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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2008 at 10:43am
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by honeto

Robin,
I agree with what you said.
In Islam we believe that for mankind there is only One true religion or way since the creation of Adam. And that is submission to the One and Only God, in practice that is Islam. Adam was a Muslim, and so were all of God's prophets sent in different times all over the world, like Noah, Moses, Abraham, David, Jesus and Mohammed (pbut).
Those of us who know the Creator through logic and knowledge and surrender to His will,  and follow the guidance sent by Him for our times are on the right path.  Those who deny the Judgement Day and deny the logic and knowledge once it has reached their ears, eyes, heart and mind have lost belief, and are lost. Their denial of the Truth will serve as a witness against themselves on the day of Judgement, when their eyes, ears, heart and mind will testify against themself. They will be the losers that Day, and what a loss that will be, a loss forever.
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Adam did not submit to God but rebelled by disobeying him and eating the fruit Jehovah told him not to:-

 

Genesis 2:16-17

And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

 

 

Genesis 3:11-12

From the tree from which I commanded you not to eat have you eaten?” 12 And the man went on to say: “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me [fruit] from the tree and so I ate.”

 

Genesis 3:17-19

And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

 
Thus he dies for his badness! 
 
Robin,
Adam did what some of us do often, do something that is not to be done, a sin or to disobey God, because something wrong attracted us. That does not mean we don't submitt to God.
Submitting to God means to acknowledge and believe that there is One God, the Creator, who has a set of rules for us revealed, so we follow them, when we fail to follow any one of them, we fall into sin or disobidience to God, we acknowledge our mistake, turn to our Maker for forgiveness and Mercy.
We are told that, once we realize  we made a mistake and sinned, and we repent, God will turn to us in Mercy, as He is The Merciful God.  God will forgive us for our mistakes and reward each one of us for our good deeds.
 
You say Adam did not submitt to God. That is wrong assumption because, not submitting to God means to refuse God as your Cereator and to refuse to live by His commands.
Adam, submitted to the will of God, fall in error and sinned, later he realized his mistake and repented and according to the Final Testament was forgiven by God, the Merciful.
 
The Quran:2:37 "Thereupon adam received words [of guidance] from his Sustainer, and He accepted his repentance: for, verily, He alone is the-Acceptor of Repentance, the Dispenser of Grace."
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 30 June 2008 at 10:59am
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2008 at 11:26pm
 Robin's post of 27 June, was a reply to my earlier post, all shown below:
 
 
1. Is trinity the truth?
NO!
 Thanks Robin for going against Trinity.
 
2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not?
IN HEAVEN JESUS IS A LESSER GOD.
HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD'S POWER.
 That is not a clear reply to my question. It means that Jesus is a lesser god. That means you do not believe in Trinity but you believe in Duality (two gods). Also, you have not cleared the matter about holy ghost.
Holy ghost is God's power. But is it a god or not? Please tell.
 
 
3. Did Jesus die on the cross?
NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE).
That is another problem. Now we are entangled between a cross and a stake. What types of beliefs are these of the JW's. It means that Jesus died on the stake. So the JW's do not talk about any cross. Jesus was not on a cross. He was on a stake. Do you Robin believe that?/ please tell so that we can forget about the cross from now onward.
 
4. Did Jesus come back to life after death (called resurrection)?
YES.
 That means he died at the stake and he got up or lived again after dying. So the JW's believe in the resurrection. Thanks for the info. A lesser god had died and then came back to life after two days,,,
 
5. Do the JW's believe in the original sin?
YES, IT WAS DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD. 
 That means the JW's believe that Jesus died for the sins of others. They believe in the atonement. Thanks again for such info.
 
6. Did Jesus die and take away the sins of people (Atonement)?
YES, BY HIS BLOOD,
 
  That is understood by your above reply too. No comments.
 
7. Is it necessary to be baptised nowadays?
YES 
 
 Very good. Are the JW's baptising nowadays?  Very good idea.
 
8. Did Jesus meet any of his arch enemies after getting up (rising)?
EXPLAINE PLEASE
 
 You believe that Jesus became alive after being dead for two days. He came out of the tomb alive and walked away. After walking away, did he meet any of his arch enemies who had ordered his execution by crucifixion? Did he appear before any of the soldiers or Kiafa (his big enemy)?  Now that you have understood my question, please explain the problem to me.
 
