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seekshidayath
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Topic: A muslimah in frustration
    Posted: 30 June 2008 at 7:08pm
As'Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu,
 
I did read sister {Shasta'aunt} at an other section replying me.
 
"Anyways Angel, women in Islam are given maximum freedom, which they can enjoy to the fullest. But if they try to cross them, they not only contaminate themselves, but also the whole society. We did read, how well do other religions treat women . Show me one single religion, which gives her such freedom.
 
Shasta'a aunt, a muslim woman can come out if there is necessity. But again if she defines her own definition of necessity, it may be tough again. Unless, the basic eminities are not met, she can go out for jobs."
 
If Muslim women have maximum freedom, which I personally believe they do, then they have the right to go out whenever they choose to do so. Your statement putting conditions on this negates your avowel of maximum freedom. If she has to, if a man lets her, but not if she herself defines the necessity, she can't cross boundaries or she will contaminate society....  All of this to feed your children? No wonder so many non-Muslims think Islam treats women so badly. It's not Islam, it's the Muslims
.
 
 Sister, you seem to take out all your anger. I did not want you to reply there, as it's a non-muslim's section. secondly we are not to debate. I see you more active here , also its a subject pertaining to "women".  So i thought this is a relevant section.
 
The boundaries / limits i was talking of were not  set  by me but by the shariah. Else it may lead to fitnah . Thus, she may be a cause to contaminate the society. Kindly read this link
 
 
 
 
 
May Allah swt, bestow all of us with patience and peace, and help us in adhering principles of this true religion. Ameen.
 


Edited by seekshidayath - 30 June 2008 at 7:22pm
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2008 at 5:52am
it is irritating when women are defined as "cotaminating" society. They ARE society, usally half. Women are dirty, they are polluted, a contaminator... it just makes me sad. Unhappy
 
Unfortunately, most of these verses only apply to middle, upper middle class and wealthy women.
 
If I do not go out and work I shall starve. This is the case for most women in the world.  It would be great to follow the Shirah if we lived in an environment that had the Shirah as its model. And no where does it exisit.
 
And then really, only the rich shall marry.. thus causing more fitna.
 
Now as a western person living in western society, I am quite stumped as to how a Muslim woman in hijab is the cause of "contaminating" society. In fact it might be the other way around as they are seen and visable and they can meet nonMuslims. We actually may cause one or two people to question the path they are on.
 
And considering the vase quanities are quite haram activity, the most decent thing may be those women in hijab. One never knows.
 
It may be the language.. but words like contaminate makes us seem like a bacteria. And I am not a germ thank you.  
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2008 at 11:04am
"The fact that Allaah has given men more than women in terms of reasoning, thinking and physical strength is something concerning which there is no dispute."
 
WHAT???  If there is no clear dispute on this, where is the daleel?
 
Honestly, this whole subject and the archaic thinking of some women regarding this matter has made me exhausted.
 
Sister, if you want to stay at home and be treated as someone who has less sense and rights than men that is your choice.  I find nothing in The Quran to justify this way of thinking, and if a Hadith cannot be verified by The Quran then the Word of Allah must have precedence. 
I will personally accept the Word of Allah and leave you to accept what you will.
 
 
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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seekshidayath
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2008 at 5:24pm
As'Salamu Alaikum ,
 
May be that was usage of a wrong word - {contaminate }.  Am very sorry that .
 
But i do vary your opinions again. SIster, { hayfa}, am not saying that even when there is a necessity, she cannot assist her husband financially. Who is asking her to starve ?  There may be necessity of work even for widows or divorcees too. On the other hand, they have an other option to get married again. Why do they not enable themselves with this "right" then, instead of going out and causing fitnah. { be it direct or indirect }.
 
And about the rules which you say get applied in an Islamic state -- Ahhhh !  Does that mean a muslimah, residing in a non-Islamic country  may or may not  wear hijab, can she speak to non-mahrams ,  can  use perfumes and thus, attract everyone around her, --- can do all those sorts which are to be implemented only in a islamic state ?
 
