IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Jesus Christ was and is a Jehovah’s Witne

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Nur_Ilahi

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Posted: 28 June 2008 at 2:19am

Originally posted by robin

Adam did not submit to God but rebelled by disobeying him and eating the fruit Jehovah told him not to:-

Thus he dies for his badness!

Adam did not disobey God. His greatest sin was he FORGOT. Looking at his beautiful wife Eve, he forgot God's command.

Originally posted by robin

And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. ¹⁸ And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. ¹⁹ In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Robin, this quotation from the Bible give a depiction of a God is so Wrathful, so Revengeful So unMerciful, So Cruel.

I cannot swallow that as I believe in God who is AR-RAHMAN -MOST COMPASSIONATE, AR-RAHEEM- MOST MERCIFUL, AL-GHAFUR-,MOST FORGIVING AND AT-TAWWAB - ACCEPTER OF REPENTENCE.

When Adam and Eve realized that they have disobeyed God by eating the fruit they called:

"They said: 'Our Lord we have wronged ourselves souls. If You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers' " (Quran 7:23)

And God accepts their plea:

".. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went Astray. Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness, and gave him guidance." (Quran 20:121-122)

Edited by Nur_Ilahi - 28 June 2008 at 2:21am

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

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myahya

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Posted: 28 June 2008 at 6:09am

Robin :“Adam did not submit to God but rebelled by disobeying him and eating the fruit Jehovah told him not to”

This was not a so called rebel or disobedience. When Allah swt commanded Adam and his wife to avoid the tree, they actually obeyed (accepted it) without a doubt. After that Satan caused them to be out of the state they were in.

Quran (2:36) But Satan caused them to deflect from the state in which they were; and we said: Fall down, some of you are the enemies of others. There shall be for you on earth a habitation and provision till a time.

However, this can not be categorized as committing a sin because at that time there was yet no religion according to which you can define a sin. A sin can only be defined associated with the religion which is revealed to human (on the earth) to be guided. My evidence to this is the verse after the above verse in Quran which shows the start point of religion revelation for human being after coming on earth:

Quran (2:38) We said," Get down from it, all together! Yet, should any guidance come to you from Me, those who follow My guidance shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve.

On the other hand, falling down to earth was not really because of Adam and Ave eating from the tree. Before that Allah swt had told the angels about it in earlier verses:

Quran (2:30) So when your Lord told the angels:" I am placing an overlord on earth", they said:" Will You place someone there who will corrupt it and shed blood, while we hymn Your praise and sanctify You?" He said:" I know something you do not know.

Therefore, there is no original sin

Edited by myahya - 28 June 2008 at 6:12am

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Angel

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Posted: 28 June 2008 at 6:37am

Originally posted by robin

2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not?

IN HEAVEN JESUS IS A LESSER GOD.

so in a way He is still a God, just not the calibre of the Creator. This point of yours makes it that there is 2 Gods.

3. Did Jesus die on the cross?

NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE).

On a stake upright?? And how did He stay up there on the stake.

8. Did Jesus meet any of his arch enemies after getting up (rising)?

EXPLAINE PLEASE

I think the poster means, that did Jesus meet any of his enemies in heaven after rising up to heaven.

10. When will he come back and what he wil do

HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS

Jesus returned in 1914 ???

so the second coming has come and gone??

Edited by Angel - 28 June 2008 at 6:38am

[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

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robin

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Posted: 28 June 2008 at 9:38am

Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by robin

2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not?

IN HEAVEN JESUS IS A LESSER GOD.

so in a way He is still a God, just not the calibre of the Creator. This point of yours makes it that there is 2 Gods.

NO! THE WORD GOD IN THE BIBLE CAN BE GENERIC IN SENCE REFFERING TO A POWERFUL SPIRIT BEING OR PERSON EXAMPLE MOSES:-

Exodus 4:16 "And he* must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you** will serve as God*** to him*."

*Aaron; **Moses; ***N.W.T. (ftn) "As God.” Heb., le´·lo·him', pl.; Gr., the·on'; Lat., De'um."

Exodus 7:1 "Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: "See, I have made you God* to Pharaoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.

*N.W.T. "(ftn.) “God.” Heb., ´elo·him'; Gr., the·on'; Latin, De'um."

N.I.V. Study Bible. Comment on Ex 7:1 (and Ex 4:16).

