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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: WHY CHRISTIANS REJECT THE KAABA. Post Reply Post New Topic
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Moses
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Quote Moses Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2009 at 8:59am

Originally posted by Meditations

]

It needs to use other words of God, it needs guidance sent by Prophets, it needs us to use our minds when doing this all

 

You tell what we need for understanding words of God?!! You have not ability enough to know this because of limitation in information. God can tell us how we find the meaning of his words in our heart and then in our mind because he has not limitation in the information.

 

 

 

]In Islam and Christianity and other religions, you have leaders that they will tell you what the words of God mean and they put you in a frame which they believe this will be useful for people.

 

Not necessarily, no
this is why we have no 'holy' religion people in Islam, we have scholars, whose opinions can be challenged, proving to be right / wrong

Yes you have. Most of them are “holy”, the prophet is holy for you, his family, his friends and everybody who they use for inspiration their opinions in people`s brain, they must be holy , if not, the leaders can`t use them , can`t use their stories , can`t use hadithes, and totally they must be worship able for people to be used as rulers for them.

Your holy religion people are not alive, and this is better for current leaders, because they can`t talk any more to people about themselves. current religion leaders(most of them at least), in every religion ( not only Islam) are the arch of your religion villages, For this reason Quran says:

 

And as such we have placed in every village its arch transgressors to scheme there. But they scheme only against themselves, though they do not sense it.

 

وَكَذَلِكَ جَعَلْنَا فِي كُلِّ قَرْيَةٍ أَكَابِرَ مُجْرِمِيهَا لِيَمْكُرُواْ فِيهَا وَمَا يَمْكُرُونَ إِلاَّ بِأَنفُسِهِمْ وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ ﴿۱۲۳

 

 

 

 

 

That would be the case if choosing to obey Mr.X is different from obeying God

But if God instructed us to obey those with knowledge, then by obeying them, we're obeying God, right ?

 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلاً {59}


[Yusufali 4:59] O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

 

Exactly! We have Quran, and then the first command is follow that means Allah. And the second is follow his messenger who is specified for this reason and he has chosen to tell us the words of God, and if we can`t find the messenger, we need ask somebody who is helping us to find about words of Allah. As you see all of these ways are coming to Allah, not any created human.

 All of them are helping us to come back toward words of God, because only his words are eternal and “all right” up to the end, all of other things , words, books, opinions and anything which is created is temporary and all of these are destroying always.

 

Now you tell me, which of religion made laws is in words of Allah? Someone is and some other is not. When they are fighting to each other about how you should pray five times a day? When they are arguing about how you should do fasting in Ramadan, when they are arguing about hijab, and many other religion laws, Are they arguing about words of God? Or about their findings from their friends and the friends of their friends, who they are appropriate to tell us that the prophet did it like this or like that!!!!!! Are they charged with authority?!! Are they heirs of God?!!!!!! But God says:

 

Then we made you heirs in the land after them, to see how ye would behave!  

 

ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ خَلاَئِفَ فِي الأَرْضِ مِن بَعْدِهِم لِنَنظُرَ كَيْفَ تَعْمَلُونَ ﴿۱۴

 

Is this about your religion leaders? Or about all of human being? He will not give me something to know about his words? He will not give it to me myself?!! And you tell me that I need to ask that from someone who does not even talk on base of words of God?! And pass me to the other human just like me?!!

No! I will not admit it, I am the child of promises and I have the best promises of my God. And you have also; only find them in your book:

 

 

O ye who believe! If ye fear Allah, he will grant you a criterion (to judge between right and wrong), remove from you (all) evil (that may afflict) you, and forgive you: for Allah is the lord of grace unbounded.

 

يِا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إَن تَتَّقُواْ اللّهَ يَجْعَل لَّكُمْ فُرْقَانًا وَيُكَفِّرْ عَنكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ وَاللّهُ ذُو الْفَضْلِ الْعَظِيمِ ﴿۲۹

 

 

Originally posted by Moses

 

This is a human made theory which they call that Islam .for this reason, you can see that there is many different Islams in world (shiee, suni,and …) as well as different Christianities, and other groups in religions because they believe in something more than words of God.

 

And there will always be, not only because of believing in things other than words of God, but because of trying to make it do what they wish, not what it means

but then what should be our approach toward this then ?

 

Approach by trust in God by use of his words only. Not trust in any other created (including all stories about God!)

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Moses

But God for helping us needs a completely private relationship.

 

Totally disagree, I don't worship a God that needs anything.

 

Worship him, because he don`t need it for himself(he don`t need nothing for himself) he need that for me and you as his love.

 

Originally posted by Moses

This included leadership of God by his own Spirit, although this will be done sometimes by using of other people.

 

Prophets you mean

 

 

Originally posted by Moses

But God show us the people who will help us himself, among his believers or sometimes disbelievers and sometimes other things that he uses them himself

 

Then the relationship is not so private, is it ? if it's through other creatures
God shows signs in so many ways and forms


[Pickthal 41:53] We shall show them Our portents on the horizons and within themselves until it will be manifest unto them that it is the Truth. Doth not thy Lord suffice, since He is Witness over all things?

