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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: ADEENUL ‘AQL – RELIGION IS INTELLECT . Post Reply Post New Topic
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 25 September 2008 at 3:21pm
"As I keep saying (and you keep ignoring), I don't claim "proof", because science doesn't work that way.  (If I can't even prove my own existence, how can I possibly prove my evolutionary past?)  But the available evidence (and there's lots of it) fits the theory perfectly.

So what evidence can you offer in support of the God theory?"

If you believe in evolution then you believe at some point man evolved from something else, correct? What does science say that man evolved from? Ape? And before that? At what point did sexual reporduction become necessary? We start with a single cell that divides, etc, eventually becoming man. We know for a fact that man needs to reproduce sexually, so at what point did that become necessary in the evolutionary chain? When the subspecies, whatever it was, evolved into the first manlike creature, was there just one? Was there a sudden simultaneous evolving that allowed this creature to reproduce? I don't really see how that could be since evolution took so long and natural selection, taking millions of years, probably could never account for simultaneous evolving of more than one of each species at a time, so what kept the newly evolved man from dying out? Did they reproduce some other way?
 
The fossils that have been found could all be primates for all we know.
 
What I do know is that science has no way of explaining modern man's emergence from the subspecies hominids. Modern man with his rationalising abilities just was. All of the fossil evidence has yet to account for the missing link, the subspecies that became man. Modern man appeared around 160,000 years ago and science cannot explain how.
They can show you a bunch of bones and say this was the creature that was man before, and now they have bones and say this is modern man, but where he came from and how that transformation occurred they have not a clue.
 
Probably because God created man, and that would explain where he came from and how he got here.
 
 
 
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 25 September 2008 at 3:52pm
"We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?  (The Noble Quran, 21:30)"
 
 
And every living thing is made primarily of water. That explains the similarity in our DNA with everything on this planet, including plants.
 
This is all explained in the Quran and there is no doubt that God created man and everything else that exists. There is NO mention of man evolving in the Quran, God CREATED mankind as we are:
 
Al-Hijr (The Rocky Tract)

15:26 We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;

Suad

38:71 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay:

Suad

38:75 ((Allah)) said: "O Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?" (I particularly like this Ayat.)

 
Al-Hajj (The Pilgrimage)

22:5 O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).

 
 
Al Baqara:

2:29 It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.


2:30 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."


2:31 And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the nature of these if ye are right."

Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)

3:59 The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

Al-A'raf (The Heights)

7:11 It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who bow down.

An-Nisa (The Women)

4:1 O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;-

Al-An'am (The Cattle)

6:2 He it is created you from clay, and then decreed a stated term (for you). And there is in His presence another determined term; yet ye doubt within yourselves!

Al-A'raf (The Heights)

7:189 It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her (in love). When they are united, she bears a light burden and carries it about (unnoticed). When she grows heavy, they both pray to Allah their Lord, (saying): "If Thou givest us a goodly child, we vow we shall (ever) be grateful."

As-Sajdah (The Prostration)

32:7 He Who has made everything which He has created most good: He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay,

Ta-Ha

20:50 He said: "Our Lord is He Who gave to each (created) thing its form and nature, and further, gave (it) guidance."



Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 25 September 2008 at 3:57pm
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 25 September 2008 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

If you believe in evolution then you believe at some point man evolved from something else, correct?
Absolutely not.  I just finished saying, "there's no point at which you can say, 'this is the moment when "man" begins'". 
 
What does science say that man evolved from?
How can I tell you what came before man if you can't tell me what you mean by "man"? 
 
...
Okay, I've read the rest of your questions and I can see you have a basic misunderstanding of what evolution is all about.  Above all it is a gradual process.  Theories of "punctuated equilibrium" aside, the basic model is one of slow, continuous change. 
 
Let's try an analogy.  There is no "first" man, any more than there is no "first" English speaker.  You might ask how the English language could have evolved from earlier Germanic and other languages.  Who would the "first" English speaker have conversed with?  Was there a sudden simultaneous evolving of multiple speakers?
 
Of course not.  With each generation, the language shifts just a tiny bit -- a few words, a slight change in pronunciation here and there.  Each generation can still easily converse with several preceding and following generations.  I can read Shakespeare without to much difficulty, although I have difficulty with quite a few of the words.  I can even battle my way through Chaucer if I use an edition with lots of footnotes.
 
Chaucer could probably struggle to make himself understood to a modern English speaker.  On the other hand, he could probably fairly speak easily with an even earlier speaker of the ancient Germanic language which would be utterly foreign to you and me.
 
In the same way, a hominid from 50,000 years ago might not be too much different from "modern" man, either morphologically or genetically.  If the ability to reproduce sexually is the test of distinct species, he probably could have children with modern women, though perhaps less reliably than with a modern couple.  (Obviously I don't really know whether they could or not, nor perhaps does anybody; I'm just trying to illustrate the principle here.)  So that would mean they are both "men" (i.e. human), right?
 
A hominid from 100,000 years ago mated with a modern human might occasionally conceive, but rarely.  So are they the same species?  And 150,000 years back?  Let's assume they would be infertile, so that would make them "non-man".  On the other hand, he would probably have good success mated with a hominid from 200,000 years ago, as well as from 100,000 years ago, and maybe even the 50,000 year old "man".  That's why I keep asking, what do you mean by "man"?  I don't think there is a precise definition.
 