*As God transmits his word through his prophets to his people, so Moses will transmit God's message through Aaron to pharaoh. The prophet's task was to speak God's word on God's behalf. He was God's "mouth" (4:15-16)."

3. Did Jesus die on the cross?

NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE).

On a stake upright?? And how did He stay up there on the stake.

NAILS AND A BLOCK UNDER HIS FEET

8. Did Jesus meet any of his arch enemies after getting up (rising)?

EXPLAINE PLEASE

I think the poster means, that did Jesus meet any of his enemies in heaven after rising up to heaven.

YES; HE OUSTED SATAN AND HIS DEOMNS FROM THERE; SEE REVELATION 12:7-9

10. When will he come back and what he wil do

HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS

Jesus returned in 1914 ???

so the second coming has come and gone??

AND IS ONGOING

Edited by robin - 28 June 2008 at 9:39am

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robin

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Posted: 28 June 2008 at 9:53am

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Originally posted by robin

Adam did not submit to God but rebelled by disobeying him and eating the fruit Jehovah told him not to:-

Thus he dies for his badness!

Adam did not disobey God. His greatest sin was he FORGOT. Looking at his beautiful wife Eve, he forgot God's command.

Robin, this quotation from the Bible give a depiction of a God is so Wrathful, so Revengeful So unMerciful, So Cruel.

I cannot swallow that as I believe in God who is AR-RAHMAN -MOST COMPASSIONATE, AR-RAHEEM- MOST MERCIFUL, AL-GHAFUR-,MOST FORGIVING AND AT-TAWWAB - ACCEPTER OF REPENTENCE.

When Adam and Eve realized that they have disobeyed God by eating the fruit they called:

"They said: 'Our Lord we have wronged ourselves souls. If You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers' " (Quran 7:23)

And God accepts their plea:

".. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went Astray. Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness, and gave him guidance." (Quran 20:121-122)

Allah told Adam that if HE eats the fruit from a certain tree he would die, so it was poison for him.

It was a warning, not to do things that would kill him (Adam), how can that be bad or wrong, would you not do it for you own child?

Adam did not listion so suffered form his OWN actions as God said he would, how can that be wrong?

God tried to stop him from doing bad, Adam did not listion to God, so how is God wrong when he tried to stop Adam doing things that would hurt himself?

If youer own child did things that you told him would bring pain, as you did not want your child to suffer, but he or she ignored what you said and did bad things behind your back how would you be wrong if you had done all in your power to stop it but, they took no note?

Your reasoning need to be looked at!

Because God allows badness does not make him the cause of it!

Edited by robin - 28 June 2008 at 9:54am

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mariyah

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Posted: 29 June 2008 at 1:45pm

Adam did not disobey God. His greatest sin was he FORGOT. Looking at his beautiful wife Eve, he forgot God's command.

Robin, this quotation from the Bible give a depiction of a God is so Wrathful, so Revengeful So unMerciful, So Cruel.

I cannot swallow that as I believe in God who is AR-RAHMAN -MOST COMPASSIONATE, AR-RAHEEM- MOST MERCIFUL, AL-GHAFUR-,MOST FORGIVING AND AT-TAWWAB - ACCEPTER OF REPENTENCE

I agree with you sister Nur!

Edited by mariyah - 03 July 2008 at 5:23pm

"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.

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Israfil

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Posted: 29 June 2008 at 9:55pm

Robin, you said:

God tried to stop him from doing bad.

If God warned Adam how did God try to stop Adam? By God trying to stop adam and Adam succeeded doesn't that make God impotent in will? Also, if God successfully stopped Adam wouldn't that violate man's freewill? Questions Questions....

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robin

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Posted: 30 June 2008 at 12:59am

Originally posted by Israfil

Robin, you said:

God tried to stop him from doing bad.

Adam should of obyed God as his creator, this he should not of gone against.

The warning God gave Adam was his help to Adam, as you say Adam had free will, which he abused in that he ignored God and paid the price!

