IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: ADEENUL ‘AQL

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Nur_Ilahi

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Posted: 22 June 2008 at 12:30am

Originally posted by Ron Webb

I hope you're speaking only for yourself and not for Muslims in general. I think God would be offended by such a cynical and conditional form of "love".

Hi Ron,

This meaning of Love of God depends on the understanding, knowledge and experience of a person. A practising Muslim and a non-Practising Muslim’s understanding of God’s Love may vary vastly. A layman and a sheikh’s understanding differs. A student of fiqh (Islamic Jurispudence) and a student of Tasawwuf (The inwardness of Islam) also differs. Whatever it is, it depends on what perspective and how close a person is with God. Indeed, I have no doubt that there are many many non-Muslims who have a relationship with God. Indeed there can only be One God who created us and the whole universe. His love encompasses All. No one is excluded. For those who understand the deeper meaning of God’s Love, he or she will never ask for anything except His Redha (His Pleasure).

For myself, love of God is identical with love of His creation. There's no barter involved -- I just think this world is a marvelous, fascinating place, and I'm equally impressed whether it came together by sheer accident, by evolution, or under some guiding intelligence. If the Intelligent Designer ever chooses to reveal himself/themselves to me, I'll certainly express my appreciation and admiration for his/their work, with no strings attached.

I agree very much with that post of yours. It is so similar to the essence of Love in Sufism. I quote here - Love is to see what is good and beautiful in everything. It is to learn from everything, to see the gifts of God and the generosity of God in everything, to see the gifts of God and the generosity of God in everything. It is to be thankful for all God's bounties.

This is the first step on the road to the love of God. This is just a seed of love. In time, the seed will grow and become a tree and bear fruit. Then, whoever tastes of that fruit will know what real love is. It will be difficult for those who have tasted to tell of it to those who did not.

Love is a special pleasurable pain. Whoever has this in their heart will know the secret. They will see that everything is Truth, and that everything leads to Truth. There is nothing but Truth. In the realization of that they will be overcome. They will sink into the sea of Truth. http://www.crescentlife.com/spirituality/love_is_the_wine.htm

Perhaps Ron, you do not know, that one of Allah’s attribute is Al-Haqq – THE TRUTH.

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 22 June 2008 at 10:42am

Originally posted by Israfil

Ron as smart as you are you above comment does not make "scientific sense." Alcohol is an intoxicant period.

Alcohol is an intoxicant only when it intoxicates. Used in moderation, it doesn't, therefore it isn't.

Have you ever smelled freshly baked bread? You know what gives it that wonderful aroma, don't you? Is fresh bread an intoxicant?

In other words, the body responds to any intoxicants which may be harmful. If Alcohol wasn't an intoxicant the body wouldn't need to break it down to be less harmful.

The body breaks down (metabolizes) all food. That doesn't mean it is harmful or intoxicating.

The thing you gotta understand Ron is that your intellect is not some conscious where you know what is good and bad and can make a rational decision.

If not my intellect and/or conscience, then what? How else can I recognize good or bad?

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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Israfil

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Posted: 22 June 2008 at 2:06pm

RON I'm seriously teling you that Alcohol and what its made out of (small percentage of ethanol and other contents) are intoxicants. There are specific enzymes in the body that break down alcohol....ah nevermind

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 22 June 2008 at 7:36pm

Yes I know that it can be an intoxicant; but it doesn't have to be. It also can be a great many other things, including a vasodilator (which is why it is beneficial to the heart), a solvent, a preservative, an antiseptic, a fuel, etc., depending on how it is being used. It is only an intoxicant when you drink enough to intoxicate you.

I had a glass of red wine with my dinner a few days ago, and I don't think anyone would have described me as "intoxicated" -- ergo, in that particular instance the wine was not an intoxicant. If I had drunk the entire bottle, that would have been a different story.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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Israfil

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Posted: 22 June 2008 at 9:13pm

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Yes I know that it can be an intoxicant; but it doesn't have to be. It also can be a great many other things, including a vasodilator (which is why it is beneficial to the heart), a solvent, a preservative, an antiseptic, a fuel, etc., depending on how it is being used. It is only an intoxicant when you drink enough to intoxicate you.

