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Message Icon Topic: ADEENUL AQL RELIGION IS INTELLECT . Post Reply Post New Topic
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 18 June 2008 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by Merigen

Hi Hasan,
 
I do agree with you on some of these issues.  In some cases, way to much liberty is taken in dress.  I'm thinking though that the dress is not really the issue but the person themselves.  If they were covered up they'd find other ways to attract attention. 
 
Living in the West as you do you are aware that certain ways of modified dress are very acceptable such as shorts in the hot summer months.  I don't think people pay much attention one way or another.  Here if we see a woman totally covered up from head to toe, the first thing that comes to mind is not that she is being modest but what is she hiding?  In that case we feel she is drawing attention to herself rather than not.
 
I agree there is alot of sexual freedom.  I feel that is something that will have to work itself out as people mature and grow.  I don't think it is as rampant as it once was.  I have many gay friends.  I believe it is determined at birth and not really of the person's choosing.  Two of my friends have been together for twenty years and are very committed to each other.  They work hard, pay taxes and contribute to their community.
 
The separation of sexes in the West is pretty impractical as I said in the other post.  Our lives intersect at all levels.  I really can't imagine just having female friends and this is the norm for us.  All people in my family and group of friends have always had friends - and friends is just what is was - of the opposite sex starting from grade school.
 
I know there is a difference of opinion on these matters.  Thank you for writing to me.
 
Merigen
 
Merigen,
I agree with you on some things while other I would like to make a point. I don't think that anybody is trying to change how we in the West dress or behave. That is a broader debate and I don't have interest to discuss that, at this time.
I am talking about it from an Islamic perspective. Unlike the manmade standards, which are based on trial and error, and are ever changing, in an organized religion like Islam, they are devinely guided. We believe that our maker knows All, and when He gave us some rules we cannot modify them, or change them due to time, race or place. Its like a doctor's prescription given to patient, only doctor can modify it, because he knows what he prescribed and for what.
Those of us who take the oath of following that belief, fulfill that oath through pratice of what it teaches.
I see many people who pay taxes and are good citizen in the eyes of other, yet have multiple sex partners or partners without marriage, have children without marriage. It seems just fine and normal, because we have devloped and evolved into such. Even here is the West the same behavior was considered wrong and bad not too long ago. So its not that the wrong behavior now is Ok, but because we have developed it into a perfactly normal looking one. While in reality its the same, wrong, but because more are doing it so everyone is accepting of it because they themself probably has accepted it and are living it as well, so once a wrong, no longer so.
 
You talked about covered-up or dressed up woman getting more attention than one in the skirt.
You are right in that, but we have to see here what kind of attention we are talking about.  A woman walking by with cloths that expose her form and beauty and show her body and skin catches a strange man's attention in majority of cases for what? I don't think for her intellegent mind or her language or what she does for a living rather for one: her body and beyond! Why a woman's body has this magnetic affect on men, I don't think we need to discuss that here as that's a whole new chapter.  Now on the other hand, as you talked about, a woman passing by, covered head to toe grabes attention too and more so today. Is it the same attention? No, and that is the point. That woman is not giving the man the oppertunity to see her form, shape of her beautiful body and skin, covered, protected from those looks and thoughts. Beacuse she believes that the body given to her from her maker is given in a turst, and she has to care for it, nurture it, protect it as the maker commanded. She gets attention because we have spread rumors about those who dress like her as oppresed or bad people. She may not please those around her, but  she endures it for the pleasure of her Maker, Who's pleasure is more important to her, even if it causes her bad looks looks and comments. To her that is less price to pay, then to displease her maker and be rejected eternally.
I hope I don't sound preachy here, as I only wanted to make clear my understanding on the issue.
Hasan
 
 
 
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 18 June 2008 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Israfil

I don't know if God "loves" music as I take the position of Moses Maimonides in believing that God is beyond our desires adn has left those to us.

I thought Muslims (like Christians) believed in a "personal" God, i.e. a God with attributes similar to our own, and in whose image we were made.  Not so?

I believe all those qualities of a human being should be enjoyed to their fullest extent because that is where we enjoy our humanity however there must also be a balance to that enjoyment.

I can't argue with that, but I wonder how far you would take it.  Should we enjoy alcohol, even in moderation?  Should we enjoy the beauty of the female body, other than that of our own wives?

