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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: WHY CHRISTIANS REJECT THE KAABA. Post Reply Post New Topic
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Honzo
 
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Quote Honzo Replybullet Posted: 07 January 2009 at 5:39am
Originally posted by Robin

I do not agree as it is just like to Pope kissing the lifeless cross around his neck!


Even the traditions which talk about kissing or touching the stone are VERY CLEAR that the Stone is JUST A STONE!

BUKHARI:

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667: 

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:  Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "NO DOUBT, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT ANYONE NOR HARM ANYONE. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."  

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 675:

Narrated Zaid bin Aslam from his father who said:  "Umar bin Al-Khattab addressed the Corner (Black Stone) saying, 'BY ALLAH! I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT NOR HARM. Had I not seen the Prophet touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you.' Then he kissed it and said, 'There is no reason for us to do Ramal (in Tawaf) except that we wanted to show off before the pagans, and now Allah has destroyed them.' 'Umar added, '(Nevertheless), the Prophet did that and we do not want to leave it (i.e. Ramal).'"

MUSLIM:

Book 007, Number 2914: 

Abdullah b. Sarjis reported:  I saw the bald one, i. e. 'Umar b. Khattib (Allah be pleased with him). kissing the Stone and saying: BY ALLAH. I AM KISSING WITH FULL CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE FACT THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND THAT YOU CAN NEITHER DO ANY HARM NOR GOOD; and if I had not seen Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) kissing you. I would not have kissed you. The rest of the hadith is the same.

The Stone is not be worshipped or regarded as anything but a marker.


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Quote Honzo Replybullet Posted: 07 January 2009 at 5:45am
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by Angel

[QUOTE=minuteman]The christians do not have any Center of prayer. They do not have a system of regular prayers. 
 
 
 
 
This is true, because we do not need, it we can pray to The Almighty God from anywhere on earth at any time from our hearts and not by rote from a book our to orders of men, as The Prophet Jesus said:-
 
Matthew 6:5-8
"Also, when YOU pray, YOU must not be as the hypocrites; because they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the broad ways to be visible to men. Truly I say to YOU, They are having their reward in full. 6 You, however, when you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret; then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you. 7 But when praying, do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words. 8 So, do not make yourselves like them, for God YOUR Father knows what things YOU are needing before ever YOU ask him.
 
 




To help readers understand the Islamic way of Worship better, I'd like to first present the following from the Bible:

Psalm 138:2
I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.

GOD Almighty's Holy Temple in Islam is the Kaaba in Mecca.


Genesis 28:16-18
16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, "Surely the LORD is in this place, and I was not aware of it."
17 He was afraid and said, "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven."
18 Early the next morning Jacob took the stone he had placed under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it.

Judges 20:18
18 The Israelites went up to Bethel (the House of GOD in Hebrew) and inquired of God. They said, "Who of us shall go first to fight against the Benjamites?" The LORD replied, "Judah shall go first."

1 Chronicles 6:47-49
47 the son of Mahli, the son of Mushi, the son of Merari, the son of Levi.
48 Their fellow Levites were assigned to all the other duties of the tabernacle, the house of God.
49 But Aaron and his descendants were the ones who presented offerings on the altar of burnt offering and on the altar of incense in connection with all that was done in the Most Holy Place, making atonement for Israel, in accordance with all that Moses the servant of God had commanded.


"Behold!  We gave the site, To Abraham, of the (Sacred) House (i.e., the Kaaba), (Saying):  'Associate not anything (In worship) with Me; And sanctify My House For those who compass it round, Or stand up, Or bow, or prostrate themselves (Therein in prayer).  And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways;   (The Noble Quran, 22:26-27)"


As we clearly see, the "House of GOD"Almighty is mentioned in both the Bible and the Noble Quran.  The Prostration to GOD Almighty in either His House or in the direction of His House (if you live far away) is the most proper way of Worship according to both the Bible and the Noble Quran.

As we also clearly see, the House of GOD Almighty was mentioned in the Bible first.  The Kaba or Kaaba (the black cube building in Saudi Arabia) is basically the symbolic point on earth (His House) that GOD Almighty Chose to have all of His True Believers meet Him through bowing down their faces in humility down to the ground before Him.

The actual bricks and cement that make up the Kaaba are not holy. 




Edited by Honzo - 07 January 2009 at 5:52am
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 07 January 2009 at 2:03pm
The cross reperesent christ , a living person on the cross. The black stone dos not represent any living person.
Hasan 
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2009 at 3:17am

Question:

When Islam is against idol worship why do the Muslims worship, and bow down to the Kaaba in their prayer?

Answer:

Kaaba is the Qibla i.e. the direction Muslims face during their prayers. It is important to note that though Muslims face the Kaaba during prayers, they do not worship the Kaaba. Muslims worship and bow to none but Allah.

It is mentioned in Surah Baqarah:

"We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque: wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction."
                              [Al-Qur’an 2:144]

 
me - Stressing that even in the Qur'an, the Kaaba is meant as a direction for prayers, some unified point to face - so that everyone doesnt do thier own thing - the verse in no way implies Muslims are to worship it, or bow to it, or hold it in reverence etc.
 