It is obvious you and I have trouble defining what an intoxicant is. You are defining an intoxicant as one who is "drunk, buzzed, etc" I define intoxicant as any substance that has poisonous contents which are harmful to the body. What I'm saying is, if Alcohol was NOT an intoxicant ergo, did not have poisonous contents our Alcohol Dehydrogenese would not need to break down its content to make it less poisonous. Being "intoxicated" is only a symptom of the body's inability to not break down enough of the poisonous contents of alcohol. I'm sure when you drink "wine" on an empty stomach and get a "head trip" or being "buzzed" those are the results of that process.

So what I was saying was alcohol is an intoxicant whether its consumed in moderation or not. The only difference here is when it is consumed in moderation it is less harmful because there is less of it in the body versus a drunk who drinks an entire bottle of, let's say, Vodka.

Edited by Israfil - 22 June 2008 at 9:18pm

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Nur_Ilahi

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Posted: 23 June 2008 at 5:42am

Alcohol is indeed an intoxicant. Now whether someone is intoxicated or not after drinking it, the question is, why are drunkards a big problem and nuisance? How much damage can a drunkard inflict on himself and his family? How can western society stop this problem?

In the Old Testament, drinking wine was prohibited, yet in the New Testament, Jesus was even said to turn water into wine. These inconsistencies in the Bible perhaps gave rise to the contradictions that is now apparent in Christianity. I quote this words from one of my favourite website - http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/jesus_broke_the_law.htm

Islam, the Kingdom of God, forbids the consumption of alcohol, and purges the society from all social evils.

Alcoholic drinks are the only poison that is licensed in many countries. However, Islam took a clear attitude towards alcoholic drinks more than 1400 years ago. Islam prohibits such drinks. Any drink that causes drunkenness is prohibited in Islam regardless of the matter it is made from and regardless of the quantity. According to Islam, if too much of a drink causes drunkenness, then any small quantity of this drink is prohibited, because all alcoholics start with small quantities, and then they become the slaves of alcohol. (Muhammad Ali Alkhuli, The Need For Islam, First Edition 1981, p. 7)

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.

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Angel

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Posted: 23 June 2008 at 7:55am

If someone is an alcoholic then that person has deeper issues, not because one starts with small amounts.

[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

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Sign*Reader

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Posted: 23 June 2008 at 4:06pm

Originally posted by Angel

If someone is an alcoholic then that person has deeper issues, not because one starts with small amounts.

LOL I know Nur Ilahi is wasting his time and energies anyways but the
Facts are:

Alcohol-related motor vehicle crashes kill someone every 31 minutes and non fatally injure someone every two minutes! (NHTSA06).

16,885 deaths in the U.S.

More than half of the 414 child passengers ages 14 and younger who died in alcohol-related crashes during 2005 were riding with the drinking drive

48 children age 14 years and younger who were killed as pedestrians or pedal cyclists were struck by impaired drivers

Each year, alcohol-related crashes in the United States cost about $51 billion

The drivers all start with a small amount and then they have more of that small amount and then they just become a statistic themselves!

I have no issue with the numbers but it takes our tax dollars to cleanup the mess and injuries on our loved ones -who never touched the booze- they leave behind!