If so, then even Adultery and  drinking shud be haram in an Islamic state only. I don't understand on what basis is it said that these are the rulings only for an Islamic state.
 
Woman itself is a cause of temptation. So is she commanded to wear a hijab and come out when necessary. If you have read that link, you must have come across the verse wherein it is addressed to mother of believer to stay in there homes. At an other verse it is commanded to come out of necessity. I don;t  say that woman are to be in home always, They can come when necessity demands, but they are to be mindful of these conditions . I do respect these woman who work in hijab. I was answering shasta's aunt where she says that   there are no such conditions and they are made by me. Those links show up the conditions which are derived from Qur'an and sunnah .
 
Shasta's Aunt:
 
 
Honestly, this whole subject and the archaic thinking of some women regarding this matter has made me exhausted
 
These opinions of mine and those who agree with my thoughts may be archaic to you, but remember teachings of Islam are never archaic.
 
Shasta's aunt :
 
Sister, if you want to stay at home and be treated as someone who has less sense and rights than men that is your choice.
 
Firstly sister, i  would have ignored your sentence addressed to me at an other thread.  But since you were getting personal, and even in this sentence of yours you are getting personal, i had to start up. It shall be kind of you if you discuss the topic  in general terms. Alhamdulliah, i have many good friends and wellwishers apart from from family to advice me. You need not bother what i teach - in so called your words- "teach your children" or stay at home as someone who has less sense" -  If needed advice seek it.
 
i find nothing in The Quran to justify this way of thinking, and if a Hadith cannot be verified by The Quran then the Word of Allah must have precedence. 
 
On what basis can you claim so. If you do not find a hadith complying Quranic verse , will you reject it ?  If all hadiths are to be verified by Qura'an then there was  there is no need of hadith itself.
 
Suppose if any hadith contradicts with Qur'an then can we take up the verse and leave that hadith, as it may not match the context. BUt denying hadiths when there is not verse to it - is n't correct.
 
Quran repeatedly orders us to  obey Allah and obey Prophet! If every order of Prophet had to be verified by Quran then "Obey Allah" was enough. Why did Allah added obey prophet repeatedly.
 
 
May Allah SWT. guide all of us and help us in gaining knowledge that which is correct so that we implement it in our lives. Ameen
 
Am sorry for being tough but i had to be.
 
 
 


Edited by seekshidayath - 01 July 2008 at 11:43pm
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 02 July 2008 at 1:33am
Although I may not be directly involved with the issue at hand. . . I felt compelled to say something. . .
 
The subject is a little strange, 'muslima in frustration' . . . are you referring to yourself Seeks, or Sis Shasta's Aunt?
 
Secondly, Can't Non-Muslims access this section? I think they can . . . and thus one has to be careful with whatever they, in whatever section. Which is why with all due respect I would ask all the ppl with certain views with regard to Female Rights in Islam, to keep the personal opinions seperate from those of Islam. The Non-Muslims probably read all the cultural-based stuff here, and say 'Hah! Islam IS a female-subjugating religion' . . .when in reality it isnt.  Same with the Sisters/Brothers section . . .I dont think one can maintain exclusivity on an online forum, due to its public nature, even if they wish to.
 
 
 
The boundaries / limits i was talking of were not  set  by me but by the shariah. Else it may lead to fitnah . Thus, she may be a cause to contaminate the society. Kindly read this link
 
One of the Links you yourself posted, mentions VARIOUS working muslim women . . . with no mention that anyone of them worked because they were starving or widows or divorced. THESE ARE THUS WITHIN Islam's boundaries. . . Hazrat Zainab, the Prophet's wife earned simply because she wished to give Charity out of her own earnings.
 
A woman who steps out of the house DOES NOT  automatically cause Fitnah. Fitnah is caused by MEN & WOMEN who have sinful intentions, or disregard Islamic Ettiquette. And please do not quote the Hadith about women & Fitnah, because that does not refer to the all the WOMEN, but is saying that MEN should mind themselves, because Women are a temptation for them, thus can lead to Fitnah. It is not labelling the women as Fitnah . . .Niether are all believeing Muslimah = Fitnah.
 
