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seekshidayath
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 02 July 2008 at 7:26pm

As'Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu,

All my praises be to Allah swt. Am glad sister that we are back to normal moods. May Allah swt forgive us for being  indifferent to each other.  InshaAllah, i hope this discussion hereonwards, shall benefit us to gain knowledge with deep discussions.

Coming to one of   the points  of discussion in your above post -

"I was speaking in regards to the matter of this particular thread. Over and over again The Holy Quran states that men and women are equal in the judgement of Allah, yet for some reason many Muslims seem to choose the Hadith that denigrate women.

Certainly, Men and woman are equal in the JUDGEMENT of Allah swt. This term equality shall be discussed below , inshaAllah. Regarding that hadith, sister why do you look at it as women being denigrated. Infact you shud feel happy that women are being protected and taken care. Can you  kindly paste that hadith here again.

 
Hadith are the words of men regarding the actions and behavior of the Prophet. The Hadith are not the Word of God, nor has Allah guaranteed that the Hadith would not be free of mistakes, as with The Quran. "

So, will you rejects all the hadiths, as you feel they are not free of mistakes. These have been verified and reverified and then were collected . Hadith -e- Qudsi are word of God, though the verbatim differs. Anyways, the hadiths being quoted is authentic hadith. So, there rises no question of  mistakes in it.

Now, coming to an other point which needs a very detailed explanation - Men and Women in Islam

Let us first try to understand this tern 'Equality".   In  an other faith, women as a human being, irrespective of rights and responsibilities, is considered an inferior being, one  who committed the first sin and hence was condemned forever. She is considered inferiror. When the they  broke itself away from religion, at the  start of Renaissance, there was nothing which could provide as basis for the concept of equality between men and  women as human beings. So they then constructed a concept, which was based on having equal rights and responsibilities in different spheres of life. This is what the whole feminist movement is all about. - Even "Woman's day" is being celebrated, and all such movements and fights for rights , khayr. Now coming to Islam , Allah states  that men and women are created equal.  - We need to rememner that  this  equality does not mean  IDENTICALITY.  We are equal as humanbeings. But when we look at responsibilities and rights assigned to both men and women, they differ. Here Allah swt the - Al-Adl  { The- Just },  He takes them into account with equal justice, even after assigning then with different responsibilities according to there natural inclinations.


Its not the woman in Islam are not deared to Allah swt or men are dearer to Allah swt.

Allah swt says  "if any do deeds of righteousness - be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Paradise, and not the least  injustice will be done to them."[4:124]. Dr. Zakir Naik  often explains this concept with this example. Before that let me quote a verse , "“And the male is not like the female” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:36] . This shows that both are not alike. Anyways, lets read this example.


In a class, two students - student ‘A’ and ‘B’ get the highest marks in a subject - 80 out of 100.

The question paper consisted of 10 questions, each of 10 marks.

In the first answer student ‘A’ gets 9 out of 10, student ‘B’ gets 7 out of 10. So in question 1 student ‘A’ has a degree of advantage than student ‘B’.

In question 2, student ‘B’ gets 9 out of 10, and student ‘A’ gets 7 out of 10. So in question 2, student ‘B’ has a degree of advantage, than student ‘A’.

In the remaining 8 questions, both get 8 out of 10, and if you total the marks of both the students, both get 80 out of 100.

So if you analyze, both student ‘A’ and ‘B’ have got over all equal marks.

But in answers to some questions, student ‘A’ has a degree of advantage and in answers to some other questions, student ‘B’ has a degree of advantage - but in terms of overall marks, both are equal.

Since men and women both came from the same essence, they are equal in their humanity. Hope sister, you have now understood  my point well with the above example.

Now, let us see how this A  and B score up in different answers. I mean how men and women are assigned with different responsibilities.

Men can marry woman from ahle kitab and woman cannot.

A woman may wear silk and gold, but a man must not wear them

Prayer in the mosque is obligatory for men, but not for women; a woman’s prayer in her house is more beloved to Allah

Men are different from the female in many ways, in his strength, in his body, in his toughness and roughness, whereas women are soft and gentle, though sometimes they are very harsh. Smile

Women are bore a child while men cannot.

 Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men. So two witnesses of woman are equal to one.

