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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2008 at 9:09am
round and round it goes... Cool
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2008 at 9:56am
 
 
 I have noticed some interesting things. I knew a few Jehovas Witnesses. I noticed somethings good in them. But lately I have understood some very weak points too. I had praised the JW's in front of a friend of mine who had much more actual experience of the JW's. I had praised them but he stopped me and said that they are very dangerous (misled) sect or he said something to the effect that they were not really good at all.
 
 Now I am learning from robin if robin is at all a JW. I have seen few JW's. They do too much research into the bible OT and NT. They have bible pages marked with cross references so much that nearly every page and every line is marked.
 
 I found them peaceful and very hard working organised people. But the problem now at hand is: There is a name of God. Surely it must be in different languages. In English it may be called God. In Hindi Parmatama. In Persian KHuda. In Arabic it is called Allah. So what difference does it make if He is called by different names in different languages? The God is the same One God, the creator of the heavens and earth.
 
 But the whole building or tower that is built by the JW's is resting on the name of God as Jehova as if it cannot be anything else. That is their absolute weakness, I mean a very hollow base. They have revolved the whole religion around one word "Jehova" and built the whole theory of their religion on that. That is not fair. There are many other spiritual things to be considered.
 
 Perhaps they think that one word Jehova will do miracles. That they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. At this stage, robin is busy making a vocabulary of words in new and old araimic. What is the use of teaching us the deep meaning of things (words) such as "begotten" and "Worship" etc.

Perhaps they think that Jesus is not God and it may be some diversion / achievment for them. But in the next breath robin said that Jesus was a smaller (lesser) God. The JW's have all the ills of the general christians such as Jesus dying on the cross, then calling the instrument of death as a stake (not cross) then believing that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. Then saying that he came back to life after death. Then believing in the original sin. There is hardly anything of the R. Catholics or protestants that the Jehova's Witnesses do not possess. Yet they are hated like hell by other christians and the other sects do not admit the Jehovas Witnesses in the fold (field) of Christendom.

They are taking shelter behind that one name of God and they think that they have achieved something very superior.while it is not so. I have seen their good organisation, i.e. the Tower Society. It is a splinter group of the main christian faith.



Edited by minuteman - 04 July 2008 at 10:02am
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2008 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by minuteman

 
 
 I have noticed some interesting things. I knew a few Jehovas Witnesses. I noticed somethings good in them. But lately I have understood some very weak points too. I had praised the JW's in front of a friend of mine who had much more actual experience of the JW's. I had praised them but he stopped me and said that they are very dangerous (misled) sect or he said something to the effect that they were not really good at all.
 
 Now I am learning from robin if robin is at all a JW. I have seen few JW's. They do too much research into the bible OT and NT. They have bible pages marked with cross references so much that nearly every page and every line is marked.
 
 I found them peaceful and very hard working organised people. But the problem now at hand is: There is a name of God. Surely it must be in different languages. In English it may be called God. In Hindi Parmatama. In Persian KHuda. In Arabic it is called Allah. So what difference does it make if He is called by different names in different languages? The God is the same One God, the creator of the heavens and earth.
 
 But the whole building or tower that is built by the JW's is resting on the name of God as Jehova as if it cannot be anything else. That is their absolute weakness, I mean a very hollow base. They have revolved the whole religion around one word "Jehova" and built the whole theory of their religion on that. That is not fair. There are many other spiritual things to be considered.
 
 Perhaps they think that one word Jehova will do miracles. That they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. At this stage, robin is busy making a vocabulary of words in new and old araimic. What is the use of teaching us the deep meaning of things (words) such as "begotten" and "Worship" etc.

Perhaps they think that Jesus is not God and it may be some diversion / achievment for them. But in the next breath robin said that Jesus was a smaller (lesser) God. The JW's have all the ills of the general christians such as Jesus dying on the cross, then calling the instrument of death as a stake (not cross) then believing that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. Then saying that he came back to life after death. Then believing in the original sin. There is hardly anything of the R. Catholics or protestants that the Jehova's Witnesses do not possess. Yet they are hated like hell by other christians and the other sects do not admit the Jehovas Witnesses in the fold (field) of Christendom.

They are taking shelter behind that one name of God and they think that they have achieved something very superior.while it is not so. I have seen their good organisation, i.e. the Tower Society. It is a splinter group of the main christian faith.

 
Yes and it is the safest place to be:-
 
Ezekiel 36:23
And I shall certainly sanctify my great name, which was being profaned among the nations, which YOU profaned in the midst of them; and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘when I am sanctified among YOU before their eyes.
 
The nations are being put on notice by Jehovah God that he is coming in Judgement very soon! 


