Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: WHY CHRISTIANS REJECT THE KAABA. Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 28
Author Message
Akhe Abdullah
Male Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 November 2008
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1252
Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 13 October 2009 at 11:53am
So in saying "Laws do not expire"Exodus20:3,4)Thou Shalt have no other gods before me.(Some Christian worship Jesus as God)Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,or that is in the earth beneath,or that is in the water under the earth:(There are countless numbers of graven images of Jesus(As) on the cross.) So since Laws dont expire. They get changed, is that it?
IP IP Logged
Moses
Male 
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 02 September 2009
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 65
Quote Moses Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2009 at 2:14am

Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah

So in saying "Laws do not expire"Exodus20:3,4)Thou Shalt have no other gods before me.(Some Christian worship Jesus as God)Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above,or that is in the earth beneath,or that is in the water under the earth:(There are countless numbers of graven images of Jesus(As) on the cross.) So since Laws dont expire. They get changed, is that it?

Yes, Laws do expire never and every follower of Jesus has to teach them to the others as Jesus asked us himself, but not the face or the appearance of Laws only, but the reality of Laws as well.

The first Law is the most important as Jesus said, love your God(only one, not 3, not more , not creatures of God, not money, not wife, not offspring , not opinions, not his messengers, not his angles, not any other thing that you know, because you know only creatures that God made for serving you) by all of your heart, all of your mind and all of your soul. And then love your neighbor as love yourself. If you want to do Laws, first you must do these two at least. If you don`t , you will not do as God asked you. You can not do some of Laws and leave one of them. Because Laws are complete and all of them are for you. If you come into Quran , you will find the same Laws in another shape only. but the message is the same, when you say: (1-5)  

إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ ﴿۵         thee do we worship, and thine aid we seek. (5)

The meaning is: we adore only you, and obey only you, and ask help only from you, and this is in deep meaning as the same Law and means otherwise:  “I love you and obey you only, by all my mind, by all my soul and my heart”

And this worship (love by all your heart) is the first of the other Laws, because you see in the next chapter:

O ye people! adore your guardian-lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness; (21)

 

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ اعْبُدُواْ رَبَّكُمُ الَّذِي خَلَقَكُمْ وَالَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ ﴿۲۱

Then you as the followers of Quran believe that love God is the first and base of all other Laws. And you would better teach that love God is the most important as Quran says. Do you teach that? Do you say to each other “without real love, there will not be any obedience in doing pray ceremonies?  Or in fasting for God in Ramadan, or in washing your hands before pray? Do you teach “Love” or not? Hopefully you do.

And about worship Jesus as God, real Christians does not believe that” Jesus the son of Miriam” is God. They believe that Jesus the son of God, is Lord and is God, because he is not created, he is the Creator himself, he is the impress of God`s reality, he is the picture of invisible God. Then there is not more than God, there is only one God. And this one in reality is 3 in actions. Sometimes he says he come to protect creatures, sometimes he says he make a program for creating some things, and sometimes he says he pick up our burdens.   

For example you believe that God is one, and you believe that he told to his messenger:

       أَلَمْ نَشْرَحْ لَكَ صَدْرَكَ ﴿۱ وَوَضَعْنَا عَنكَ وِزْرَكَ ﴿۲ الَّذِي أَنقَضَ ظَهْرَكَ ﴿۳

Have we not expanded your chest for you, and relieved you of your burden, that weighed down your back?

Then God tells in these verses that this is his own act. He did it for his prophet. Then God can act and do something. Then its not strange when he talks about using his hand for twisting sky or other things he do himself. This is not another God, although is not creature of God. In other word, This is God himself and act like his hand.

 For example Ali has two hands, if you close your eyes and Ali without talking put his hand on your face, you will say to yourself:” this is Ali”, because you are not talking about his flesh, you are talking about your friend, Ali.

When somebody meet Jesus in pray, he is not thinking or watching a flesh, he is talking with his creator, his best friend, his Lord, because he cannot see him, but he can feel him in his life, during the time in everywhere, ask him something and give something from him because he is alive, he is not the “son of Miriam” and a prophet, he is the word of God, and not different from God.

If you say to yourself: This is the hand of Ali, it means you don`t think about reality of your friend, just at that moment, you are thinking about the flesh of your friend which you have seen before. And you cannot say reality of my friend is in his hand only! In the same way, if you cannot see the reality of your God, and are talking about creatures, you cannot say Jesus (son of Miriam) is God, No he is not. But if you talking and thinking about spiritual things, you can call him God, because from spiritual aspect , he has Spirit of God, in himself, and then he is Spiritual Son of God.                                                                                                                                   

IP IP Logged
Akhe Abdullah
Male Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 November 2008
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1252
Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 16 October 2009 at 10:15am
Before you said"Laws are not expired and will not,"and now you are saying"Yes, Laws do expire " you are contradicting yourself Moses,you are confusing me
IP IP Logged
Kent
Male Christian
Starter
Starter
Avatar

Joined: 24 January 2010
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2
Quote Kent Replybullet Posted: 24 January 2010 at 1:17pm
Back to Topic.

Christians are not so homogenous that it's correct to assume "Christians reject the Kaaba."

Most Christians don't know much about the history of the Kaaba or Islam, so their reaction is more a shrug of indifference than a rejection. Then there are those Christians who don't reject the Kaaba, but may feel the Kaabah 'rejects' Christians... no non-Muslim is allowed to approach within miles, though I & others like me would love to see it and it's black stone, respectfully, like I value my visits to a Hindu temple to learn about the faith and attempt to understand and appreciate the beliefs of others while clarifying and testing my own.

