muhammad means "The one who is praised most (by Allah)", i.e. praise worthy. The problem is that love your enemy cannot be the ultimate lesson. Nobody can do it. But I know that Jehovas Witnesses are against bloodshed and they may be against joining armed forces too. That is their business and I would not say anything against that. But please remember that Islam does forget forgiving (loving) the enemy. It also tries to love the enemy if the love could be helpful (useful} to that enemy. I hope you understand the Islamic point of view. The Muslims are told to love and forgive the enemy if that will help him to understand things. If it would help him to come to the right track, better gentle way of life. (He need not become a Muslim. But he must become peaceful). But if love will not help him then there is no use loving him. That would spoil him all the more. I can present the verses of Quran in this regard that the teachings of the Quran do suggest loving and forgiving if it could be useful. Through not doing as Jesus said fills the earth with evil violence and blood shed! Thus religions are at fault that disobeys him!
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robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 11 July 2008 at 12:54am
	Jesus Christ further deserves honour because the Bible says of him at:- Matthew 28:18 And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: *“All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.** ”Given” passed tense Matthew 11:27 All things have been delivered to me by my Father*, and no one fully knows the Son but the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father but the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him. ” have been” passed tense. John 3:35 *The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.** ”Given” passed tense John 17:2 according as you have given him authority over all flesh*, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. ”Given” passed tense Luke 10:22 All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and who the Son is no one knows but the Father; and who the Father is, no one [knows] but the Son, and he to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.” *” have been” passed tense. An further to the above he deserves honor because he is Jehovah’s chief angel, or archangel. On what basis do we reach that conclusion? Well, the prefix “arch,” meaning “chief” or “principal,” implies that there is only one archangel. God’s Word speaks of him in reference to the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. We read at 1 Thessalonians 4:16:- "because the Lord [Jesus] himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Of this archangel has a name, as we read at Jude 9:- “When Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: ‘May Jehovah rebuke you.’” In not running ahead of Jehovah by daring to bring judgment against the Devil, Jesus thus honoured his God and heavenly Father Jehovah.
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minuteman Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1642	Posted: 11 July 2008 at 2:32am
	robin, that is not the reply to my post. I had explained to you that our prophet acted like did Jesus for 13 years in Makkah. He never opposed the oppressor. All the Muslims suffered very much at the hands o fthe pagans. The Muslims were killed in large numbers by the cruel pagans. The Muslims even had to migrate to a nearby decent christian kingdom. But the pagans followed the Muslims there too. So the prophet and Muslims did act (for 13 years) exactly as Jesus had been teaching. But I would remind you that Jesus had a plan to buy the swords even by selling clothes. That is written in the bible. He had ordered for swords to be bought even by selling clothes. What was the purpose?? He was not doing anything useless or meaningless. The only thing is that he did not get that far where he could use a sword. He had the plan but his enemies caught up too quickly with him.
	If any one is bad some one must suffer
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robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 11 July 2008 at 11:30am
	*Originally posted by minuteman* robin, that is not the reply to my post. I had explained to you that our prophet acted like did Jesus for 13 years in Makkah. He never opposed the oppressor. All the Muslims suffered very much at the hands o fthe pagans. The Muslims were killed in large numbers by the cruel pagans. The Muslims even had to migrate to a nearby decent christian kingdom. But the pagans followed the Muslims there too. So the prophet and Muslims did act (for 13 years) exactly as Jesus had been teaching. But I would remind you that Jesus had a plan to buy the swords even by selling clothes. That is written in the bible. He had ordered for swords to be bought even by selling clothes. What was the purpose?? He was not doing anything useless or meaningless. The only thing is that he did not get that far where he could use a sword. He had the plan but his enemies caught up too quickly with him. Like Jesus true Christian engage in spiritual warfare:- 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare according to [what we are in the] flesh. ⁴ For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. ⁵ For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge* of God; and we are bringing every thought* into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ. .."* *Thus spiritual We do as Jesus did said, when he was dying, 'forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.' Edited by robin - 11 July 2008 at 11:31am
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