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Sign*Reader

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Posted: 23 June 2008 at 6:39pm

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

LOL I know Nur Ilahi is wasting his time and energies anyways but the
Facts are: ...

Thank you for those facts about drunk driving. How many of those terrible accidents do you think were caused by moderate use of alcohol?

Or maybe you were trying to prove that motor vehicles should be prohibited?

Legally the motor vehicle are prohibited for the guys or gals to use who have taken the number of drinks depending on their weights chart!
Some are impaired with one drink some may take half a dozen! that is way it is my dear friend!
If you like you may request a more detailed breakdown on moderately impaired dead souls from the agency!
You might like to know it is no fun riding a horse while impaired Wink

Edited by Sign*Reader - 23 June 2008 at 6:45pm

Cycle of Human Destiny: From Faith> Courage>Liberty>Abundance> Selfishness>Complacency>Apathy>Immorality>Bondage>back to Faith or Extinction...

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Merigen

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Posted: 23 June 2008 at 6:53pm

Hello Sign*Reader,

I checked the link you gave me. It's the usual stuff. I never wrote that these were sites hosted by Muslims in the first place. But what you said does give me license then to believe in other sites that say that Muslims want to take over the world, right? There sure are alot of them out there including many by Muslim leaders and Muslim religious spokesmen.

Merigen

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 23 June 2008 at 7:08pm

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

You might like to know it is no fun riding a horse while impaired Wink

I've never tried it myself, so I'll have to take your word for it.

Anyway, it may not be fun, but it's a whole lot safer -- unless the horse is also impaired.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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Sign*Reader

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Posted: 23 June 2008 at 7:19pm

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Israfil

It is obvious you and I have trouble defining what an intoxicant is. You are defining an intoxicant as one who is "drunk, buzzed, etc"

Yes, and thank you for phrasing that in such a neutral way. Arguing over definitions (i.e., yours versus mine) is pointless.

Instead we need to look at the word in context and use our intellect to try to understand what it means in the Quran:

O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain? (5:90-91)

We are told to eschew (avoid) intoxicants "that we may prosper". The danger of intoxicants is that they "excite enmity and hatred", and make us forget Allah and prayer.

Now, ask yourself: does a single glass of wine with a meal cause any of these things? Of course not. The Quran is clearly describing drunkenness, not moderation. A single glass of wine does not excite hatred, does not cause forgetfulness, does not lead to failure. Only excessive drinking can do that.

Excuse my two cents:
If you pay attention to the impairment chart you will think again trying to push the envelope to each it is a different level based on the body mass! When you are addicted to some thing the moderation always loses!
When the boss (Allah) says it is no, it is no! This order came in two stages if you know the background --what part the NO you don't understand?

Don't take me wrong there are countless nominal Muslims living in the secular mode after colonialism of the Muslim lands having a drink or the whole bottle is a non issue but then there are host of other things they have to face in their lives for which they are totally unprepared and fall flat on their faces in misery and no place to turn to! Just like a miserable western family situation is starkly evident with high divorces, adultery out of wedlock children, suicides and what have you. Why? almost everybody on my street is divorced! I heard my neighbor calling his wife b*tch and his dog girl; man that is great culture! The dog is dead and he looks lost to me And this is a Jewish family, reformed of course!

Edited by Sign*Reader - 23 June 2008 at 7:26pm

Cycle of Human Destiny: From Faith> Courage>Liberty>Abundance> Selfishness>Complacency>Apathy>Immorality>Bondage>back to Faith or Extinction...

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Angel

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Posted: 23 June 2008 at 9:12pm

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by Angel

If someone is an alcoholic then that person has deeper issues, not because one starts with small amounts.

LOL I know Nur Ilahi is wasting his time and energies anyways but the
Facts are:

I think you meant me.

And no I am not wasting my time. I stand by what I said, and I am not talking about alcohol related incidents. Nur points out that drinking small amounts you become an alcoholic (and while in a small way it may). But alcoholics have deeper issues, alcohol is one of many substances that is used to deaden feelings/issues that one does not want to deal with. (usually makes it worse really)

The drivers all start with a small amount and then they have more of that small amount and then they just become a statistic themselves!

I don't disagree with this. some people do lose track of how many drinks they have had. And everyone is different in how they handle it. This doesn't make one an alcoholic thou.

Alcoholic is termed by someone drinking all (most of the) day everyday, and its an dependence issue. Not the occasional drink.

Edited by Angel - 23 June 2008 at 9:14pm

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

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Nur_Ilahi

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Posted: 24 June 2008 at 7:25am

Hi Ron,

We are told to eschew (avoid) intoxicants "that we may prosper". The danger of intoxicants is that they "excite enmity and hatred", and make us forget Allah and prayer.