Edited by robin - 04 July 2008 at 12:44pm
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2008 at 9:25am
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by mariyah

 
Thank you Andalus. The section of Christianity that Robin states he/she belongs to only recognizes one feast, that of Nisan 4, where all of them gather in congregation to "memorialize" the supposed death of Jesus. It is at this ceremony that they pass bread and wine to the congregation, but only those who are of the 144,000 people that will be the only ones to go to heaven can eat of this bread and wine. Doesn't that follow a ritual form  of worship and is not that a prescribed ceremony? How does that differ? 
 
1
IT IS NISAN 14TH.
 
2
The Prophet Jesus commanded it to be done, so if one does not do it one does not except him as a prophet or messenger of God:-
 
Luke 22:19-20
Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: "This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.
 
thus is it not wrong to do as ALLAh commanded it to be done via his Prophet!
[/QUOTE]
 
Your convoluted explanation is really beyond me when I realize that you are unable to provide a single, solid rational case for your beliefs, inluding why my belief's are wrong.
 
Robin: You were instruced by your prophet by Allah to commit idolatry through act A, and this is what idolatry is (her definition placed here).
 
Mariyah: Well you beliefs have an "act A" that also constitutes a form of worship which is in your defintiion of idolatry.
 
Robin: But Jesus commended this, so it is ok.
 
 
Mariyah caught Robin in the fallacy of special pleading. Robin's weak definition of idolatry (which I have clearly shown to be weak through exmaples I have provided in the particualr contribution) is too general and not specific enough.
 
 
Robin attempts to deflect this by telling us all that Jesus commanded it.
 
The problem is that I could be an athiest or a Jew, and state, "proove that Jesus was a prophet or had authority to make such a command". The issue that Robin has tried to sneak in here is not about any definition of idolatry, but it is a strawman fallacy, because now she is saying that if you are given certain commands by an establishhed authority, then you can commit some form of idolatry according to her given definition and you are ok, thus circumventing her abuse of a special pleading fallacy caught by Mariyah (Robin has traded a case of special pleading for a sneaky strawman fallacy). Robin, you are trying to be "slick", which speaks volumes about your intellectual honesty. Instead of just drinking your sect's "coolaid", and taking their bait hook, line, and sinker, why not adhere to intellectual honesty and learn something from these discussions. If you have to adhere, consistantly, to rhetorical fallacies as a way to prove you point, then either you belief system has flaws, or you are not as educated in your belief system as you would like to be. 
Allahu 'alim 


Edited by Andalus - 05 July 2008 at 9:31am
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2008 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by mariyah

 
Thank you Andalus. The section of Christianity that Robin states he/she belongs to only recognizes one feast, that of Nisan 4, where all of them gather in congregation to "memorialize" the supposed death of Jesus. It is at this ceremony that they pass bread and wine to the congregation, but only those who are of the 144,000 people that will be the only ones to go to heaven can eat of this bread and wine. Doesn't that follow a ritual form  of worship and is not that a prescribed ceremony? How does that differ? 
 
1
IT IS NISAN 14TH.
 
2
The Prophet Jesus commanded it to be done, so if one does not do it one does not except him as a prophet or messenger of God:-
 
Luke 22:19-20
Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: "This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.
 
thus is it not wrong to do as ALLAh commanded it to be done via his Prophet!
 
Your convoluted explanation is really beyond me when I realize that you are unable to provide a single, solid rational case for your beliefs, inluding why my belief's are wrong.
 
Robin: You were instruced by your prophet by Allah to commit idolatry through act A, and this is what idolatry is (her definition placed here).
 
Mariyah: Well you beliefs have an "act A" that also constitutes a form of worship which is in your defintiion of idolatry.
 
Robin: But Jesus commended this, so it is ok.
 
 
Mariyah caught Robin in the fallacy of special pleading. Robin's weak definition of idolatry (which I have clearly shown to be weak through exmaples I have provided in the particualr contribution) is too general and not specific enough.
 
 
Robin attempts to deflect this by telling us all that Jesus commanded it.
 
The problem is that I could be an athiest or a Jew, and state, "proove that Jesus was a prophet or had authority to make such a command". The issue that Robin has tried to sneak in here is not about any definition of idolatry, but it is a strawman fallacy, because now she is saying that if you are given certain commands by an establishhed authority, then you can commit some form of idolatry according to her given definition and you are ok, thus circumventing her abuse of a special pleading fallacy caught by Mariyah (Robin has traded a case of special pleading for a sneaky strawman fallacy). Robin, you are trying to be "slick", which speaks volumes about your intellectual honesty. Instead of just drinking your sect's "coolaid", and taking their bait hook, line, and sinker, why not adhere to intellectual honesty and learn something from these discussions. If you have to adhere, consistantly, to rhetorical fallacies as a way to prove you point, then either you belief system has flaws, or you are not as educated in your belief system as you would like to be. 
Allahu 'alim 
[/QUOTE]
 
 
You claim Jesus as your prophet then do not do as he commands in the power of Allah and by the will of Allah:-
 
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
 
Daniel 7:14
And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.
 