Probably because God created man, and that would explain where he came from and how he got here. 
Ah yes, the God theory.  Okay, how did God create man, and what is your evidence for this?  Just saying "God" doesn't explain anything at all.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 25 September 2008 at 7:18pm
This is the reason why I insult your 'intelligence':
 
>>Instead of addressing your assertions that evolution is fact and that humans did evolve from neanderthal, and that the Africa theory is fact when it is one theory, and that we share 99-98% DNA with apes, which has also been found incorrect, you choose to attack my intelligence.<<
 
Obviously you are saying I believed in all of these things (two of which are contradictory) and then whine about me insulting your intelligence. First, I never said humans came from Neaderthals for the last time I said the human ancestor Homo Erectus living in Africa migrated outward, eventually becoming the neaderthal (according to some studies) and some stayed in the northern most part of Africa. As I have said many times science has shown according to some fossil records that humans are most likely descendants from the Homo Erectus not only because of posture because of their usage of tools etc and other findings. Like I said before you probably got confused on my wording of saying "humans migrated outward from Africa" when instead I should have used the word hominids. As far as the DNA with Chimps are concerned you are right, it was 95% "Humans and chimps can have 95% or >98.5% similar DNA depending on which nucleotides are counted and which are excluded." In that I will give you.
 
"I may not be intelligent, or as intelligent as you believe yourself to be. I am not a scientist, as you also claim to be. But I would like to point out that so far in this discussion you have been wrong about almost every assertion you have made, then backtracked as you so often do when shown to be wrong, claiming you didn't state it, that's not what you meant, etc..."
 
Can you point out exactly where I was wrong besides your misunderstanding of  human ancestral origin and theDNA of Chimps and Humans? Do I think yuo are an intelligent human being? Sure. do I think you have good opinions? Sure. Do I think you know science? No. In fact like I said as a "lay person" picking and choosing what works for you is not a good way to solidify your opinion. I have not backtracked at anything I keep having to restate myself due to your inability to actually read my entire post. For instance when I said human ancestors are the Homo Erectus you keep saying: "Neanderthals are not our ancestors."
It seems like I'm backtracking because i keep having to repeat myself to get it through your head that I did not say Neanderthals were our ancestors.
 
"Instead of just admitting that you don't know what you are talking about, you try to make me look st**id?"
 
Frankly, I'm tired of going back and forth with you. I've posted data. I've explained data and all you can do is read Wikipedia and pretend you act like you know what the hell you're saying. It becomes frustrated for me because you are claiming to know what you are talking about. Ron (being a complete stranger to you and I) has pointed this out. You have a misunderstanding about genetics, evolution, and fossils altogether. Am I criticizing your intelligence in this particular category? Yes, not to my own benefit because I don't get any benefit out of degrading someone, I just get frustrated. My frustration comes when people are lazy enough to go on Wikipedia and get the source, which I might add can be edited by anyone from my understanding. Your other sources are decent, however backtracking is not the issue. The issue here is me having to repeat myself. Instead of me doing that why do you claim that you don't know what Evolution really means or what the difference between man and hominids are?
 
 
"Gee, I beat you to it. May not have as many fancy words, but the information is the same. And I posted it BEFORE your enlightening PDF, so are you copying me? Backtrack, backtrack....."
 
 
Sigh, really, ther eis no hope for you. I posted tht because I again, having to defend my position regarding your post stating I said humans are neanderthals was incorrect, thus me posting the PDF file. The file has nothing to do with fancy words it has everything to do with how they came up with their findings. For God's sakes.
 
"Instead of just admitting that you don't know what you are talking about, you try to make me look st**id?  Well, if you are indeed a scientist and you mistate your evidence or backtrack on findings as often as you do here I am appalled."
 
I'm apalled that you pretend you know anything about gene morphology and evolution by using Wikipedia. It's not even a credible source for research. Anyway, enough of this back and forth....seriously...... As far as my credentials are concerned I personally take offense because some of us put time and effort in research whether it is in the field of genetics or neroscience and the fact that you actually "think" you know what you're talking about is funny. Science has many divisions on theories you have post one of the many yet you accept it as truth because its WHAT YOU BELIEVE.....
 
"And every living thing is made primarily of water. That explains the similarity in our DNA with everything on this planet, including plants.
 
This is all explained in the Quran and there is no doubt that God created man and everything else that exists. There is NO mention of man evolving in the Quran, God CREATED mankind as we are"
 
 
another "Sigh" this is to show to reject and contradict your assertion when you said "YOU DON'T BELIEVE LIFE CAME FROM A SINGLE CELLED ORGANISM" what I did was to show very briefly that single celled organisms habitats is in water and most likely all of life was in this big giant soup I'm sure you heard the 'Soup theory.' These living organisms being billions of years old evolved. If God made all of life from water then obviously there was a process in this formation of life. God may have said 'Be' and it is but how do we know that this creation was instantaneous? For all we know when God said 'BE' it could have taken several billion years.
 

He is God, the Creator, the Evolver, the Bestower of Forms (or Colors). To Him belong the Most Beautiful Names: whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare His Praises and Glory: and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. (59:22-24).

 
Oh, by the way. If you think my attitude is bad try asking questions in Graduate School. Some of the professors can be harsh and will call you st**id without hesitation. 
 
 
 


Edited by Israfil - 25 September 2008 at 10:03pm
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