9. Did he go bodily to heavens or only his soul went up?
HUMANS DO NOT HAVE SOULS THEY ARE SOULS
SOUL CAN MEAN LIFE.
JESUS WAS RAISED A SPIRIT BEING.
 
 You had understood my question. Please answer. Jesus had a body and a soul. I would like to know whether Jesus went up to heavens in his body or only his soul went up. Do not give a new lecture about human do not have souls.
 
10. When will he come back and what he wil do?
HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS
 
 Do you mean to say that jesus has returned to earth in 1914? Then where is he now please? I am only interested in knowing where is Jesus now?
 
 In the end I thank you for taking the trouble to give answers to my ten questions as shown above in blue. I am learning something about the Jehova's Witnesses. Thanks.


Edited by minuteman - 30 June 2008 at 11:30pm
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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robin
 
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2008 at 10:17am
Originally posted by minuteman

 Robin's post of 27 June, was a reply to my earlier post, all shown below:
 
  
In the end I thank you for taking the trouble to give answers to my ten questions as shown above in blue. I am learning something about the Jehova's Witnesses. Thanks.
 

 2ND REPLY

1. Is trinity the truth?

NO!

 Thanks Robin for going against Trinity.

THE TRINITY IS BASED ON PAGAN GREEK PHILOSOPHY WHICH IN TRUN DRAWS A LOT OF IT IDEAS FROM ANCIENT PAGAN EGYPTIAN THEOLOGY, THUS ANYONE WHO BELEIVES IT IS PRATCICING PAGANISM!

 

2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not?

IN HEAVEN JESUS IS A LESSER GOD.

HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD'S POWER.

 That is not a clear reply to my question. It means that Jesus is a lesser god. That means you do not believe in Trinity but you believe in Duality (two gods). Also, you have not cleared the matter about holy ghost.

Holy ghost is God's power. But is it a god or not? Please tell.

JESUS IS A TOTAL SEPRATE PERSON FROM GOD ALMIGHTY WITH HIS OWN WILL!

HE IS LIKE GOD BECAUSE GOD TELLS HIM WHAT TO DO AND HOW TO DO IT AND HE DOES IT!

HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT GOD IT IS AN IMPERSONAL POWER FROM GOD.

 

 

 

3. Did Jesus die on the cross?

NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE).

That is another problem. Now we are entangled between a cross and a stake. What types of beliefs are these of the JW's. It means that Jesus died on the stake. So the JW's do not talk about any cross. Jesus was not on a cross. He was on a stake. Do you Robin believe that?/ please tell so that we can forget about the cross from now onward.

THE CROSS IS ANOTHER PAGAN IDEA ABSORBED INTO CHRISTIANITY.

JESUS DIES THE JEWISH WAY, ON A STAKE. 

 

 

4. Did Jesus come back to life after death (called resurrection)?

YES.

 That means he died at the stake and he got up or lived again after dying. So the JW's believe in the resurrection. Thanks for the info. A lesser god had died and then came back to life after two days,,,

WHEN HE WAS ON EARTH HE WAS TOTAL HUMAN.

WHEN HE WENT BACK INTO HEAVEN HE WAS GIVEN HIS SPIRIT FORM BACK, THUS GOD LIKE1 

 

5. Do the JW's believe in the original sin?

YES, IT WAS DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD. 

 That means the JW's believe that Jesus died for the sins of others. They believe in the atonement. Thanks again for such info.

 

6. Did Jesus die and take away the sins of people (Atonement)?

YES, BY HIS BLOOD,

 

  That is understood by your above reply too. No comments.

 

7. Is it necessary to be baptised nowadays?

YES 

 

 Very good. Are the JW's baptising nowadays?  Very good idea.

 

8. Did Jesus meet any of his arch enemies after getting up (rising)?

EXPLAINE PLEASE

 

 You believe that Jesus became alive after being dead for two days. He came out of the tomb alive and walked away. After walking away, did he meet any of his arch enemies who had ordered his execution by crucifixion? Did he appear before any of the soldiers or Kiafa (his big enemy)?  Now that you have understood my question, please explain the problem to me.

BEFORE HE WENT BACK TO HEAVEN HE ONLY APPERED TO HIS FOLLOWERS ON EARTH 

 

 

9. Did he go bodily to heavens or only his soul went up?

HUMANS DO NOT HAVE SOULS THEY ARE SOULS

SOUL CAN MEAN LIFE.