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Topic: Jesus Christ was and is a Jehovah’s Witne
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Author	Message
Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1031	Posted: 28 June 2008 at 2:19am
	*Originally posted by robin* Adam did not submit to God but rebelled by disobeying him and eating the fruit Jehovah told him not to:- Thus he dies for his badness! Adam did not disobey God. His greatest sin was he FORGOT. Looking at his beautiful wife Eve, he forgot God's command. *Originally posted by robin* And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. ¹⁸ And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. ¹⁹ In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” Robin, this quotation from the Bible give a depiction of a God is so Wrathful, so Revengeful So unMerciful, So Cruel. I cannot swallow that as I believe in God who is AR-RAHMAN -MOST COMPASSIONATE, AR-RAHEEM- MOST MERCIFUL, AL-GHAFUR-,MOST FORGIVING AND AT-TAWWAB - ACCEPTER OF REPENTENCE. When Adam and Eve realized that they have disobeyed God by eating the fruit they called: "They said: 'Our Lord we have wronged ourselves souls. If You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers' " (Quran 7:23) And God accepts their plea: ".. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went Astray. Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness, and gave him guidance." (Quran 20:121-122) Edited by Nur_Ilahi - 28 June 2008 at 2:21am
	Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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myahya Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 222	Posted: 28 June 2008 at 6:09am
	Robin :“Adam did not submit to God but rebelled by disobeying him and eating the fruit Jehovah told him not to” This was not a so called rebel or disobedience. When Allah swt commanded Adam and his wife to avoid the tree, they actually obeyed (accepted it) without a doubt. After that Satan caused them to be out of the state they were in. Quran (2:36) But Satan caused them to deflect from the state in which they were; and we said: Fall down, some of you are the enemies of others. There shall be for you on earth a habitation and provision till a time. However, this can not be categorized as committing a sin because at that time there was yet no religion according to which you can define a sin. A sin can only be defined associated with the religion which is revealed to human (on the earth) to be guided. My evidence to this is the verse after the above verse in Quran which shows the start point of religion revelation for human being after coming on earth: Quran (2:38) We said," Get down from it, all together! Yet, should any guidance come to you from Me, those who follow My guidance shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve. On the other hand, falling down to earth was not really because of Adam and Ave eating from the tree. Before that Allah swt had told the angels about it in earlier verses: Quran (2:30) So when your Lord told the angels:" I am placing an overlord on earth", they said:" Will You place someone there who will corrupt it and shed blood, while we hymn Your praise and sanctify You?" He said:" I know something you do not know. Therefore, there is no original sin Edited by myahya - 28 June 2008 at 6:12am
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Angel Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6626	Posted: 28 June 2008 at 6:37am
	*Originally posted by robin* 2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not? IN HEAVEN JESUS IS A LESSER GOD. so in a way He is still a God, just not the calibre of the Creator. This point of yours makes it that there is 2 Gods. 3. Did Jesus die on the cross? NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE). On a stake upright?? And how did He stay up there on the stake. 8. Did Jesus meet any of his arch enemies after getting up (rising)? EXPLAINE PLEASE I think the poster means, that did Jesus meet any of his enemies in heaven after rising up to heaven. 10. When will he come back and what he wil do HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS Jesus returned in 1914 ??? so the second coming has come and gone?? Edited by Angel - 28 June 2008 at 6:38am
	[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 28 June 2008 at 9:38am
	*Originally posted by Angel* *Originally posted by robin* 2. Is Jesus or the holy spirit a god? What about holy spirit, god or not? IN HEAVEN JESUS IS A LESSER GOD. so in a way He is still a God, just not the calibre of the Creator. This point of yours makes it that there is 2 Gods. NO! THE WORD GOD IN THE BIBLE CAN BE GENERIC IN SENCE REFFERING TO A POWERFUL SPIRIT BEING OR PERSON EXAMPLE MOSES:- Exodus 4:16 "And he* must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God* to him." Aaron; Moses; *N.W.T. (ftn) "As God.” Heb., le´·lo·him', pl.; Gr., the·on'; Lat., De'um." Exodus 7:1 "Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: "See, *I have made you God to Pharaoh, and Aaron** your own brother will become your prophet. N.W.T. "(ftn.) “God.” Heb., ´elo·him';* Gr., the·on'; Latin, De'um." N.I.V. Study Bible. Comment on Ex 7:1 (and Ex 4:16). *As God transmits his word through his prophets to his people, so Moses will transmit God's message through Aaron to pharaoh. The prophet's task was to speak God's word on God's behalf. He was God's "mouth" (4:15-16)." 