.

There is a specific relationship between God and each of his friends. And there is another relation between believers and God.

The first should be completely private(100%), of course, if you need it!

 

Originally posted by Moses

You know logically that God is right, and then if words of God say something that you cannot logically understand, and then you will logically discover that these are not words of God, because you decided previously about “what God really is”! And God, as you know him logically, will not say these things.

Then please come back and look at yourself. With a brain which God created for you, you are making decision about words of God and sometimes more, about the reality of God!

 

Not true, I don't decide or judge what God really is, I decide through science if words are from God or not, which is obligation I have to do to verify the message
once verification is made, then I believe with what's in the message and try to understand it within the available knowledge
Which increases with time, and so our knowledge about God, through what God revealed to us

 

Science is for created because it is created by human brain and mind. Science supposes to be useful for knowing created things. Science is changing because of its reality. Then if you use science for knowing the source of words of God, and if they are from God or not, you will be lose in your mind not going toward the truth.

Are you sure that this science is increases? I think it`s turning around itself!! Because the change of science is day to day, even in religion sciences!

If you want God help you to the holy land, take off your shoes !



......................

Originally posted by Moses

About spiritual things, God will give us every good thing which he wants for us. It’s not me that can understand his words, its God himself who can open my eyes to the truth.

 

True, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't seek the truth and sit and wait for God to open my eyes to it, right ?

Whoever tries to get close to God, get gets him closer, it's your action that is required

 

Seek the truth with your shoes?!!! Forget about yourself , your knowledge and your opinions , then you can go completely empty. And only after he find you “empty” he will fill you by himself. Believe in his promises.

 

 

Originally posted by Moses

اللّهُ وَلِيُّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ يُخْرِجُهُم مِّنَ الظُّلُمَاتِ إِلَى النُّوُرِ

Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out from darkness into the light. (2-257)

If you think about the verse, it talks about those who believe, so after you believe, God brings you from the darkness to the light
there's an action required on your side


if you choose to not believe, then the remaining of the verse applies to you

[Shakir 2:257] Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Shaitans who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.

 

 

Yes, at first you trust on him only (believe) and then, he will do it for you as he will.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Moses

The language of Jesus (son of Mary) was Aramaic, which is an ancient Semitic language from which Hebrew and Arabic scripts were derived.

So, now a question arises,
does tree mean cross in Aramaic as well ?
and does it in Greek which the english translation came from
it leaves us with many possibilities of what Jesus ( PBUH ) said
So which one do we know for sure that he said ? what reference do we have ?

Regards

In old testament, and new testament we have another equal words for that also.


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Quote Moses Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2009 at 9:10am

Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah

Originally posted by Moses

Quran or Bible never asks us to think worldly, human wisdom,
Salams,Moses.The Qur'an is a book of wisdom,In it Allah commands to use logic from worldly,human wisdom(same thing) example:Drinking and Gambling:2:219)AL-Qur'an- They ask you about drinking and gambling.Tell them:"There is great sin in both,although they may have some benefit for men;but their sin is greater than their benefit."They ask you what they should spend;tell them:"What is beyond your needs." Thus,Allah makes His revelations clear to you,so that you may reflect upon this world and the hereafter. MashAllah!Short and simple.no need for long post to not prove anything.

سلام علیکم

Quran is not against wisdom. But the wisdom in Quran is not human wisdom that is Gods wisdom. Because the words have not come from human they are from Allah, and Allah does not use human wisdom. But he reveals and made that easy to be understood able for human. Also Bible and every words of God which we have in this world, had been revealed to the most easy face to be understood.

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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2009 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by Moses

Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah

Originally posted by Moses

Quran or Bible never asks us to think worldly, human wisdom,
Salams,Moses.The Qur'an is a book of wisdom,In it Allah commands to use logic from worldly,human wisdom(same thing) example:Drinking and Gambling:2:219)AL-Qur'an- They ask you about drinking and gambling.Tell them:"There is great sin in both,although they may have some benefit for men;but their sin is greater than their benefit."They ask you what they should spend;tell them:"What is beyond your needs." Thus,Allah makes His revelations clear to you,so that you may reflect upon this world and the hereafter. MashAllah!Short and simple.no need for long post to not prove anything.

سلام علیکم

Quran is not against wisdom. But the wisdom in Quran is not human wisdom that is Gods wisdom. Because the words have not come from human they are from Allah, and Allah does not use human wisdom. But he reveals and made that easy to be understood able for human. Also Bible and every words of God which we have in this world, had been revealed to the most easy face to be understood.

 
Moses,
way off the topic plus I really can't understand, you first say something really irrelevent,  then come out with some scholarly expalination of yours, and think you have achieved or helped others in understanding, yet all for nothing like in the above example, all in vain.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 05 October 2009 at 4:26pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Moses Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2009 at 7:40am

Disappointed! Finding about the reality of law about Kaabea was not too complex to understand.

 Law is for everybody who does not believe in Jesus Christ as the Lord and God. They need laws because they don`t love God by all their heart, and they have not the power of Holy Spirit in themselves. Then God has to find a way for them to be good citizen in this world for each other.