Edited by Sign*Reader - 23 June 2008 at 4:53pm

Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

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Topic: ADEENUL ‘AQL – RELIGION IS INTELLECT .
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Author	Message
Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1031	Posted: 22 June 2008 at 12:30am
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* I hope you're speaking only for yourself and not for Muslims in general. I think God would be offended by such a cynical and conditional form of "love". Hi Ron, This meaning of Love of God depends on the understanding, knowledge and experience of a person. A practising Muslim and a non-Practising Muslim’s understanding of God’s Love may vary vastly. A layman and a sheikh’s understanding differs. A student of fiqh (Islamic Jurispudence) and a student of Tasawwuf (The inwardness of Islam) also differs. Whatever it is, it depends on what perspective and how close a person is with God. Indeed, I have no doubt that there are many many non-Muslims who have a relationship with God. Indeed there can only be One God who created us and the whole universe. His love encompasses All. No one is excluded. For those who understand the deeper meaning of God’s Love, he or she will never ask for anything except His Redha (His Pleasure). For myself, love of God is identical with love of His creation. There's no barter involved -- I just think this world is a marvelous, fascinating place, and I'm equally impressed whether it came together by sheer accident, by evolution, or under some guiding intelligence. If the Intelligent Designer ever chooses to reveal himself/themselves to me, I'll certainly express my appreciation and admiration for his/their work, with no strings attached. I agree very much with that post of yours. It is so similar to the essence of Love in Sufism. I quote here - Love is to see what is good and beautiful in everything. It is to learn from everything, to see the gifts of God and the generosity of God in everything, to see the gifts of God and the generosity of God in everything. It is to be thankful for all God's bounties. This is the first step on the road to the love of God. This is just a seed of love. In time, the seed will grow and become a tree and bear fruit. Then, whoever tastes of that fruit will know what real love is. It will be difficult for those who have tasted to tell of it to those who did not. Love is a special pleasurable pain. Whoever has this in their heart will know the secret. They will see that everything is Truth, and that everything leads to Truth. There is nothing but Truth. In the realization of that they will be overcome. They will sink into the sea of Truth. http://www.crescentlife.com/spirituality/love_is_the_wine.htm Perhaps Ron, you do not know, that one of Allah’s attribute is Al-Haqq – THE TRUTH.
	Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
	IP Logged

Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1407	Posted: 22 June 2008 at 10:42am
	*Originally posted by Israfil* Ron as smart as you are you above comment does not make "scientific sense." Alcohol is an intoxicant period. Alcohol is an intoxicant only when it intoxicates. Used in moderation, it doesn't, therefore it isn't. Have you ever smelled freshly baked bread? You know what gives it that wonderful aroma, don't you? Is fresh bread an intoxicant? In other words, the body responds to any intoxicants which may be harmful. If Alcohol wasn't an intoxicant the body wouldn't need to break it down to be less harmful. The body breaks down (metabolizes) all food. That doesn't mean it is harmful or intoxicating. The thing you gotta understand Ron is that your intellect is not some conscious where you know what is good and bad and can make a rational decision. If not my intellect and/or conscience, then what? How else can I recognize good or bad?
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
	IP Logged

Israfil Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3984	Posted: 22 June 2008 at 2:06pm
	RON I'm seriously teling you that Alcohol and what its made out of (small percentage of ethanol and other contents) are intoxicants. There are specific enzymes in the body that break down alcohol....ah nevermind
	IP Logged

Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1407	Posted: 22 June 2008 at 7:36pm
	Yes I know that it can be an intoxicant; but it doesn't have to be. It also can be a great many other things, including a vasodilator (which is why it is beneficial to the heart), a solvent, a preservative, an antiseptic, a fuel, etc., depending on how it is being used. It is only an intoxicant when you drink enough to intoxicate you. I had a glass of red wine with my dinner a few days ago, and I don't think anyone would have described me as "intoxicated" -- ergo, in that particular instance the wine was not an intoxicant. If I had drunk the entire bottle, that would have been a different story.
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
	IP Logged