Matthew 11:27
All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son but the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father but the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.
 
Ephesians 1:21
far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.
 
Philippians 2:9
For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name,
 

When Jesus gave the command to celebrate the Lord's Evening Meal (as above) and those who claim to be his followers do not do it, than they do not do the will of Allah they stand against Allah because as Jesus said himself, he has been given "all authority" by Allah, so his command do something, it must to be done it is the will of Allah, thus cannot be idolatry!

 
Then you deny your own prophet!  
 
You need to understand the Bible better as you make your points with no support from scripture, thus they are not of much worth!
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2008 at 11:32pm
 
 robin, your post:
Daniel 7:14
And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.
 
 
About whom daniel is speaking? It is not about Jesus. There is no name of Jesus in it. You cannot attach every good thing to Jesus without proof.
 
 robin please tell me when was Jesus given any rulership, dignity and kingdom? We do  not see any sign of it in the bible NT. All we see is that he had no place to rest. He said that a prophet is never respected in his own area. That means he was considering himself as a prophet only and people believed him as a prophet of God.
 
 He never proclaimed himself as a god and did not preach a single day that he should be worshipped or that he was a small god. He did not have any government or office. Will you admit it please?
 
 
  Ephesians 1:21
far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come. 
 
 Unless it is something secret, or supposed, or wishful thinking or metaphorical, we do not see any government or authority had been given to Jesus..... These are perhaps the words of Saul of Tarsus (an enemy of Jesus). WE could not take anything less than from Jesus himself....
 
 
Philippians 2:9
For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name,
 
 The remark is same as above. You suppose or imagine that Jesus was exalted to a very superior position. Well and good. But please remain in some limits with your flying thoughts.
 


Edited by minuteman - 06 July 2008 at 11:34pm
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2008 at 10:00am

robin, your post:

Daniel 7:14

And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

 

 

About whom daniel is speaking? It is not about Jesus. There is no name of Jesus in it. You cannot attach every good thing to Jesus without proof.

 

 robin please tell me when was Jesus given any rulership, dignity and kingdom? We do  not see any sign of it in the bible NT. All we see is that he had no place to rest. He said that a prophet is never respected in his own area. That means he was considering himself as a prophet only and people believed him as a prophet of God.

 

 He never proclaimed himself as a god and did not preach a single day that he should be worshipped or that he was a small god. He did not have any government or office. Will you admit it please?

 

THE PROPHETIC BOOK OF DANIEL ITSELF SHOWS THAT ONE TO BE THE “SON OF MAN” TO WHOM ARE GIVEN “RULERSHIP AND DIGNITY AND KINGDOM, THAT THE PEOPLES, NATIONAL GROUPS AND LANGUAGES SHOULD ALL SERVE EVEN HIM.” (DAN 7:13, 14) JESUS’ OWN PROPHECY, IN WHICH THE REFERENCE TO “THE APPOINTED TIMES OF THE NATIONS” OCCURS, POINTS DEFINITELY TOWARD CHRIST JESUS’ EXERCISE OF SUCH WORLD DOMINATION AS GOD’S CHOSEN KING, THE HEIR OF THE DAVIDIC DYNASTY. (MTT 24:30, 31; 25:31-34; LUK 21:27-31, 36) THUS, THE SYMBOLIC STUMP, REPRESENTING GOD’S RETENTION OF THE SOVEREIGN RIGHT TO EXERCISE WORLD DOMINATION IN “THE KINGDOM OF MANKIND,” WAS DUE TO SPROUT AGAIN IN HIS SON’S KINGDOM.—PS 89:27, 35-37.

 