JESUS WAS RAISED A SPIRIT BEING.

 

 You had understood my question. Please answer. Jesus had a body and a soul. I would like to know whether Jesus went up to heavens in his body or only his soul went up. Do not give a new lecture about human do not have souls.

FLEASH CANNOT GO INTO HEAVEN, SO NO, JESUS WAS RAISED UP IN SPIRIT FROM AND MATERALISED BODIES SO HIE FOLLOWER COULD SEE HIM THEM DEMATERALISED THEM.

 

 

10. When will he come back and what he wil do?

HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS

 

 Do you mean to say that jesus has returned to earth in 1914? Then where is he now please? I am only interested in knowing where is Jesus now?

NO!

HE WAS GIVEN HIS KINGSHIP IN 1914 IN HEAVEN.

JESUS IS NOW THE KING OF GOD’S KINGDOM IN HEAVEN AND WILL NEVER COME BACK TO THIS EARTH AGAIN!

 



Edited by robin - 02 July 2008 at 2:10pm
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 02 July 2008 at 3:41am
 
  Robin, thanks for giving more replies. I hope to understand your point of view. But I will be wondering where went the body that Jesus had. The body could not go up to heavens. So it must have remained on earth.
 
 Also, how did you calculate the year 1914 that Jesus got the kingship? More questions later. But you may answer the few that I have just asked. Thank you.
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2008 at 9:15am
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by minuteman

 Robin's post of 27 June, was a reply to my earlier post, all shown below:
 
  
In the end I thank you for taking the trouble to give answers to my ten questions as shown above in blue. I am learning something about the Jehova's Witnesses. Thanks.
 

  

2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not?

IN HEAVEN JESUS IS A LESSER GOD.

HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD'S POWER.

 That is not a clear reply to my question. It means that Jesus is a lesser god. That means you do not believe in Trinity but you believe in Duality (two gods). Also, you have not cleared the matter about holy ghost.

Holy ghost is God's power. But is it a god or not? Please tell.

JESUS IS A TOTAL SEPRATE PERSON FROM GOD ALMIGHTY WITH HIS OWN WILL!

HE IS LIKE GOD BECAUSE GOD TELLS HIM WHAT TO DO AND HOW TO DO IT AND HE DOES IT!

HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT GOD IT IS AN IMPERSONAL POWER FROM GOD.

 
 
Are humans like god?

 

 

3. Did Jesus die on the cross?

NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE).

That is another problem. Now we are entangled between a cross and a stake. What types of beliefs are these of the JW's. It means that Jesus died on the stake. So the JW's do not talk about any cross. Jesus was not on a cross. He was on a stake. Do you Robin believe that?/ please tell so that we can forget about the cross from now onward.

THE CROSS IS ANOTHER PAGAN IDEA ABSORBED INTO CHRISTIANITY.

JESUS DIES THE JEWISH WAY, ON A STAKE.

 
Actually it is not pagan nor asborbed into christianity, it was the way romans did captial punishment, by cruifying. Hence the image of Jesus on the cross. 

 

4. Did Jesus come back to life after death (called resurrection)?

YES.

 That means he died at the stake and he got up or lived again after dying. So the JW's believe in the resurrection. Thanks for the info. A lesser god had died and then came back to life after two days,,,

WHEN HE WAS ON EARTH HE WAS TOTAL HUMAN.

WHEN HE WENT BACK INTO HEAVEN HE WAS GIVEN HIS SPIRIT FORM BACK, THUS GOD LIKE1

 
Are humans god like to. 

 

 
10. When will he come back and what he wil do?
HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS

Do you mean to say that jesus has returned to earth in 1914? Then where is he now please? I am only interested in knowing where is Jesus now?

NO!

HE WAS GIVEN HIS KINGSHIP IN 1914 IN HEAVEN.

JESUS IS NOW THE KING OF GOD’S KINGDOM IN HEAVEN AND WILL NEVER COME BACK TO THIS EARTH AGAIN!

 
 
So, no second coming ??


Edited by Angel - 03 July 2008 at 9:20am
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2008 at 10:44am
Robin:
The warning God gave Adam was his help to Adam, as you say Adam had free will, which he abused in that he ignored God and paid the price!
 