You forgot the continuation - will ye not then abstain?

People are not all the same Ron. Some people just with a small drink of this poisonous drink, will feel the effect. While some people will take more. Again the question is, how much advantages has this drink compared to the disadvantages of it? Can't people live without alcohol? Must enjoyment always include drinking?

Perhaps you have not seen the weak - women and children being abused by this drinking habit. If you were one of the victim, or had seen one, then you may change your mind.

A single glass of wine does not excite hatred, does not cause forgetfulness, does not lead to failure.

Alcoholic drink is just not a glass of wine. How many of you who drink this poisonous drink will stop at one glass only? Most probably, when it is a free flow party, the inclination to drink more is there.

It all started with a single drink.

Alcohol has many uses. However it is not to be consumed internally. God should know! He created this substance. Hence His law for complete abstinence.

A true religion worship the Creator of the whole universe. A false one worship a Creation of the Creator.

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 24 June 2008 at 7:21pm

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

You forgot the continuation - will ye not then abstain?

No, I didn't forget. I abstain from drunkenness, which is what the passage is quite clearly describing.

People are not all the same Ron.

Yes, I know that. Do you? Those people who cannot stop at a single drink should not have any at all; but I am not one of them.

Again the question is, how much advantages has this drink compared to the disadvantages of it?

Well, for me the advantage is an estimated 3.8 years extra lifespan, according to one study. Disadvantages? None at all. I make my own wine for the most part, so it's not even expensive.

Perhaps you have not seen the weak - women and children being abused by this drinking habit. If you were one of the victim, or had seen one, then you may change your mind.

And if I never had another glass of wine in my life, how exactly would that help these victims?

...this poisonous drink...

Please explain to me why you keep calling it "poisonous". What kind of "poison" is it that adds almost four years to my lifespan?

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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Israfil

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Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:12pm

Ron you seem not have any obvious scientific sense on the contents of alcohol do you? Alcohol even consumed in moderation does not add to your lifespan it is what the body does in reaction to moderate consumption is what adds to the lifespan. Also, I would go back and refute your statement but quite honestly explaining the enzyme Alcohol dehydrogenes to you is pointless. If you're a winemaker mayeb you should school yourself on human anatomy and reaction to alcoholic beverages. Clearly ALL alcohol has intoxicant contents in it that the body breaks down so it is less poisonous.

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Nur_Ilahi

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Posted: 25 June 2008 at 5:40am

I am borrowing sign*reader's signature.

When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth, they will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest!

Tks Sign*reader. I like it very much.

---------------------

Ron, disadvantages are many of course. We had already listed down in our previous posts above.

I remember when I was small, when electricity was scarce, my father used a kerosene lamp and that kerosene lamp needed alcohol to burn that special bulb. When that alcohol got lighted with a match, it caught fire. Imagine drinking this fiery spirit.

God Almighty gave us 'aql to think. How could a substance that can burn your skin, good or healthy if consumed internally?

I believe that some of the verses in the Bible were from God, some from the prophets and the bulk were written by historians.

So I will quote the verses that I believe were either originated from God or the Prophet in regards to drinking wine.

9. Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: (Leviticus 10:9)

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. (Proverbs 20:1)

For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence. (Proverbs 4: 17)

But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. (Isaiah 28:7)

I do believe in the gists of these verses as Moses and Jesus were prophets of God Almighty.

Alcohol at the time of Moses and Jesus is still the same alcohol as it is today. So Ron, why Christians contradicts the teaching of Moses and Jesus?

A true religion worship the Creator of the whole universe. A false one worship a Creation of the Creator.

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 25 June 2008 at 4:43pm

Originally posted by Israfil

Alcohol even consumed in moderation does not add to your lifespan it is what the body does in reaction to moderate consumption is what adds to the lifespan.

You're splitting hairs, and for no purpose. The same could be said about food, or exercise, or just about anything else that keeps us healthy.

Also, I would go back and refute your statement but quite honestly explaining the enzyme Alcohol dehydrogenes to you is pointless.

We can agree on that, anyway. It would be pointless, because the specific enzyme(s) involved are irrelevant.

Clearly ALL alcohol has intoxicant contents in it that the body breaks down so it is less poisonous.