Israfil Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3984	Posted: 22 June 2008 at 9:13pm
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* Yes I know that it can be an intoxicant; but it doesn't have to be. It also can be a great many other things, including a vasodilator (which is why it is beneficial to the heart), a solvent, a preservative, an antiseptic, a fuel, etc., depending on how it is being used. It is only an intoxicant when you drink enough to intoxicate you. I had a glass of red wine with my dinner a few days ago, and I don't think anyone would have described me as "intoxicated" -- ergo, in that particular instance the wine was not an intoxicant. If I had drunk the entire bottle, that would have been a different story. It is obvious you and I have trouble defining what an intoxicant is. You are defining an intoxicant as one who is "drunk, buzzed, etc" I define intoxicant as any substance that has poisonous contents which are harmful to the body. What I'm saying is, if Alcohol was NOT an intoxicant ergo, did not have poisonous contents our Alcohol Dehydrogenese would not need to break down its content to make it less poisonous. Being "intoxicated" is only a symptom of the body's inability to not break down enough of the poisonous contents of alcohol. I'm sure when you drink "wine" on an empty stomach and get a "head trip" or being "buzzed" those are the results of that process. So what I was saying was alcohol is an intoxicant whether its consumed in moderation or not. The only difference here is when it is consumed in moderation it is less harmful because there is less of it in the body versus a drunk who drinks an entire bottle of, let's say, Vodka. Edited by Israfil - 22 June 2008 at 9:18pm
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Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1031	Posted: 23 June 2008 at 5:42am
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* Yes I know that it can be an intoxicant; but it doesn't have to be. It also can be a great many other things, including a vasodilator (which is why it is beneficial to the heart), a solvent, a preservative, an antiseptic, a fuel, etc., depending on how it is being used. It is only an intoxicant when you drink enough to intoxicate you. I had a glass of red wine with my dinner a few days ago, and I don't think anyone would have described me as "intoxicated" -- ergo, in that particular instance the wine was not an intoxicant. If I had drunk the entire bottle, that would have been a different story. Alcohol is indeed an intoxicant. Now whether someone is intoxicated or not after drinking it, the question is, why are drunkards a big problem and nuisance? How much damage can a drunkard inflict on himself and his family? How can western society stop this problem? In the Old Testament, drinking wine was prohibited, yet in the New Testament, Jesus was even said to turn water into wine. These inconsistencies in the Bible perhaps gave rise to the contradictions that is now apparent in Christianity. I quote this words from one of my favourite website - http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/jesus_broke_the_law.htm Islam, the Kingdom of God, forbids the consumption of alcohol, and purges the society from all social evils. Alcoholic drinks are the only poison that is licensed in many countries. However, Islam took a clear attitude towards alcoholic drinks more than 1400 years ago. Islam prohibits such drinks. Any drink that causes drunkenness is prohibited in Islam regardless of the matter it is made from and regardless of the quantity. According to Islam, if too much of a drink causes drunkenness, then any small quantity of this drink is prohibited, because all alcoholics start with small quantities, and then they become the slaves of alcohol. (Muhammad Ali Alkhuli, The Need For Islam, First Edition 1981, p. 7)
	Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
	IP Logged

Angel Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6626	Posted: 23 June 2008 at 7:55am
	If someone is an alcoholic then that person has deeper issues, not because one starts with small amounts.
	[IMG]http://www.mysmilie.de/smilies/engel/img/003.gif" />~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
	IP Logged

Sign*Reader Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3352	Posted: 23 June 2008 at 4:06pm
	*Originally posted by Angel* If someone is an alcoholic then that person has deeper issues, not because one starts with small amounts. LOL I know Nur Ilahi is wasting his time and energies anyways but the Facts are: Alcohol-related motor vehicle crashes kill someone every 31 minutes and non fatally injure someone every two minutes! (NHTSA06). 16,885 deaths in the U.S. More than half of the 414 child passengers ages 14 and younger who died in alcohol-related crashes during 2005 were riding with the drinking drive 48 children age 14 years and younger who were killed as pedestrians or pedal cyclists were struck by impaired drivers Each year, alcohol-related crashes in the United States cost about $51 billion The drivers all start with a small amount and then they have more of that small amount and then they just become a statistic themselves! I have no issue with the numbers but it takes our tax dollars to cleanup the mess and injuries on our loved ones -who never touched the booze- they leave behind! Edited by Sign*Reader - 23 June 2008 at 4:53pm
	Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
	IP Logged