 
Adam's disobedience to God is not abuse of his freewill but quite the opposite. Obedience especially when we have options to either be obedient or not is a choice. Some would say, paradoxically, that to not exercise such (Freewill) would be to consciously abuse it! Although this may be contradictory in its own complexity (since to not act would also be a choice in itself thus exercising freewill) Adam didn't abuse his freedom (even though some of you moralist may be inclined to say otherwise) but exercised his freewill yet, made a poor "choice." Just wanted to clarify that point.
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2008 at 2:56pm
Originally posted by Israfil

Robin:
The warning God gave Adam was his help to Adam, as you say Adam had free will, which he abused in that he ignored God and paid the price!
 
 
Adam's disobedience to God is not abuse of his freewill but quite the opposite. Obedience especially when we have options to either be obedient or not is a choice. Some would say, paradoxically, that to not exercise such (Freewill) would be to consciously abuse it! Although this may be contradictory in its own complexity (since to not act would also be a choice in itself thus exercising freewill) Adam didn't abuse his freedom (even though some of you moralist may be inclined to say otherwise) but exercised his freewill yet, made a poor "choice." Just wanted to clarify that point.
 
Genesis 2:17
But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."
 
Human free will is limited with in the bounds set by God, go out of bounds and it is an abuse that leads to death as it is doing the will of Satan The Devil, thus Adam died!
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 03 July 2008 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by minuteman

 Robin's post of 27 June, was a reply to my earlier post, all shown below:
 
  
In the end I thank you for taking the trouble to give answers to my ten questions as shown above in blue. I am learning something about the Jehova's Witnesses. Thanks.
 

  

2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not?

IN HEAVEN JESUS IS A LESSER GOD.

HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD'S POWER.

 That is not a clear reply to my question. It means that Jesus is a lesser god. That means you do not believe in Trinity but you believe in Duality (two gods). Also, you have not cleared the matter about holy ghost.

Holy ghost is God's power. But is it a god or not? Please tell.

JESUS IS A TOTAL SEPRATE PERSON FROM GOD ALMIGHTY WITH HIS OWN WILL!

HE IS LIKE GOD BECAUSE GOD TELLS HIM WHAT TO DO AND HOW TO DO IT AND HE DOES IT!

HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT GOD IT IS AN IMPERSONAL POWER FROM GOD.

 
 
Are humans like god?

 
"Let us make man in our image" only LIKE him!
 
Psalms  82:1-8   "God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One*;  In the middle of the gods** he judges:  "How long will YOU keep on judging with injustice  And showing partiality to the wicked themselves?  Be judges for the lowly one and the fatherless boy. To the afflicted one and the one of little means do  justice.   Provide escape for the lowly one and the poor one;  Out of the hand of the wicked ones deliver [them]."   They have not known, and they do not understand;  In    darkness they keep walking about;  All the  foundations of the earth are made to totter.    "I myself have said, 'YOU are gods***,  And all of YOU are sons of the Most High. . . ."

*N.W.T. (ftn) "Or, “God.” Heb., ´El; LXXVg, “gods”; Sy, “angels.”"

**N.W.T. (ftn) "Or, “godlike ones.” Heb., ´elo·him'; LXXVgc, “gods”; Sy, “angels”; T, “judges.”"

***N.W.T. (ftn) "Or, “godlike ones.” Heb., ´elo·him'; Gr., the·oi'; Syr., da´·la·hin; Lat., di'i; T, like   angels.”

 

N.I.V. Study Bible. Comment on Ps 82:6.

"I said.  Those who rule (or judge) do so by God's appointment (see 2:7 ; Isa 44:28) and thus they   are his representatives- whether they acknowledge him or not (see Ex 9:16; Jer 27:6; Da 2:21; 4:17.32; 5:18; Jn 17:11; Ro 13:1).  gods. See note on v. 1*. sons of. See note on v, 1, Most High.  See note on Ge 14:19."

*"An early rabbinic interpretation (see Jn 10:35-35) understanding the "gods" (vv. 1,6) to be unjust rulers and judges in Israel, of whom there were many . . . ."

 

K.J.V. Companion Bible, Ps 82:1

**"gods  Elohim: used of earthly judges as representing Him.  Cp. Ex. 21.6; 22.8, 9, 28 (quoted in   Acts 23.5.).  Hence Moses is so spoken of (Ex. 7. 1).  (it is used also of idols as representing even a    false god.)  See John 10. 34, 35."

