IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: WHY CHRISTIANS REJECT THE KAABA.

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Originally posted by Meditations

]
It needs to use other words of God, it needs guidance sent by Prophets, it needs us to use our minds when doing this all 

You tell what we need for understanding words of God?!! You have not ability enough to know this because of limitation in information. God can tell us how we find the meaning of his words in our heart and then in our mind because he has not limitation in the information.

]In Islam and Christianity and other religions, you have leaders that they will tell you what the words of God mean and they put you in a frame which they believe this will be useful for people. 

Not necessarily, no
this is why we have no 'holy' religion people in Islam, we have scholars, whose opinions can be challenged, proving to be right / wrong

Yes you have. Most of them are “holy”, the prophet is holy for you, his family, his friends and everybody who they use for inspiration their opinions in people`s brain, they must be holy , if not, the leaders can`t use them , can`t use their stories , can`t use hadithes, and totally they must be worship able for people to be used as rulers for them.
Your holy religion people are not alive, and this is better for current leaders, because they can`t talk any more to people about themselves. current religion leaders(most of them at least), in every religion ( not only Islam) are the arch of your religion villages, For this reason Quran says:

And as such we have placed in every village its arch transgressors to scheme there. But they scheme only against themselves, though they do not sense it. 

وَكَذَلِكَ جَعَلْنَا فِي كُلِّ قَرْيَةٍ أَكَابِرَ مُجْرِمِيهَا لِيَمْكُرُواْ فِيهَا وَمَا يَمْكُرُونَ إِلاَّ بِأَنفُسِهِمْ وَمَا يَشْعُرُونَ ﴿۱۲۳﴾ 

That would be the case if choosing to obey Mr.X is different from obeying God
But if God instructed us to obey those with knowledge, then by obeying them, we're obeying God, right ? 

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلاً {59}

[Yusufali 4:59] O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

Exactly! We have Quran, and then the first command is follow that means Allah. And the second is follow his messenger who is specified for this reason and he has chosen to tell us the words of God, and if we can`t find the messenger, we need ask somebody who is helping us to find about words of Allah. As you see all of these ways are coming to Allah, not any created human.
 All of them are helping us to come back toward words of God, because only his words are eternal and “all right” up to the end, all of other things , words, books, opinions and anything which is created is temporary and all of these are destroying always.

Now you tell me, which of religion made laws is in words of Allah? Someone is and some other is not. When they are fighting to each other about how you should pray five times a day? When they are arguing about how you should do fasting in Ramadan, when they are arguing about hijab, and many other religion laws, Are they arguing about words of God? Or about their findings from their friends and the friends of their friends, who they are appropriate to tell us that the prophet did it like this or like that!!!!!! Are they charged with authority?!! Are they heirs of God?!!!!!! But God says: 

Then we made you heirs in the land after them, to see how ye would behave!  

ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ خَلاَئِفَ فِي الأَرْضِ مِن بَعْدِهِم لِنَنظُرَ كَيْفَ تَعْمَلُونَ ﴿۱۴﴾ 

Is this about your religion leaders? Or about all of human being? He will not give me something to know about his words? He will not give it to me myself?!! And you tell me that I need to ask that from someone who does not even talk on base of words of God?! And pass me to the other human just like me?!!
No! I will not admit it, I am the child of promises and I have the best promises of my God. And you have also; only find them in your book:

O ye who believe! If ye fear Allah, he will grant you a criterion (to judge between right and wrong), remove from you (all) evil (that may afflict) you, and forgive you: for Allah is the lord of grace unbounded. 

يِا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إَن تَتَّقُواْ اللّهَ يَجْعَل لَّكُمْ فُرْقَانًا وَيُكَفِّرْ عَنكُمْ سَيِّئَاتِكُمْ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ وَاللّهُ ذُو الْفَضْلِ الْعَظِيمِ ﴿۲۹﴾ 

Originally posted by Moses

This is a human made theory which they call that Islam .for this reason, you can see that there is many different Islams in world (shiee, suni,and …) as well as different Christianities, and other groups in religions because they believe in something more than words of God. 

And there will always be, not only because of believing in things other than words of God, but because of trying to make it do what they wish, not what it means

but then what should be our approach toward this then ? 

Approach by trust in God by use of his words only. Not trust in any other created (including all stories about God!)

Originally posted by Moses

But God for helping us needs a completely private relationship. 

Totally disagree, I don't worship a God that needs anything.

Worship him, because he don`t need it for himself(he don`t need nothing for himself) he need that for me and you as his love.

Originally posted by Moses

This included leadership of God by his own Spirit, although this will be done sometimes by using of other people.

Prophets you mean

Originally posted by Moses

But God show us the people who will help us himself, among his believers or sometimes disbelievers and sometimes other things that he uses them himself

Then the relationship is not so private, is it ? if it's through other creatures 
God shows signs in so many ways and forms 

[Pickthal 41:53] We shall show them Our portents on the horizons and within themselves until it will be manifest unto them that it is the Truth. Doth not thy Lord suffice, since He is Witness over all things?
.

There is a specific relationship between God and each of his friends. And there is another relation between believers and God.
The first should be completely private(100%), of course, if you need it!

Originally posted by Moses

You know logically that God is right, and then if words of God say something that you cannot logically understand, and then you will logically discover that these are not words of God, because you decided previously about “what God really is”! And God, as you know him logically, will not say these things.

Then please come back and look at yourself. With a brain which God created for you, you are making decision about words of God and sometimes more, about the reality of God! 

Not true, I don't decide or judge what God really is, I decide through science if words are from God or not, which is obligation I have to do to verify the message
once verification is made, then I believe with what's in the message and try to understand it within the available knowledge 
Which increases with time, and so our knowledge about God, through what God revealed to us 

Science is for created because it is created by human brain and mind. Science supposes to be useful for knowing created things. Science is changing because of its reality. Then if you use science for knowing the source of words of God, and if they are from God or not, you will be lose in your mind not going toward the truth.
Are you sure that this science is increases? I think it`s turning around itself!! Because the change of science is day to day, even in religion sciences! 
If you want God help you to the holy land, take off your shoes !

......................

Originally posted by Moses

About spiritual things, God will give us every good thing which he wants for us. It’s not me that can understand his words, its God himself who can open my eyes to the truth. 

True, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't seek the truth and sit and wait for God to open my eyes to it, right ?

Whoever tries to get close to God, get gets him closer, it's your action that is required

Seek the truth with your shoes?!!! Forget about yourself , your knowledge and your opinions , then you can go completely empty. And only after he find you “empty” he will fill you by himself. Believe in his promises.

Originally posted by Moses

اللّهُ وَلِيُّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ يُخْرِجُهُم مِّنَ الظُّلُمَاتِ إِلَى النُّوُرِ
Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out from darkness into the light. (2-257) 
If you think about the verse, it talks about those who believe, so after you believe, God brings you from the darkness to the light
there's an action required on your side

if you choose to not believe, then the remaining of the verse applies to you 
[Shakir 2:257] Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Shaitans who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.

Yes, at first you trust on him only (believe) and then, he will do it for you as he will.

Originally posted by Moses

The language of Jesus (son of Mary) was Aramaic, which is an ancient Semitic language from which Hebrew and Arabic scripts were derived. 
So, now a question arises, 
does tree mean cross in Aramaic as well ? 
and does it in Greek which the english translation came from 
it leaves us with many possibilities of what Jesus ( PBUH ) said
So which one do we know for sure that he said ? what reference do we have ?

Regards

In old testament, and new testament we have another equal words for that also.

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