Also irrelevant. As I said, the body breaks down all food. That doesn't make it poisonous.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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Topic: ADEENUL ‘AQL – RELIGION IS INTELLECT .
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Author	Message
Sign*Reader Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1937	Posted: 23 June 2008 at 6:39pm
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* **Originally posted by SignReader*** LOL I know Nur Ilahi is wasting his time and energies anyways but the Facts are: ... Thank you for those facts about drunk driving. How many of those terrible accidents do you think were caused by moderate use of alcohol? Or maybe you were trying to prove that motor vehicles should be prohibited? Legally the motor vehicle are prohibited for the guys or gals to use who have taken the number of drinks depending on their weights chart! Some are impaired with one drink some may take half a dozen! that is way it is my dear friend! If you like you may request a more detailed breakdown on moderately impaired dead souls from the agency! You might like to know it is no fun riding a horse while impaired Edited by Sign*Reader - 23 June 2008 at 6:45pm
	Cycle of Human Destiny: From Faith> Courage>Liberty>Abundance> Selfishness>Complacency>Apathy>Immorality>Bondage>back to Faith or Extinction...
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Merigen Guest Group Joined: 26 May 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 52	Posted: 23 June 2008 at 6:53pm
	Hello Sign*Reader, I checked the link you gave me. It's the usual stuff. I never wrote that these were sites hosted by Muslims in the first place. But what you said does give me license then to believe in other sites that say that Muslims want to take over the world, right? There sure are alot of them out there including many by Muslim leaders and Muslim religious spokesmen. Merigen
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 984	Posted: 23 June 2008 at 7:08pm
	**Originally posted by SignReader*** You might like to know it is no fun riding a horse while impaired I've never tried it myself, so I'll have to take your word for it. Anyway, it may not be fun, but it's a whole lot safer -- unless the horse is also impaired.
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
	IP Logged

Sign*Reader Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1937	Posted: 23 June 2008 at 7:19pm
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* *Originally posted by Israfil* It is obvious you and I have trouble defining what an intoxicant is. You are defining an intoxicant as one who is "drunk, buzzed, etc" Yes, and thank you for phrasing that in such a neutral way. Arguing over definitions (i.e., yours versus mine) is pointless. Instead we need to look at the word in context and use our intellect to try to understand what it means in the Quran: O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain? (5:90-91) We are told to eschew (avoid) intoxicants "that we may prosper". The danger of intoxicants is that they "excite enmity and hatred", and make us forget Allah and prayer. Now, ask yourself: does a single glass of wine with a meal cause any of these things? Of course not. The Quran is clearly describing drunkenness, not moderation. A single glass of wine does not excite hatred, does not cause forgetfulness, does not lead to failure. Only excessive drinking can do that. Excuse my two cents: If you pay attention to the impairment chart you will think again trying to push the envelope to each it is a different level based on the body mass! When you are addicted to some thing the moderation always loses! When the boss (Allah) says it is no, it is no! This order came in two stages if you know the background --what part the NO you don't understand? Don't take me wrong there are countless nominal Muslims living in the secular mode after colonialism of the Muslim lands having a drink or the whole bottle is a non issue but then there are host of other things they have to face in their lives for which they are totally unprepared and fall flat on their faces in misery and no place to turn to! Just like a miserable western family situation is starkly evident with high divorces, adultery out of wedlock children, suicides and what have you. Why? almost everybody on my street is divorced! I heard my neighbor calling his wife btch and his dog girl; man that is great culture! The dog is dead and he looks lost to me And this is a Jewish family, reformed of course! Edited by SignReader - 23 June 2008 at 7:26pm
	Cycle of Human Destiny: From Faith> Courage>Liberty>Abundance> Selfishness>Complacency>Apathy>Immorality>Bondage>back to Faith or Extinction...
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Angel Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Location: Australia, Melbourne Online Status: Offline Posts: 6427	Posted: 23 June 2008 at 9:12pm
	**Originally posted by SignReader* Originally posted by Angel If someone is an alcoholic then that person has deeper issues, not because one starts with small amounts. LOL I know Nur Ilahi is wasting his time and energies anyways but the Facts are: I think you meant me. And no I am not wasting my time. I stand by what I said, and I am not talking about alcohol related incidents. Nur points out that drinking small amounts you become an alcoholic (and while in a small way it may). But alcoholics have deeper issues,** alcohol is one of many substances that is used to deaden feelings/issues that one does not want to deal with. (usually makes it worse really) The drivers all start with a small amount and then they have more of that small amount and then they just become a statistic themselves! I don't disagree with this. some people do lose track of how many drinks they have had. And everyone is different in how they handle it. This doesn't make one an alcoholic thou. Alcoholic is termed by someone drinking all (most of the) day everyday, and its an dependence issue. Not the occasional drink. Edited by Angel - 23 June 2008 at 9:14pm
	~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 885	Posted: 24 June 2008 at 7:25am
	Hi Ron, We are told to eschew (avoid) intoxicants "that we may prosper". The danger of intoxicants is that they "excite enmity and hatred", and make us forget Allah and prayer. You forgot the continuation - will ye not then abstain? Now, ask yourself: does a single glass of wine with a meal cause any of these things? Of course not. The Quran is clearly describing drunkenness, not moderation. A single glass of wine does not excite hatred, does not cause forgetfulness, does not lead to failure. Only excessive drinking can do that. People are not all the same Ron. Some people just with a small drink of this poisonous drink, will feel the effect. While some people will take more. Again the question is, how much advantages has this drink compared to the disadvantages of it? Can't people live without alcohol? Must enjoyment always include drinking? Perhaps you have not seen the weak - women and children being abused by this drinking habit. If you were one of the victim, or had seen one, then you may change your mind. A single glass of wine does not excite hatred, does not cause forgetfulness, does not lead to failure. Alcoholic drink is just not a glass of wine. How many of you who drink this poisonous drink will stop at one glass only? Most probably, when it is a free flow party, the inclination to drink more is there. It all started with a single drink. Alcohol has many uses. However it is not to be consumed internally. God should know! He created this substance. Hence His law for complete abstinence.
	A true religion worship the Creator of the whole universe. A false one worship a Creation of the Creator.
	IP Logged

Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 984	Posted: 24 June 2008 at 7:21pm
	*Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi* You forgot the continuation - will ye not then abstain? No, I didn't forget. I abstain from drunkenness, which is what the passage is quite clearly describing. People are not all the same Ron. Yes, I know that. Do you? Those people who cannot stop at a single drink should not have any at all; but I am not one of them. Again the question is, how much advantages has this drink compared to the disadvantages of it? Well, for me the advantage is an estimated 3.8 years extra lifespan, according to one study. Disadvantages? None at all. I make my own wine for the most part, so it's not even expensive. Perhaps you have not seen the weak - women and children being abused by this drinking habit. If you were one of the victim, or had seen one, then you may change your mind. And if I never had another glass of wine in my life, how exactly would that help these victims? ...this poisonous drink... Please explain to me why you keep calling it "poisonous". What kind of "poison" is it that adds almost four years to my lifespan?
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Israfil Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3984	Posted: 24 June 2008 at 10:12pm
	Ron you seem not have any obvious scientific sense on the contents of alcohol do you? Alcohol even consumed in moderation does not add to your lifespan it is what the body does in reaction to moderate consumption is what adds to the lifespan. Also, I would go back and refute your statement but quite honestly explaining the enzyme Alcohol dehydrogenes to you is pointless. If you're a winemaker mayeb you should school yourself on human anatomy and reaction to alcoholic beverages. Clearly ALL alcohol has intoxicant contents in it that the body breaks down so it is less poisonous.
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Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 885	Posted: 25 June 2008 at 5:40am
	*I am borrowing signreader's signature. When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth, they will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest!** Tks Signreader. I like it very much. --------------------- Ron, disadvantages are many of course. We had already listed down in our previous posts above.* I remember when I was small, when electricity was scarce, my father used a kerosene lamp and that kerosene lamp needed alcohol to burn that special bulb. When that alcohol got lighted with a match, it caught fire. Imagine drinking this fiery spirit. God Almighty gave us 'aql to think. How could a substance that can burn your skin, good or healthy if consumed internally? I believe that some of the verses in the Bible were from God, some from the prophets and the bulk were written by historians. So I will quote the verses that I believe were either originated from God or the Prophet in regards to drinking wine. 9. Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: (Leviticus 10:9) Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. (Proverbs 20:1) For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence. (Proverbs 4: 17) But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. (Isaiah 28:7) I do believe in the gists of these verses as Moses and Jesus were prophets of God Almighty. Alcohol at the time of Moses and Jesus is still the same alcohol as it is today. So Ron, why Christians contradicts the teaching of Moses and Jesus?
	A true religion worship the Creator of the whole universe. A false one worship a Creation of the Creator.
	IP Logged

Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 984	Posted: 25 June 2008 at 4:43pm
	*Originally posted by Israfil* Alcohol even consumed in moderation does not add to your lifespan it is what the body does in reaction to moderate consumption is what adds to the lifespan. You're splitting hairs, and for no purpose. The same could be said about food, or exercise, or just about anything else that keeps us healthy. Also, I would go back and refute your statement but quite honestly explaining the enzyme Alcohol dehydrogenes to you is pointless. We can agree on that, anyway. It would be pointless, because the specific enzyme(s) involved are irrelevant. Clearly ALL alcohol has intoxicant contents in it that the body breaks down so it is less poisonous. Also irrelevant. As I said, the body breaks down all food. That doesn't make it poisonous.
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
	IP Logged