Lastly, we have already gone through a pretty lengthy discussion on Working Women, and thus I saw no need to start another thread for it. Obviousley we all have our own views, and nobody is going to be changing them.
 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 02 July 2008 at 1:49am
Originally posted by seekshidayath

As'Salamu Alaikum ,
 
Woman itself is a cause of temptation.
 
Women are not intrinsically or naturally a 'tempatation'. Temptation stems from the Male, not the female. WHICH IS WHY Islam talks about the male hijab BEFORE the woman. And ORDERS them to lower thier gaze and guard thier modesty. MEN WILL BE QUESTIONED for thier own action. NO MUSLIM MAN will get away scott free fror Allah, because an attractive woman "misled" him or "tempted" him. He will be held responsible for his OWN action, and unless the woman was not following Hijab, she will not be held accountable, simply for venturing out.
 
If one wants to blame anyone, blame the weak, spineless "tempted" male. Not the Muslimah who ventures out. EVEN if a man is surrounded by women of loose character, HIS responsibility to protect his chatsity does not waver. Because he is NOT supposed to be looking at them ANYWAY.
Do not put all the blame on the women and ask them to stay behind closed doors, simply becase Men cannot obey Allah's order.
 
EVEN IF, supposedly all Muslim Women could be locked up, a muslim male will HAVE to face non-muslim females in thier/other countries, WHAT THEN? You cannot enforce Hijab on them . . . HENCE they need to work on the Imaan and Faith.
 
 
 
 
These opinions of mine and those who agree with my thoughts may be archaic to you, but remember teachings of Islam are never archaic.
With all due respect, though your basis/source IS Islam, the point of view slightly seems to deviate from the actual practise during Prophet Muhammad's time, and what he sanctioned, i.e. Women would venture out of thier houses, and not always due to neccassity.
 
 
 
 
 
 
If you do not find a hadith complying Quranic verse , will you reject it ?  If all hadiths are to be verified by Qura'an then there was  there is no need of hadith itself.
The Hadith may not have an exact verification in the Qur'an, but if it contradicts what the Qur'an says, then yes, it is to be considered unauthentic, and rejected. All authentic Ahadith, comply with Quranic Injunctions. . . i.e. are in accordance with what Allah says.
 
 
Quran repeatedly orders us to  obey Allah and obey Prophet! If every order of Prophet had to be verified by Quran then "Obey Allah" was enough. Why did Allah added obey prophet repeatedly.
 There is no doubt about what you said. But if a Hadith is contradicting the Qur'an, I am not going to say that na'azubillah the Prophet was wrong, because that cannot be. . .I am going to say that the narrator made a human error and most probably misquoted the Hadith
 
 
May Allah SWT. guide all of us and help us in gaining knowledge that which is correct so that we implement it in our lives. Ameen
Ameen.
 
Apologies for any disrespect.
 
 


Edited by Chrysalis - 02 July 2008 at 1:50am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 02 July 2008 at 7:12am
Sister:
 
I apologise if I seem harsh, but I have to honestly say, if I were a non-Mulsim thinking about Islam as my religion and read some of these posts I would be terrified.
 
Islam does not teach that women are responsible for men's temptation, men are responsible for their own thoughts and deeds.
 
The links you posted contradict each other. One states that women can work if they want and moved about freely, in hijab, at the time of The Prophet, the other states the opposite. Which is correct?
 
By archaic I meant before the time of the Prophet when women were treated as belongings and baby girls had so little value they were buried alive. Islam put a stop to all of that, yet many people today seem to be resorting back to that way of thinking. Perhaps not to the point of killing their baby girls, yet, but definitely to the point of controlling the thoughts and actions of women.
 
I took exception to what was written: "The fact that Allaah has given men more than women in terms of reasoning, thinking and physical strength is something concerning which there is no dispute."
 