 

"Verse 6. Ye are gods — Or, with the prefix of k ke, the particle of similitude,      keelohim, “like God.” Ye are my representatives, and are clothed with my power and authority to dispense judgment and justice, therefore all of them are said to be children of the Most High."-Clarke's Commentary OT, Vol. 3 Job - Song of Solomon by Adam Clarke p.1084

 

Psalm 82:6

 

“I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods, And all of YOU  are sons of the Most High.

 

If God can call humans “gods” by his own word and these are also “sons” and as it is there are many of them as it refers to them in the plural.

 

 

3. Did Jesus die on the cross?

NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE).

That is another problem. Now we are entangled between a cross and a stake. What types of beliefs are these of the JW's. It means that Jesus died on the stake. So the JW's do not talk about any cross. Jesus was not on a cross. He was on a stake. Do you Robin believe that?/ please tell so that we can forget about the cross from now onward.

THE CROSS IS ANOTHER PAGAN IDEA ABSORBED INTO CHRISTIANITY.

JESUS DIES THE JEWISH WAY, ON A STAKE.

 
Actually it is not pagan nor asborbed into christianity, it was the way romans did captial punishment, by cruifying. Hence the image of Jesus on the cross. 

 
The Romans did not Kill Jesus the Jews did!

The following is from various scholastic sources on the pre-Christian origin and use of the cross.

"Cross, a structure, usually an upright bearing a horizontal beam. The cross was common to most cultures from prehistoric times. It is used primarily as a religious symbol, and is the principal symbol of Christianity. The cross recalls the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ and the redeeming benefits of his Passion and death. It is thus a sign both of Jesus Christ and of the faith of Christians. A crucifix is a representation of Christ on the cross. Before the Christian Era, crosses were used as religious or other symbols; a variation, the swastika, was marked on many early Christian tombs as a veiled symbol of the cross. In the 4th century, after Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity, the cross became popular in Christian art and funerary monuments. In the 20th century Roman Catholicism began emphasizing the use of crucifixes in liturgical settings. Protestant churches use the cross ornamentally and ceremonially to varying degrees. The crucifix is usually confined to private devotional use; making a sign of the cross can be an act of profession of faith, a prayer, a dedication, or a benediction. see also St. Andrew's Cross."-Excerpted from The Complete Reference Collection. Copyright © 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997 The Learning Company

"One of the oldest amuletic signs in the world, perhaps even the oldest, is the CROSS, that is to say the figure which is made by two straight lines which bisect each other at right angles +. This is what in commonly understood by the word "cross," and not the single wooden pillar or pole to which malefactors condemned to death were tied, and which is spoken of by some writers as the crux simplex. It was at one time believed by many writers on ecclesiastical symbols, relics, etc., that the cross was entirely of Christian origin, but such is not the case, for it was in use among the pagan peoples of Eastern Asia and Europe many centuries before the death of Christ. That the pagan cross symbolised something quite different from that which the Christian cross commemorated hardly needs to be said. But judging by what we think we know symbolism of the pagan cross we are justified regarding it as a forerunner of the Christian cross. . . ."-'Amulets and Superstitions' by E.A. Wallis Budge p.336

"CROSS "The shape of the [two-beamed cross] had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as a symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent, A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the crosspiece lowered, was adopted to stand for the cross of Christ"-'An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words' (London, 1962), W.E. Vine, p.256

 
 

4. Did Jesus come back to life after death (called resurrection)?

YES.

 That means he died at the stake and he got up or lived again after dying. So the JW's believe in the resurrection. Thanks for the info. A lesser god had died and then came back to life after two days,,,

WHEN HE WAS ON EARTH HE WAS TOTAL HUMAN.

WHEN HE WENT BACK INTO HEAVEN HE WAS GIVEN HIS SPIRIT FORM BACK, THUS GOD LIKE1

 
Are humans god like to. 

 

Yes in that we can copy God's loving ways of doing things, he made us with that capasity, thus we can be like him.
 
 
10. When will he come back and what he wil do?
HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS

Do you mean to say that jesus has returned to earth in 1914? Then where is he now please? I am only interested in knowing where is Jesus now?

NO!

HE WAS GIVEN HIS KINGSHIP IN 1914 IN HEAVEN.

JESUS IS NOW THE KING OF GOD’S KINGDOM IN HEAVEN AND WILL NEVER COME BACK TO THIS EARTH AGAIN!

 
 
So, no second coming ??
 
The second  is now a past event it happend in 1914.
 
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