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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: ADEENUL ‘AQL – RELIGION IS INTELLECT . Post Reply Post New Topic
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Merigen
 
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Quote Merigen Replybullet Posted: 19 June 2008 at 8:00pm
Hi Hasan,
 
You talked about covered-up or dressed up woman getting more attention than one in the skirt.
You are right in that, but we have to see here what kind of attention we are talking about.  A woman walking by with cloths that expose her form and beauty and show her body and skin catches a strange man's attention in majority of cases for what? I don't think for her intellegent mind or her language or what she does for a living rather for one: her body and beyond!   
 
Lol!  We are talking about what men perceive.  Tell me - whatever woman you look at, whether covered up or not, you are thinking about her intellect just as she is strolling along??  You can't determine the  intellect of a person unless you speak to them.  We are all guilty of making judgements about what we see but in the end that just isn't fair. 
 
I have to ask, if all these supposed temptations have presented themselves to you, why did you pick the US to live in anyway?  That may be unfair however as you may of come here as a child. 
 
Now on the other hand, as you talked about, a woman passing by, covered head to toe grabes attention too and more so today. Is it the same attention? No, and that is the point. That woman is not giving the man the oppertunity to see her form, shape of her beautiful body and skin, covered, protected from those looks and thoughts. 
 
Sorry, men are going to be curious no matter what. Look at youWink - in the wording in the above - That woman is not giving the man the opportunity to see her form, shape of her beautiful body and skin...
I'm just giving you a bad time.  Take care and have a good weekend!
 
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Quote Merigen Replybullet Posted: 19 June 2008 at 8:02pm
Hi Angel,
 
I think we are getting side tracked Wink 
 
Sorry, that was me!
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 19 June 2008 at 9:22pm
God's capacity for love or hate may be beyond our understanding, but we have to assume that the feeling is essentially the same for Him as for us.  If we can't trust the meaning of ordinary words, we might as well toss the entire Quran in the trash.
 
You are mentioning 'faith' and I do have faith but I do not have faith in the meaning of 'certain' words. Saying God is love is a faith based belief based upon doctrinal beliefs about God. Although it may be true we cannot risk limiting God according to our definitions of what we think God is. Although its inevitable as humans that we attribute love and anger to God these are physical descriptions of God's 'emotion.'


 
 
 
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Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 20 June 2008 at 10:43pm
To Ron

God's capacity for love or hate may be beyond our understanding,

 
If we cannot define the word ‘Love’ from God, how could we define His appearance like what is being portrayed by Christianity in deifying Jesus as God?  Indeed. in Islamic Tasawwuf, Love of God is -
 
Mahabbah (love) means fondness, tender and kind feelings, and inclination. When love affects and invades all feelings of man, it is called passion and when it gets so deep and irresistible as to burn with the desire of union, it is called fervor and enthusiasm. Love has been defined by the sufis as the relation of the heart with the Truly Beloved One or the irresistible desire felt for Him, or trying to comply with His desires or Commandments in all one’s acts and thoughts, or being enraptured and intoxicated without ‘sobriety’ until the time of union. All these definitions can be summed up as ‘standing’ in the Presence of God and being freed from all transient relationships and worries.

 

Perhaps to you, it sounds alien, but this is the deeper spiritual concept of Love towards God Almighty – The Creator of the Whole Universe. As for hate, in a Hadis Qudsi, He said – My Mercy prevails over my Wrath”  Allah assures us that whoever commits a sin will be forgiven if he repents and ceases this act, where He says what means: {Your Lord hath inscribed for Himself (the rule of) mercy: verily, if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented, and amend (his conduct), lo! He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful} (Al-An`am 6:54).

 

 but we have to assume that the feeling is essentially the same for Him as for us. 

 

Not at all, Our love of God is still nothing compared to His love. Most of the times, our love for Him, is for something in return, be it Jannah (Paradise) or fear of Jahannam (Hell). It is the love of a barter trader – I give you something in return for yours. How could we ‘make business’ with God AlMighty when the assets that we need for the ‘business’ are all from Him?. For example, the air that we breathe, the food that we eat, the water that we drink and most important of all, the Ruh or Soul that He lent to us. God do not need anything from us. He is AL-QAYYÛM The Self-Existing by Whom all subsist. ‘

 

If we can't trust the meaning of ordinary words, we might as well toss the entire Quran in the trash.

 

Even though the Bible is not a word of God, Muslims will not reach to that level of insolence as to toss the Bible into the trash.

 

As to drinking alcohol, there are more harm than good. God Almighty in passing this law, is trying to protect the weak from the strong. Most of the times the drinker is the men, and the ones being abused are the women and children. Furthermore, alcohol destroys the brain and only st**id people indulge in this st**id act.

Take this analogy, we use safety belts while driving. Why is this so? Because the advantages are more than the disadvantages. Using a seat belt is now considered a law in some countries.

 

 How can we know that the Quran contains the truth without using our conscience and our intellect?   Perhaps you will never know if you have never open The Quran and reading it with an open mind.

 

 Indeed, how can we know anything without relying on our own hearts and our own brains?  That is what I mean by my signature.