 
The reason I used quotation marks around "love" is I don't want to attribute the human definition of love to God. I try to maintain this idea that God is beyond our understanding, this means even words we find in our doctrines, even words that glorify God, God is beyond them. What I see as love maybe different for God. God might see love as a man throwing himself off a cliff to commit suicide but for us we call that a serious matter. I consciously try not to attribute anything humanly conceivable to God even if its love. I may think God loves me but I don't know because these are human restrictions on words.
 
Should we enjoy alcohol, even in moderation?  Should we enjoy the beauty of the female body, other than that of our own wives?
 
This depends on the person. If you are a no-Muslim medically there is nothing wrong with drinking wine especially done in moderation as research has shown. However one has to draw the line between indulging in these behaviors and being religious. If a religion strictly prohibits drinking alcohol then the person must avoid it, otherwise to indulge is in that moment to cease being of that faith. You can't transgress religious values and call yourself religious, these are contradictions. You have to understand that there are certain values that we must abide by even if its shown in reality that these "things" won't necessarily harm us. We human don't always have to indulge our senses and its important to know that.
 
As far as enjoying the body of the women again the same rules apply. In reality, like alcohol, as long as the man enjoys the body for aesthetic reasons its fine. Even if he looked at the female body in a perversive way as long as he doesn't harm anyone its completely fine. If you are Muslim you are taught to "hate" what God "hates." But I ask the question: "What is hate to God?" Is it our understanding of hate or his? If its our understanding then we are only restricting the definition of values which inevitably will not make those values divine. But yeah I hope you got my point.
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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 18 June 2008 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by honeto

the manmade standards, which are based on trial and error, and are ever changing
 
When society changes, (and people change all the change), and it grows then rules and some laws need to change. If things stay the same then society stagnates and does not grow. If we don't have trail and error then one does not learn. At the moment my city is trailing a 2am lockout on nightclubs to curb violence usually drunken behaviour, those who are already in the nightclubs can stay. But entry at 2am and after will not be allowed. there's a 3 month trail and the first two weekends have not gone that smoothly but on a whole it seems fine. if successful after 3 mths then it will became law except the casino will be exempt. This is an example of rules needing to change because society and people change. Now I don't want you to come back if such things were not allowed in the first place...I'm not going about that.
 
Now as for the dressing:   
 
Now on the other hand, as you talked about, a woman passing by, covered head to toe grabes attention too and more so today. Is it the same attention? No, and that is the point. That woman is not giving the man the oppertunity to see her form, shape of her beautiful body and skin, covered, protected from those looks and thoughts.
 
In many discussions about this in the past, the attention is and can be the same for someone who is covered up. In the west people are used to bear skin and wearing bikinis at the beach so everyone sees and is used it. It leaves NOTHING for the imagination and there's no mystery to anything either. But when one is covered it leaves something for the imagination and makes one wonder what she look likes under the clothes. Bearing all does not always give attention, men see much all day almost every day so why would they start lusting over a woman who is always in a bikini? 
 
But going to a place where its not the norm, well of course men would lust after and fall head first in the ground because they weren't watching where they were going.
 
   
I only wanted to make clear my understanding on the issue.
 
there's nothing wrong that nor showing islams view but there is a few issues that you need to know also. And everytime I will point that out Wink 
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Nur_Ilahi
 
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Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 19 June 2008 at 7:37am

The law on hijab has a few hikmah or wisdom behind it. Firstly for the individual (the woman), then for the family and then for the society. When a woman covers her body, she is not only doing that for the sake of Allah, but as per normal, the benefits is returned back to her. In doing so, she is respecting her own body. If you want people to respect you, you first of all have to respect yourself. She is guarding herself from the evils of Satan and Nafs (ego/lust/desire/passion). She is also at the same time protecting the man that is looking at her from sins, from rape and fornication.

 

How? That man could be someones son, brother, father, husband, father-in-law, uncle or even a grandfather. And in turn men are required to lower their gaze when they have to communicate with women who is not their mahram. That woman maybe someones daughter, sister, mother, wife, mother-in-law, aunt or even a grandmother.

Islamic law not only benefits the individual, but for the family, society and humankind in general. I would like to quote an ariticle that I read before

The role of woman is at the heart of any culture. Apart from stealing Arab oil, the impending war in the Middle East is about stripping Arabs of their religion and culture, exchanging the burka for a bikini.

I am not an expert on the condition of Muslim women and I love feminine beauty too much to advocate the burka here. But I am defending some of the values that the burka represents for me.

For me, the burka represents a woman's consecration to her husband and family. Only they see her.

It affirms the privacy, exclusivity and importance of the domestic sphere.