So I will ask you this:  if a Muslim woman commits murder, what is her punishment? If a Muslim man commits murder what is his punishment?  They are the same. If a Muslim man commits zina what is his punishment? If a Muslim woman commits zina what is her punishment? They are the same.  What about theft? Didn't the Prophet himself say if Fatima commited theft he would cut off her hand?
 
What about the Quran? Does it prescribe different punishments or levels of punishment for men and women who sin? No. In fact the Quran states over and over again that men and women will be punished and rewarded according to their actions. There is nothing written within the Quran that states men and women will be punished differently for their actions. I can post the Ayats if you like.
 
Now, I have to ask if you believe that Allah(SWT) is Fair, Just, and Merciful? If you believe this to be true, then how can women have been created with less reasoning and thinking abilities than men, yet be subject to the same punishments as men, in this life and on the Day of Judgement?
 
If we are indeed created that way, it is not our fault, so how can we be equally guilty as a man who was created smarter and superior to woman? Surely if Allah(SWT) created us with less reasoning and thinking abilities than men, then He would have given us a different set of punishments for the same crimes/sins.  We would obviously not be as responsible for commiting those sins as men because we wouldn't have the created ability from Allah to think it out and reason through what we were doing like a man.
 
IF Allah(SWT) created men with superior thinking and reasoning, yet He punishes women the same as men, then that is not fair or just or even merciful. Allah(SWT) would be holding us to a standard that we could not reach because He had created us with less ability to think and reason through our actions.  
 
So, either Allah(SWT) created women equal to men, and thus holds us equally accountable for our sins and deeds as states in the Quran, or Allah(SWT) created us not equal to men in our mental capacities, yet holds us equally accountable as men for our sins and deeds, even though by His own creation we can NEVER be mentally equal. So Allah(SWT) would be punishing us for the way He created us.


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 02 July 2008 at 7:15am
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 02 July 2008 at 8:11am
"i find nothing in The Quran to justify this way of thinking, and if a Hadith cannot be verified by The Quran then the Word of Allah must have precedence. 
 
On what basis can you claim so. If you do not find a hadith complying Quranic verse , will you reject it ?  If all hadiths are to be verified by Qura'an then there was  there is no need of hadith itself.
 
Suppose if any hadith contradicts with Qur'an then can we take up the verse and leave that hadith, as it may not match the context. BUt denying hadiths when there is not verse to it - is n't correct"
 
I was speaking in regards to the matter of this particular thread. Over and over again The Holy Quran states that men and women are equal in the judgement of Allah, yet for some reason many Muslims seem to choose the Hadith that denigrate women.
 
Hadith are the words of men regarding the actions and behavior of the Prophet. The Hadith are not the Word of God, nor has Allah guaranteed that the Hadith would not be free of mistakes, as with The Quran.
 
4:1 O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.
 
Allah created all of us from a single person, we are of like nature and have mutual rights. There is nothing stated here that men have superiority over women, rather we are the same.
 
49:13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
 
The only superiority in the sight of Allah is the most righteous. I hope you REALLY grasp what this Ayat is stating.
 
78:8 And (have We not) created you in pairs,
 
Created in pairs, of like nature
 

32:8 And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised:

 

32:9 But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!

All of mankind has been given the faculties of understanding. All of the progeny of Adam and Eve, men and women. There is nothing stated in the Ayat that only man was given understanding, or woman was given less understanding.
 
3:195 And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath;- A reward from the presence of Allah, and from His presence is the best of rewards."
 
4:124 If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.
 
Nowhere is it stated that men and women are not held equally responsible. And if women were not equal, then it would be an injustice to hold them equally accountable, but this Ayat makes it clear this is not the case.
 
33:35 For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
 
Equal reward...

33:59 O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Apparently Allah states it is fine for Muslim women to go out, as long as they are covered.
 
Please show me the Ayats from the Quran, not Hadith, which abrogate the Ayats posted here or prove that men are superior to women or that women have less thinking and reasoning abilities than men. And please do not use the qiwamah, or maintenance, because that is an obligation given to men by Allah, not a part of their genetic make-up. If men were genetically created to work and provide maintenance there wouldn't be so many women having to work.
 
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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