"And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her”

 One of them is asked to remind other because of there forgetful nature


Jihad is obligatory for men, but jihad in the sense of fighting is not obligatory for women.

Don't you agree sister that women are more emotional than men. When a child falls down and gets hurted, see the differences of reaction of a mother and a father. Men are not capable of doing women's job. They  can neither raise children nor can they provide the most necessary love and care to them.

And yes, not to forget  these two hadiths - "Paradise is under the feet of a mother " and the other one is

"A person came to Prophet Mohammed (saw), and asked him, ‘Who is the person who deserves the maximum love and companionship in this world ?’

The Prophet replied, ‘Your mother.’

The man asked, Who next?’

The Prophet said, ‘Your mother.’

The man asked, ‘After that who?’

The Prophet repeated for the third time, ‘Your mother.’

The man asked, ‘After that who?’

Then the Prophet said, ‘Your father.’

So, 75% or 3/4 of the love and companionship of the children are due to the mother and only 25% or 1/4 of the love and companionship goes to the father. In other words, the mother gets the gold medal, she gets the silver medal, as well as the bronze medal. The father has to be satisfied with a mere consolation prize.  Dr. Zakir Naik quotes this.

You did not want me to quote of  "Qawammah". So i leave it. And the other difference ---- yes, awarah is different for them. Men shud cover  the area between navel and kness, whereas its different for women.


 A man can have 4 wives at a time and a woman cannot. In case of separation she gets preference over men in getting the custody of children.

Women are allowed to reject any marriage proposal made to her by prospective suitors, thus if she does not feel she can abide by the rules of the Qur'an and Sunnah if she marries a certain person, she can reject his proposal.

Incase of Ibadahs both are assigned equally. Like the salah is same, Wuduh, zakah etc
 
Women are like men in some aspects and they differ from them in others. Most of the rulings of Islam apply to men and women equally. In cases where a distinction is made between the sexes, the Muslim are to regard  that as a mercy from Allah swt. We shud n't forget that while there accountability we all shall be judged by The Just.


Edited by seekshidayath - 02 July 2008 at 7:39pm
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 02 July 2008 at 9:21pm
Chrysalis you said:
 
Temptation stems from the Male...
 
So are women immune to temptation? Or we (men) just hormonal creatures?
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2008 at 10:06am
Seekshadith:
 
Once again, I take exception to any "sheik" stating that men are superior mentally to women.  That is what I am speaking of, and I see no proof of that in the Quran.  None of what you posted really even addresses this point.
 
As for women being weaker in memory and forgetting more than men, who was responsible for memorising most of the Hadiths?  A woman..... This is supposed to be in matters where the woman might not have knowledge regarding what they are swearing to: how to change a catalytic converter.  Ask any man how many centimeters his wife dilated before she crowned or what size tampons she needs on the fourth day of her menses....
 
You did not want me to quote of  "Qawammah". So i leave it. And the other difference ---- yes, awarah is different for them. Men shud cover  the area between navel and kness, whereas its different for women.
 
This is just common sense.
 
 A man can have 4 wives at a time and a woman cannot. In case of separation she gets preference over men in getting the custody of children.
 
This is because of paternity.

Women are allowed to reject any marriage proposal made to her by prospective suitors, thus if she does not feel she can abide by the rules of the Qur'an and Sunnah if she marries a certain person, she can reject his proposal.

So are men.
 
This is my point: there are those within the Islamic Ummah who state that women are created inferior to men mentally.  I ask only that proof be shown that Allah states this in the Quran.  That's all. 
 
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2008 at 10:09am
Originally posted by Israfil

Chrysalis you said:
 
Temptation stems from the Male...
 
So are women immune to temptation? Or we (men) just hormonal creatures?
 
Well, women are brainless ninnies who shouldn't leave their homes for fear of tempting you, or maybe because we might forget how to get back?
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2008 at 11:05am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Originally posted by Israfil

Chrysalis you said:
 
Temptation stems from the Male...
 
So are women immune to temptation? Or we (men) just hormonal creatures?
 
Well, women are brainless ninnies who shouldn't leave their homes for fear of tempting you, or maybe because we might forget how to get back?
 
I don't know the relevance of your point or is it a "feminist rant" but I certainly did not say that women are such!
 