3. Did Jesus die on the cross? NO, ON A "STAKE" (UPRIGHT POLE). On a stake upright?? And how did He stay up there on the stake. NAILS AND A BLOCK UNDER HIS FEET 8. Did Jesus meet any of his arch enemies after getting up (rising)? EXPLAINE PLEASE I think the poster means, that did Jesus meet any of his enemies in heaven after rising up to heaven. YES; HE OUSTED SATAN AND HIS DEOMNS FROM THERE; SEE REVELATION 12:7-9 10. When will he come back and what he wil do HE RETURNED IN 1914 AS THE KING OF GOD'S HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHICH WILL SOON TAKE CONTROL OF THIS EARTH AND DESTROY SATAN'S SYSTEM OF THINGS Jesus returned in 1914 ??? so the second coming has come and gone?? AND IS ONGOING Edited by robin - 28 June 2008 at 9:39am
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robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 28 June 2008 at 9:53am
	*Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi* *Originally posted by robin* Adam did not submit to God but rebelled by disobeying him and eating the fruit Jehovah told him not to:- Thus he dies for his badness! Adam did not disobey God. His greatest sin was he FORGOT. Looking at his beautiful wife Eve, he forgot God's command. *Originally posted by robin* And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. ¹⁸ And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. ¹⁹ In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” Robin, this quotation from the Bible give a depiction of a God is so Wrathful, so Revengeful So unMerciful, So Cruel. I cannot swallow that as I believe in God who is AR-RAHMAN -MOST COMPASSIONATE, AR-RAHEEM- MOST MERCIFUL, AL-GHAFUR-,MOST FORGIVING AND AT-TAWWAB - ACCEPTER OF REPENTENCE. When Adam and Eve realized that they have disobeyed God by eating the fruit they called: "They said: 'Our Lord we have wronged ourselves souls. If You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be of the losers' " (Quran 7:23) And God accepts their plea: ".. Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went Astray. Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness, and gave him guidance." (Quran 20:121-122) Allah told Adam that if HE eats the fruit from a certain tree he would die, so it was poison for him. It was a warning, not to do things that would kill him (Adam), how can that be bad or wrong, would you not do it for you own child? Adam did not listion so suffered form his OWN actions as God said he would, how can that be wrong? God tried to stop him from doing bad, Adam did not listion to God, so how is God wrong when he tried to stop Adam doing things that would hurt himself? If youer own child did things that you told him would bring pain, as you did not want your child to suffer, but he or she ignored what you said and did bad things behind your back how would you be wrong if you had done all in your power to stop it but, they took no note? Your reasoning need to be looked at! Because God allows badness does not make him the cause of it! Edited by robin - 28 June 2008 at 9:54am
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mariyah Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1283	Posted: 29 June 2008 at 1:45pm
	Adam did not disobey God. His greatest sin was he FORGOT. Looking at his beautiful wife Eve, he forgot God's command. *Originally posted by robin* And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. ¹⁸ And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. ¹⁹ In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” Robin, this quotation from the Bible give a depiction of a God is so Wrathful, so Revengeful So unMerciful, So Cruel. I cannot swallow that as I believe in God who is AR-RAHMAN -MOST COMPASSIONATE, AR-RAHEEM- MOST MERCIFUL, AL-GHAFUR-,MOST FORGIVING AND AT-TAWWAB - ACCEPTER OF REPENTENCE I agree with you sister Nur! Edited by mariyah - 03 July 2008 at 5:23pm
	"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.
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Israfil Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3984	Posted: 29 June 2008 at 9:55pm
	Robin, you said: God tried to stop him from doing bad. If God warned Adam how did God try to stop Adam? By God trying to stop adam and Adam succeeded doesn't that make God impotent in will? Also, if God successfully stopped Adam wouldn't that violate man's freewill? Questions Questions....
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robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 30 June 2008 at 12:59am
	*Originally posted by Israfil* Robin, you said: God tried to stop him from doing bad. If God warned Adam how did God try to stop Adam? By God trying to stop adam and Adam succeeded doesn't that make God impotent in will? Also, if God successfully stopped Adam wouldn't that violate man's freewill? Questions Questions.... Adam should of obyed God as his creator, this he should not of gone against. The warning God gave Adam was his help to Adam, as you say Adam had free will, which he abused in that he ignored God and paid the price!
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