The accusation that the Kaaba is an Idol and Muslims idolators seems an odd one for we Christians to make. Jews had their Holy Place and relics (the Jerusalem Temple, Holy of Holies & Ark), and no Old or New Testament prophet including Jesus ever called their worship idolatry. Even Protestant Christians, who have criticized Catholic Christians for their religious statues & relics (last summer I saw Prague's church of the Infant Baby Jesus and Budapest's severed arm of Saint Stephen), yes, even we 'Bible-only' Christians don't call the Jews' Holy Place and relics Idols. And one recent offshoot of classical Christianity, Mormonism, even has their own Holy Temple in Salt Lake City, which non-Mormons aren't allowed to enter! Sound familiar?

Idolatry is such a slippery concept. To most Christians, it would be hard to find a world religion with more 'idols' than Hinduism. Yet the Hindus I know take great pains to tell me their numerous images and statutes of gods aren't 'idols'... their prostration and prayers are not really to the stone & metal, but to the spiritual beings 'behind' the visible forms that help them focus on the god beyond the image. This kind of denial really gets me thinking about the Bible's and Quran's prohibition against making and worshipping idols... were the people back then just not sophisticated enough to see beyond the physical object, like the Hindus say they do? Or is there something else going on? Could it be that the image that 'helps' one perceive God also serves to limit one's appreciation of God? Perhaps any physical representation of the Almighty cannot help but to diversify and diminish the Absolute. Maybe the sin in Idolatry is 'missing the mark,' or missing out on the unique greatness of the one, true God.

Do I, as a Christian, 'reject' the Kaaba? No, and I don't see the acts of Muslim reverence in Haadj as idolatry. They are rituals like the Christian's Baptism or 'Lord's Supper' which help the believer remember & connect with the invisible God.

Peace.


IP IP Logged
honeto
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 March 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2397
Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 27 January 2010 at 9:50am
Originally posted by Kent

Back to Topic.

Christians are not so homogenous that it's correct to assume "Christians reject the Kaaba."

Most Christians don't know much about the history of the Kaaba or Islam, so their reaction is more a shrug of indifference than a rejection. Then there are those Christians who don't reject the Kaaba, but may feel the Kaabah 'rejects' Christians... no non-Muslim is allowed to approach within miles, though I & others like me would love to see it and it's black stone, respectfully, like I value my visits to a Hindu temple to learn about the faith and attempt to understand and appreciate the beliefs of others while clarifying and testing my own.

The accusation that the Kaaba is an Idol and Muslims idolators seems an odd one for we Christians to make. Jews had their Holy Place and relics (the Jerusalem Temple, Holy of Holies & Ark), and no Old or New Testament prophet including Jesus ever called their worship idolatry. Even Protestant Christians, who have criticized Catholic Christians for their religious statues & relics (last summer I saw Prague's church of the Infant Baby Jesus and Budapest's severed arm of Saint Stephen), yes, even we 'Bible-only' Christians don't call the Jews' Holy Place and relics Idols. And one recent offshoot of classical Christianity, Mormonism, even has their own Holy Temple in Salt Lake City, which non-Mormons aren't allowed to enter! Sound familiar?

Idolatry is such a slippery concept. To most Christians, it would be hard to find a world religion with more 'idols' than Hinduism. Yet the Hindus I know take great pains to tell me their numerous images and statutes of gods aren't 'idols'... their prostration and prayers are not really to the stone & metal, but to the spiritual beings 'behind' the visible forms that help them focus on the god beyond the image. This kind of denial really gets me thinking about the Bible's and Quran's prohibition against making and worshipping idols... were the people back then just not sophisticated enough to see beyond the physical object, like the Hindus say they do? Or is there something else going on? Could it be that the image that 'helps' one perceive God also serves to limit one's appreciation of God? Perhaps any physical representation of the Almighty cannot help but to diversify and diminish the Absolute. Maybe the sin in Idolatry is 'missing the mark,' or missing out on the unique greatness of the one, true God.

Do I, as a Christian, 'reject' the Kaaba? No, and I don't see the acts of Muslim reverence in Haadj as idolatry. They are rituals like the Christian's Baptism or 'Lord's Supper' which help the believer remember & connect with the invisible God.

Peace.




Kent,
I welcome you here at the forum and hope we all will learn from each other.
We as individuals will have different understanding and interpretation of  things. In a result we may have as many understandings or versions of the same thing as number of people, each one pleasing themselves as they wished as well as agreeing with others on totally opposing views.

Our Creator would not have guided us by sending prophets and books, if that was His plan. It seems very clear from Old, New (Bible) and the Final Testaments (the Quran) that God has always sent His word of guidance for people and some set of rules to be followed. God has always warned people if they will ignore or reject His commands there will be  consequence. With His guidance along with abilities given to us by Him, we are to follow the right course by separating and avoiding the wrong, and figuring out the right and following and holding on to it. Why is that, because He has told us that He will hold us accountable for our intentions and actions.
As far as the kaaba, yes it is a Holy place, very important. This, according to Islamic teachings is the first ever house of worship built on earth. God's prophets has visited, built and maintained it. It is what it is, house of worship to our Creator. And a special place to visit on the footsteps of prophet Mohammed , Abraham and more (pbut). Does that make it an idol? No, because it is not a representation of any prophets nor any living thing of land, sea or air.
On the other hand Greek, Roman, Hindu or Catholic  erection and worship of statues or representations of living things, whether be elephant, monkey, human or part human like creature, and of those who have lived before on the earth is clearly idol worship. When you have a representation of someone or similar to one who has ever lived on earth
for adoration, bow/kneel down to and worship to, you have stepped into paganism in some form and nothing less.

Hasan



Edited by honeto - 27 January 2010 at 9:56am
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 28
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com