I do believe that even during the prophet's time (which historically it is shown he didn't change it) that Arab society as well as most of the civilized world was largely partriarchal. Women staying home tending the children while men worked is a developed social system developed out of patriarchal society because it establishes a hierarchal system in the family. the reason sister Nausheen and other Muslimah's (as well as non-muslims e.g. Angela) argue for this type of system is purely out of two things: religious tradition and social conditioning.
 
It this type of family structure is supposedly divinely related then the people will be taught, conditioned and perform what their religion says overlooking any of the realistic circumstances. They will argue in defense and wven try to show proof using statistics to show why this type of familial system is important this is why I wasn't surprised to see Muslim women being on the defensive regarding women staying home tending the children. there are even some feminist women who argue for women's independence yet, still perpetuate patriarchal values by their defending on the patriarchal system of family.
 
When I came on the scene on this issue some time ago I was one against many who supported this patriarchal system because at the time I was the 'outsider' on this issue. As an arguably Muslim man, I reject this patriarchal system wholeheartedly and will not choose it for my life. I believe in the independence of women and them being autonomous creatures. I do not believe women should just stay home and work and support the family but BOTH men and women help support the family. A man who simply works, works, works just to provide in the Muslim culture shows that men's familial bond between wife and child is demphasized.
 
I believe men are capable of staying home cooking and cleaning and taking care of the children is as calable of performing these duties as women have for centuries. Because I don't see myself being a millionare of billionare anytime soon, I hope to find a woman who is a working professional and independent. I hope we share the same realistic values of family and hope we can work as a TEAM and not independent of each other. don't get me wrong I have no objections of a woman staying home especially when she is birthing my child-(ren), but I have objections to a woman who, at the beginning will say "I'm staying home and taking care of the house and children because its my [Islamic] right." Women must understand that rights don't equal priviledge it means in law that you have the 'legal' choice to do certain things.
 
Men who are sheikhs who comment on these issues have no 'right' to comment on what a woman should and should not do. How can a male, comment on the role of what it is a woman should do? Male Sheikhs have no say so over anything gender related. This is why I definitely support the creation of women Imams and scholars on gender issues within the Muslim community. Although class issues within the female gender would be internal issues in female commentaries I believe women are capable of explaining social issues regarding family, children, and what they want at home and at work.
 
Muslim women on this website who support this male dominant patriarchal system have a hard time counter arguing my point on how this type of family system is gender neutral. In this system men have the upper hand and if you believe otherwise please counter argue this point. Legally, at least in America if I work and provide for the woman and take care of my children and decide to divorce my wife for whatever reason I have the legal upper-hand because a woman has nothing to show for what she has done except what she does at home. Although women working at home can be as hard as working in the "real" world (depending on your financial circumstances) women are not independent because essentially, they depend on the man to take care of them and the children economically, socially, and even spiritually. Like I said, in this syetm men have the upper hand and its sad so many women are blind that they don't see it.
 
I want a woman who don't need me financially but is co-dependent on me emotionally and spiritually and wants to work as my teammate instead of my subordinate.

 
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2008 at 8:12pm
[QUOTE=Israfil]
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Originally posted by Israfil

Chrysalis you said:
 
Temptation stems from the Male...
 
So are women immune to temptation? Or we (men) just hormonal creatures?
 
Well, women are brainless ninnies who shouldn't leave their homes for fear of tempting you, or maybe because we might forget how to get back?
 
I don't know the relevance of your point or is it a "feminist rant" but I certainly did not say that women are such!
 
I do believe that even during the prophet's time (which historically it is shown he didn't change it) that Arab society as well as most of the civilized world was largely partriarchal. Women staying home tending the children while men worked is a developed social system developed out of patriarchal society because it establishes a hierarchal system in the family. the reason sister Nausheen and other Muslimah's (as well as non-muslims e.g. Angela) argue for this type of system is purely out of two things: religious tradition and social conditioning.
 
It this type of family structure is supposedly divinely related then the people will be taught, conditioned and perform what their religion says overlooking any of the realistic circumstances. They will argue in defense and wven try to show proof using statistics to show why this type of familial system is important this is why I wasn't surprised to see Muslim women being on the defensive regarding women staying home tending the children. there are even some feminist women who argue for women's independence yet, still perpetuate patriarchal values by their defending on the patriarchal system of family.
 