 

God Almighty created each and everyone of us equal and fair. He created the souls with the ability to llive, see, hear, converse, will, power and knowledge. All these are in us. God AlMighty says in the Quran -

 

By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it; and its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right. (91:7-8) 

 

We showed him the right and wrong path. It is now up to him to be grateful or ungrateful. (76:3)  

 

Have We not made for him a pair of eyes? A tongue, and a pair of lips? And shown him the two paths (of good and evil)? (90: 8-10) 

 

So set thou thy face steadily and truly to the Faith; (Establish) Allah’s handiwork according to the pattern on which He has made mankind: no change (let there be) in the work (wrought) by Allah: that is the standard religion; but most among mankind understand not. (30:30) 

 

In fact, he himself is a witness upon his own self however much he may put up excuses. (75:14-15)  

 

So Ron, it is all up to us to make full use God’s gift to find the Truth.

 



Edited by Nur_Ilahi - 20 June 2008 at 10:46pm
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 21 June 2008 at 10:34am
I want to piggie back off Merigen's point for a minute.
 
We forget that women are creatures too. So many times we look at preventitive measures women can take but what about men? Men can walk around with their shirts off around women on the beaches and women stare. You don't even have to be half naked to get these looks. I can say in California I get this all the time. It's flattering but curious as well because both Muslim and non-Muslim reactions are the same! So my point is humans are humans it doesn't matter.
 
I think even in countries where women are fully covered (See: Central Asian, Middle Eastern countries) I think men rather than depend on their occipital faculties, begin to become more curious mentally which can even be worse than looking visually.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 21 June 2008 at 7:07pm

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Not at all, Our love of God is still nothing compared to His love. Most of the times, our love for Him, is for something in return, be it Jannah (Paradise) or fear of Jahannam (Hell). It is the love of a barter trader -- I give you something in return for yours.

I hope you're speaking only for yourself and not for Muslims in general.   I think God would be offended by such a cynical and conditional form of "love".

For myself, love of God is identical with love of His creation.  There's no barter involved -- I just think this world is a marvelous, fascinating place, and I'm equally impressed whether it came together by sheer accident, by evolution, or under some guiding intelligence.  If the Intelligent Designer ever chooses to reveal himself/themselves to me, I'll certainly express my appreciation and admiration for his/their work, with no strings attached.

As to drinking alcohol, there are more harm than good. God Almighty in passing this law, is trying to protect the weak from the strong. Most of the times the drinker is the men, and the ones being abused are the women and children. Furthermore, alcohol destroys the brain and only st**id people indulge in this st**id act.

Indeed, excessive consumption of alcohol does a great deal of harm.  However, if "religion is intellect", my intellect tells me that moderate consumption of alcohol is not harmful and probably beneficial to most people, as numerous studies have shown:

Moderate drinkers tend to have better health and live longer than those who are either abstainers or heavy drinkers. In addition to having fewer heart attacks and strokes, moderate consumers of alcoholic beverages (beer, wine or distilled spirits or liquor) are generally less likely to suffer hypertension or high blood pressure, peripheral artery disease, Alzheimer's disease and the common cold. Sensible drinking also appears to be beneficial in reducing or preventing diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, bone fractures and osteoporosis, kidney stones, digestive ailments, stress and depression, poor cognition and memory, Parkinson's disease, hepatitis A, pancreatic cancer, macular degeneration (a major cause of blindness), angina pectoris, duodenal ulcer, erectile dysfunction, hearing loss, gallstones, liver disease and poor physical condition in elderly.
 
If the Quran were to say otherwise, my intellect would consider that to be evidence that the Quran is not from God.  However, I believe what the Quran actually says is that "intoxicants" are harmful, and that is true.  No one should use alcohol or any other substance as an intoxicant.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Merigen Replybullet Posted: 21 June 2008 at 7:54pm
Nur,
 
If you sincerely wants to know more
 
I asked you those questions because I prefer a personal opinion. 
 
Really I sort of feel sorry for you.  You have taken so many thing of this world and discarded them as a waste of time when in reality, as Ron Webb said - they are a gift.
 
Have you ever played with a puppy or a dog?  They are wonderful; indeed one of the most loyal and loving creatures on earth.  They are the epitome of unconditional love.
 
Music can be moving and spiritual.  If it makes you forget your zikr, perhaps you just have a short attention span.
 
Some great ideas have come from fiction.  Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. 
 
Live theater  and music is exciting and exhilarating.  There's nothing like a live performance.  You can live without  ir but you may be missing something.
 
If you did some of the above as a youth but now you don't, what are the restrictions you've placed on your children?
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 21 June 2008 at 10:12pm
>>my intellect tells me that moderate consumption of alcohol is not harmful<<
 
This precogito is contingent upon the contributing elements e.g. research showing moderate alcohol consumption being beneficial and such.
 
However, I believe what the Quran actually says is that "intoxicants" are harmful, and that is true.  No one should use alcohol or any other substance as an intoxicant.
 
Ron as smart as you are you above comment does not make "scientific sense." Alcohol is an intoxicant period. Let me say (using southern country voice) that Gud is smart. Gud knows we don't lisen, and Gud knows we don't follow all dem rules. Ya see, he made us in dem bodies of ours an enzyme called Alcohol Dehydrogenese that breaks dem intoxican-whatyamacallits down to a level where it don't hurt no budy (End southern voice).
 
In other words, the body responds to any intoxicants which may be harmful. If Alcohol wasn't an intoxicant the body wouldn't need to break it down to be less harmful. The thing you gotta understand Ron is that your intellect is not some conscious where you know what is good and bad and can make a rational decision. All minds including my own is conditioned based upon learned experiences. your intellect is an accumilation of thoguhts and experiences in which you make judgements based off the best condition. Read more Jean-Paul Sartre...
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