1.  
Islam believes in fostering unity

For instance, if Muslims want to offer Salaah (Prayer), it is possible that some may wish to face north, while some may wish to face south. In order to unite Muslims in their worship of the One True God, Muslims, wherever they may be, are asked to face in only one direction i.e. towards the Kaaba. If some Muslims live towards the west of the Kaaba they face the east. Similarly if they live towards the east of the Kaaba they face the west.


2.  
Kaaba is at the Centre of the World Map

The Muslims were the first people to draw the map of the world. They drew the map with the south facing upwards and north downwards. The Kaaba was at the centre. Later, western cartographers drew the map upside down with the north facing upwards and south downwards. Yet, Alhamdullilah the Kaaba is at the centre of the world map.


3.  
Tawaaf around Kaaba for indicating one God

When the Muslims go to Masjid-e-Haram in Makkah, they perform tawaaf or circumambulation round the Kaaba. This act symbolizes the belief and worship of One God, since, just as every circle has one centre, so also there is only one Allah (swt) worthy of worship.


4.  
Hadith of Umar (may Allah be pleased with him)

Regarding the black stone, hajr-e-aswad, there is a hadith (tradition), attributed to the illustrious companion of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), Umar (may Allah be pleased with him).

According to Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, book of Hajj, chapter 56, H.No. 675. Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, "I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you".


5.  
People stood on Kaaba and gave the adhaan
At the time of the Prophet, people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the ‘adhaan’ or the call to prayer. One may ask those who allege that Muslims worship the Kaaba; which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?

 
 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2009 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by Gulliver



Hasan


"While a Catholic is not a Catholic until he/she do all of that I described above."

Will you stop with your ignorant, unadulterated lying garbage !!!

If I based my understanding of Islam on the way many Muslims behave - yourself dear Hasan included here, I'd be as lost with it all, as you most definitely are about true Catholicism. You need to do some proper and serious research.

One thing you certainly 'idolise' is that pathetic over inflated ego of yours. Shame on you !!! 


I am gonna be keeping an eye on you from now on :-)


 
Guilliver,
 
what you call lying and garbage is the truth I have observed while being among the Catholics of Texas and Mexico. I also base a lot of this information through my wife who grew up a Catholic with all those practices that I have described. Everything I have described is true and nothing is from myself.
You may be are not a Catholic by belief yourself thus all these acts seem wrong to you. But as I repect all, I still will not call it garbage, its an individual's own act, and I believe each one will asnwer for themself when they are called for account.
Hasan
 


Edited by honeto - 08 January 2009 at 1:43pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Honzo Replybullet Posted: 08 January 2009 at 9:57pm

The Jewish Encyclopedia says:

The cross as a Christian symbol or "seal" came into use at least as early as the second century (see "Apost. Const." iii. 17; Epistle of Barnabas, xi.-xii.; Justin, "Apologia," i. 55-60; "Dial. cum Tryph." 85-97); and the marking of a cross upon the forehead and the chest was regarded as a talisman against the powers of demons (Tertullian, "De Corona," iii.; Cyprian, "Testimonies," xi. 21–22; Lactantius, "Divinæ Institutiones," iv. 27, and elsewhere). Accordingly the Christian Fathers had to defend themselves, as early as the second century, against the charge of being worshipers of the cross, as may be learned from Tertullian, "Apologia," xii., xvii., and Minucius Felix, "Octavius," xxix. Christians used to swear by the power of the cross (see Apocalypse of Mary, viii., in James, "Texts and Studies," iii. 118).
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2009 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Honzo

Originally posted by Robin

I do not agree as it is just like to Pope kissing the lifeless cross around his neck!

 the Stone is JUST A STONE! 
 
 
Then why kiss it?
 
 
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Quote Honzo Replybullet Posted: 10 January 2009 at 6:09am
Originally posted by robin

 
Then why kiss it?
 
 



Hi,


The stone was sent down by Allah Almighty to Prophet Abraham and his son Ishmael, peace be upon both of them, to give the precise location of where the Kaaba was to be built by them.  We believe that Prophets Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba.  Western Scientists have confirmed that the black stone, which resides near the Kaaba in the Holy City of Mecca, is an outside METEORITE OBJECT!


Since this object was sent by GOD Almighty Himself, or was directed by GOD Almighty Himself to descend to earth for the very purpose of determining the location of the Kaaba, then the Prophet was reasonable and within his rights to have special feelings for this Heavenly object.  And again, he never worshipped it.  He just respected the fact that it was a very special piece of stone with much impact on history and the entire practice of Islam.

Saheeh Bukhari

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667:

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:

'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

 

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 675:

Narrated Zaid bin Aslam from his father who said:

"Umar bin Al-Khattab addressed the Corner (Black Stone) saying, 'By Allah! I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you.' Then he kissed it and said, 'There is no reason for us to do Ramal (in Tawaf) except that we wanted to show off before the pagans, and now Allah has destroyed them.' 'Umar added, '(Nevertheless), the Prophet did that and we do not want to leave it (i.e. Ramal).'

 

We can see that Umar was even acknowledging that this stone had no powers to do anything. So if the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) truly worshipped this stone then he should have at least informed his companions that this stone was an idol and that they should pray to it. However, we see that the companions did not do such a thing because the Prophet (PBUH) did not do such a thing.




Edited by Honzo - 10 January 2009 at 6:36am
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