The Muslim woman's focus is her home, the "nest" where her children are born and reared. She is the "home" maker, the taproot that sustains the spiritual life of the family, nurturing and training her children, providing refuge and support to her husband.

In contrast, the bikinied American beauty queen struts practically naked in front of millions on TV. A feminist, she belongs to herself. In practice, paradoxically, she is public property. She belongs to no one and everyone. She shops her body to the highest bidder. She is auctioning herself all of the time.

http://www.savethemales.ca/180902.html

Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 19 June 2008 at 7:47am
I think we are getting side tracked Wink 
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Nur_Ilahi
 
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Quote Nur_Ilahi Replybullet Posted: 19 June 2008 at 7:56am
Originally posted by Angel

I think we are getting side tracked Wink 
 
Smile No, not at all.
 
This topic Adeenul 'Aql i= Religion is intellect - s very wide indeed.
 
And we need our intellect to balance the facts that we, especially the Muslims here are, presenting. Star
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 19 June 2008 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by honeto

the manmade standards, which are based on trial and error, and are ever changing
 
When society changes, (and people change all the change), and it grows then rules and some laws need to change. If things stay the same then society stagnates and does not grow. If we don't have trail and error then one does not learn. At the moment my city is trailing a 2am lockout on nightclubs to curb violence usually drunken behaviour, those who are already in the nightclubs can stay. But entry at 2am and after will not be allowed. there's a 3 month trail and the first two weekends have not gone that smoothly but on a whole it seems fine. if successful after 3 mths then it will became law except the casino will be exempt. This is an example of rules needing to change because society and people change. Now I don't want you to come back if such things were not allowed in the first place...I'm not going about that.
 
Now as for the dressing:   
 
Now on the other hand, as you talked about, a woman passing by, covered head to toe grabes attention too and more so today. Is it the same attention? No, and that is the point. That woman is not giving the man the oppertunity to see her form, shape of her beautiful body and skin, covered, protected from those looks and thoughts.
 
In many discussions about this in the past, the attention is and can be the same for someone who is covered up. In the west people are used to bear skin and wearing bikinis at the beach so everyone sees and is used it. It leaves NOTHING for the imagination and there's no mystery to anything either. But when one is covered it leaves something for the imagination and makes one wonder what she look likes under the clothes. Bearing all does not always give attention, men see much all day almost every day so why would they start lusting over a woman who is always in a bikini? 
 
But going to a place where its not the norm, well of course men would lust after and fall head first in the ground because they weren't watching where they were going.
 
   
I only wanted to make clear my understanding on the issue.
 
there's nothing wrong that nor showing islams view but there is a few issues that you need to know also. And everytime I will point that out Wink 

 

 
Angel,
I don't think you can ever get use to what is wrong. I would have believed you if the advertising companies and magazines were not using women and their bare bodies as a tool to sell.
Every week when I go to shopping in the Super Walmart, just before paying I have to go through racks on my back and front full of magazines, who's covers most of the times have one thing in common, beautiful women, almost exposed to the bottom, you tell me why, in the past 70-80 years of exposure have we really not gotten over it, or as you suggest got use to it?
 
Sign of a good social system is that it changes bad behavior with what is good and shapes a better society, and not the other way around.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 19 June 2008 at 1:29pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 19 June 2008 at 5:32pm

Originally posted by Israfil

The reason I used quotation marks around "love" is I don't want to attribute the human definition of love to God. I try to maintain this idea that God is beyond our understanding, this means even words we find in our doctrines, even words that glorify God, God is beyond them. What I see as love maybe different for God.

God's capacity for love or hate may be beyond our understanding, but we have to assume that the feeling is essentially the same for Him as for us.  If we can't trust the meaning of ordinary words, we might as well toss the entire Quran in the trash.

If you are a no-Muslim medically there is nothing wrong with drinking wine especially done in moderation as research has shown. However one has to draw the line between indulging in these behaviors and being religious. If a religion strictly prohibits drinking alcohol then the person must avoid it, otherwise to indulge is in that moment to cease being of that faith. You can't transgress religious values and call yourself religious, these are contradictions. You have to understand that there are certain values that we must abide by even if its shown in reality that these "things" won't necessarily harm us. We human don't always have to indulge our senses and its important to know that.

No, but we do have to listen to our own conscience and our own intellect -- or else, again, we might as well toss the Quran in the trash.  How can we know that the Quran contains the truth without using our conscience and our intellect?  Indeed, how can we know anything without relying on our own hearts and our own brains?  That is what I mean by my signature.
Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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