FOLLOWING THE OVERTHROW OF THE LAST KING TO SIT ON “JEHOVAH’S THRONE” IN JERUSALEM (1CHON 29:23), THE PROPHET DANIEL WAS GIVEN A VISION DESCRIBING THE FUTURE APPOINTMENT OF GOD’S OWN SON TO SERVE AS KING. JEHOVAH’S POSITION STANDS OUT CLEARLY WHEN HE, AS THE ANCIENT OF DAYS, GRANTS RULERSHIP TO HIS SON. THE ACCOUNT STATES: “I KEPT ON BEHOLDING IN THE VISIONS OF THE NIGHT, AND, SEE THERE! WITH THE CLOUDS OF THE HEAVENS SOMEONE LIKE A SON OF MAN HAPPENED TO BE COMING; AND TO THE ANCIENT OF DAYS HE GAINED ACCESS, AND THEY BROUGHT HIM UP CLOSE EVEN BEFORE THAT ONE. AND TO HIM THERE WERE GIVEN RULERSHIP AND DIGNITY AND KINGDOM, THAT THE PEOPLES, NATIONAL GROUPS AND LANGUAGES SHOULD ALL SERVE EVEN HIM. HIS RULERSHIP IS AN INDEFINITELY LASTING RULERSHIP THAT WILL NOT PASS AWAY, AND HIS KINGDOM ONE THAT WILL NOT BE BROUGHT TO RUIN.” (DAN 7:13, 14) A COMPARISON OF THIS TEXT WITH MATTHEW 26:63, 64 LEAVES NO DOUBT THAT THE “SON OF MAN” IN DANIEL’S VISION IS JESUS CHRIST. HE GAINS ACCESS TO JEHOVAH’S PRESENCE AND IS GIVEN RULERSHIP.—COMPARE PS 2:8, 9; MTT 28:18.

FINALLY JESUS WAS PUT UNDER OATH BY THE HIGH PRIEST AND QUESTIONED AS TO WHETHER HE WAS THE CHRIST THE SON OF GOD. WHEN JESUS ANSWERED IN THE AFFIRMATIVE AND ALLUDED TO THE PROPHECY AT DANIEL 7:13, THE HIGH PRIEST RIPPED HIS GARMENTS AND CALLED UPON THE COURT TO FIND JESUS GUILTY OF BLASPHEMY.

 

 

 

  Ephesians 1:21

far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come. 

 

 Unless it is something secret, or supposed, or wishful thinking or metaphorical, we do not see any government or authority had been given to Jesus..... These are perhaps the words of Saul of Tarsus (an enemy of Jesus). WE could not take anything less than from Jesus himself....

 

HE IS ABOVE THEM BUT THEY DO NOT ACCKNOLADGE IT AND WILL NOT UNTIL:-

 

2 THESSALONIANS 1:76-10

BUT, TO YOU WHO SUFFER TRIBULATION, RELIEF ALONG WITH US AT THE REVELATION OF THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS POWERFUL ANGELS 8 IN A FLAMING FIRE, AS HE BRINGS VENGEANCE UPON THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOD AND THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT OUR LORD JESUS. 9 THESE VERY ONES WILL UNDERGO THE JUDICIAL PUNISHMENT OF EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM BEFORE THE LORD AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS STRENGTH, 10 AT THE TIME HE COMES TO BE GLORIFIED IN CONNECTION WITH HIS HOLY ONES AND TO BE REGARDED IN THAT DAY WITH WONDER IN CONNECTION WITH ALL THOSE WHO EXERCISED FAITH, BECAUSE THE WITNESS WE GAVE MET WITH FAITH AMONG YOU.

 

 

Philippians 2:9

For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name,

 

 The remark is same as above. You suppose or imagine that Jesus was exalted to a very superior position. Well and good. But please remain in some limits with your flying thoughts.

 

AS IT SAYS IN PSALM 2:-

PSALM 2:2-9

THE KINGS OF EARTH TAKE THEIR STAND AND HIGH OFFICIALS THEMSELVES HAVE MASSED TOGETHER AS ONE AGAINST JEHOVAH AND AGAINST HIS ANOINTED ONE,  3 [SAYING:] “LET US TEAR THEIR BANDS APART AND CAST THEIR CORDS AWAY FROM US!”  4 THE VERY ONE SITTING IN THE HEAVENS WILL LAUGH; JEHOVAH HIMSELF WILL HOLD THEM IN DERISION.  5 AT THAT TIME HE WILL SPEAK TO THEM IN HIS ANGER AND IN HIS HOT DISPLEASURE HE WILL DISTURB THEM,  6 [SAYING:] “I, EVEN I, HAVE INSTALLED MY KING UPON ZION, MY HOLY MOUNTAIN.”  7 LET ME REFER TO THE DECREE OF JEHOVAH; HE HAS SAID TO ME: “YOU ARE MY SON; I, TODAY, I HAVE BECOME YOUR FATHER.  8 ASK OF ME, THAT I MAY GIVE NATIONS AS YOUR INHERITANCE AND THE ENDS OF THE EARTH AS YOUR OWN POSSESSION.  9 YOU WILL BREAK THEM WITH AN IRON SCEPTER, AS THOUGH A POTTER’S VESSEL YOU WILL DASH THEM TO PIECES.”

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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2008 at 1:30am
 
 robin, please be brief. Tell me, did Jesus have any authority or kingdom or rulership or commanded any place? Do not go back to daniel etc. You have the biography of Jesus in the four gospels. Tell me did Jesus ever was a ruler or a king? Did he have authority at all while he was here on earth??
 
 Be brief please. Thanks.
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