When I came on the scene on this issue some time ago I was one against many who supported this patriarchal system because at the time I was the 'outsider' on this issue. As an arguably Muslim man, I reject this patriarchal system wholeheartedly and will not choose it for my life. I believe in the independence of women and them being autonomous creatures. I do not believe women should just stay home and work and support the family but BOTH men and women help support the family. A man who simply works, works, works just to provide in the Muslim culture shows that men's familial bond between wife and child is demphasized.
 
I believe men are capable of staying home cooking and cleaning and taking care of the children is as calable of performing these duties as women have for centuries. Because I don't see myself being a millionare of billionare anytime soon, I hope to find a woman who is a working professional and independent. I hope we share the same realistic values of family and hope we can work as a TEAM and not independent of each other. don't get me wrong I have no objections of a woman staying home especially when she is birthing my child-(ren), but I have objections to a woman who, at the beginning will say "I'm staying home and taking care of the house and children because its my [Islamic] right." Women must understand that rights don't equal priviledge it means in law that you have the 'legal' choice to do certain things.
 
Men who are sheikhs who comment on these issues have no 'right' to comment on what a woman should and should not do. How can a male, comment on the role of what it is a woman should do? Male Sheikhs have no say so over anything gender related. This is why I definitely support the creation of women Imams and scholars on gender issues within the Muslim community. Although class issues within the female gender would be internal issues in female commentaries I believe women are capable of explaining social issues regarding family, children, and what they want at home and at work.
 
Muslim women on this website who support this male dominant patriarchal system have a hard time counter arguing my point on how this type of family system is gender neutral. In this system men have the upper hand and if you believe otherwise please counter argue this point. Legally, at least in America if I work and provide for the woman and take care of my children and decide to divorce my wife for whatever reason I have the legal upper-hand because a woman has nothing to show for what she has done except what she does at home. Although women working at home can be as hard as working in the "real" world (depending on your financial circumstances) women are not independent because essentially, they depend on the man to take care of them and the children economically, socially, and even spiritually. Like I said, in this syetm men have the upper hand and its sad so many women are blind that they don't see it.
 
I want a woman who don't need me financially but is co-dependent on me emotionally and spiritually and wants to work as my teammate instead of my subordinate.

 
[/QUOTE]
 
Geez Israfil, sometimes you are a little slow on the uptake. I was sarcastically alluding to previous posts. You know, men are hormonal and so weak minded they can't control themselves so women have to stay hidden away and women are brainless and unable to reason so it's better if they stay hidden away. And to protect the men from their raging hormones, of course.
 
I think we are actually kinda on the same side here, except regarding the Islamic right of the woman to stay home if she chooses. Allah obliges men to provide full maintenance and that is something that is not in question. It is not any scholar's opinion, it is written in The Quran, therefore the Word of God.
 
BTW: Go Boston! Go Boston! Smile
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2008 at 9:16pm

Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men.

 

And I’ll take my memory capabilities over the vast majority of people I have ever met and I am a woman.  Allah has well-endowed me with a “man’s memory” capacity.. my niece is brilliant at math.. guess she has a “man’s” brain as well… maybe she got this from her grandmother who studies chemistry in college back in the 1930s… lol Smile

 

It funny some people just want to base everything on one’s gender. Let’s face it. We all know weak women and we’ve all known weak men. We all know st**id people who make poor decisions of both. We know really smart people. We know really pious people.  We know some families where the man makes all the decisions and some where the woman does or else nothing would happen. I’ve met “dramatic” people of both who are so into themselves you feel you are watching a movie-there is so much drama...

 

Its interesting how cultural it all is... Like when they were interviewing women in Saudi Arabia. Some said women should not vote cause they cannot make a rational choice. And here.. we have many women who know women can make reasonable and rational decisions, who are strong who are becoming Muslims. None who I know of would have become Muslims if it said in anyway in the Quran that we are mentally inferior…

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2008 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by Hayfa

Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men. 

 
  Why is it that my wife is able to reproach me with vivid details of some problem I caused her 15 years ago as if it were yesterday?
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