And he sent law for each nation as their needs. Did you remember what Jesus told us about the laws of Moses? Everybody who does not teach them is not with Jesus. What will you do if the laws of Quran are laws for another nation?!

They can`t see, if they could, they could see their holy book`s words. God told them at the first verses of Quran to believe in whatever revealed before Muhammad, and they put that aside by making accuses. God told them that offspring’s of Israel are the first chosen nation of God, and they hate of them. God told them not worship anything below God, and they worship human (Muhammad and ....) God told them do not make followers in the unique way of God, they made more than 70 groups in Islam, and , and , and,.....what they can see is only their needs, their problems, their enemies ...., plus all of these when somebody tell them that he converted from them and does not admit their opinions and their Islam, they hate of him and put him next to their enemies!

But what about you? Are you Christians? You love your Lord with all of your heart? You are spiritual son`s of God? You have his wisdom in your heart as a gift of your father in heaven?  Then why you can`t see the difference between a direction and an idol?!!!!  Is it very difficult?!!! You are not asking the first question about the people who by mistake kiss the stone. You are asking about the words of Quran which in them you can`t find any evidence that say worship a stone! So sorry, but everybody who think in worldly things is worldly man and everybody who thinks in spiritual things is spiritual man, then It`s better to change your ways. Confess your sins in presence of God again and ask your father in heaven fill you again by his Spirit in the Holy name of Jesus Christ the only son of living God. and he definitely will give you more his spirit and his wisdom as he does always.

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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 4:18am
Originally posted by honeto


way off the topic plus I really can't understand, you first say something really irrelevent,  then come out with some scholarly expalination of yours,
Salams Hasan.You took the words out of my mouth lol,It is like he agrees and disagree No offense Moses I cant figure you out.Are you agreeing and then disagreeing?You said" But he reveals and made that easy to be understood able for human. Also Bible and every words of God which we have in this world, had been revealed to the most easy face to be understood."In the first and second sentence you are just are basicly agreeing (you show proof of human wisdom)But first you said "Originally posted by Moses

Quran or Bible never asks us to think worldly, human wisdom,

Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 08 October 2009 at 4:32am
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 4:48am
Originally posted by Moses

" Law is for everybody who does not believe in Jesus Christ as the Lord and God.<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" =Msonormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-: EN-AU" lang=EN-AU><FONT face=Calibri>And he sent law for each nation as their needs. Did you remember what Jesus told us about the laws of Moses? Everybody who does not teach them is not with Jesus.
You are doing it again in the first sentence you say one thing and the second you disagree with the first.Is this like the game jepordy when the question comes in the form of the answer????????
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Quote Moses Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 9:11am
Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah

Originally posted by honeto


way off the topic plus I really can't understand, you first say something really irrelevent,  then come out with some scholarly expalination of yours,
Salams Hasan.You took the words out of my mouth lol,It is like he agrees and disagree No offense Moses I cant figure you out.Are you agreeing and then disagreeing?You said" But he reveals and made that easy to be understood able for human. Also Bible and every words of God which we have in this world, had been revealed to the most easy face to be understood."In the first and second sentence you are just are basicly agreeing (you show proof of human wisdom)But first you said "Originally posted by Moses

Quran or Bible never asks us to think worldly, human wisdom,
 
agree and disagree. agree with Quran is based on logic of God, and disagree with Quran is based on human logic. agree with Quran is from God and based on his wisdom and came to human as simple words to understand, and disagree with human can make that simple for himself by his own logic.
men want to touch the words of God, but God will not let human to do this unless he make someone cleansed by his own Spirit(لایمسه الامطهرون ) .Then we can ask him to make us cleansed (to be born again from Spirit)instead of disappointed about understanding Quran totally and look for someone to explain that for us.
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Quote Moses Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2009 at 9:53am

Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah

Originally posted by Moses

" Law is for everybody who does not believe in Jesus Christ as the Lord and God.<P style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 10pt" =Msonormal><SPAN style="mso-ansi-: EN-AU" lang=EN-AU><FONT face=Calibri>And he sent law for each nation as their needs. Did you remember what Jesus told us about the laws of Moses? Everybody who does not teach them is not with Jesus.
You are doing it again in the first sentence you say one thing and the second you disagree with the first.Is this like the game jepordy when the question comes in the form of the answer????????

 

No not game! This is another side of a coin.

Laws are not expired and will not, because they are from God and will be useful for human up to the last day. God sent them by his messengers to justice between people for their desires. And they will be useful during the time that human is alive and has desires.

But among people, there are someone who they does not live based on their desires (although they have desires yet), but they live for God. They have law also, but the first law only. Because the first law is including all of the other laws: love your God by all of your heart, all of your mind and all of your soul. They do this by the power of the Spirit, and this is only by God`s will. Everybody can ask that and will be given. Thus, they should do much more than laws ask human to do. For example in laws you can divorce from your wife, but for people who wants live for God, this is not allowed.

These people are guided by Holy Spirit and Bible says they are spiritual offspring of God.

But they are not allowed to teaching against the other laws. Because laws are from heavenly father as well and should be teaches to people as long as they are alive.

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