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PattyaMainer
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 09 January 2009 at 9:46am
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

No, you are wrong, Robin.  With all due respect, you, like many other non-Catholics incorrectly believe we pray to saints and the Holy Mother of God.  That is NOT SO.  We ask their help for many problems/situations in life.  It is the same as asking a dear friend or relative to "please pray for me."  Nothing more, nothing less.  Mary is in Heaven, very close to our Lord, as are the saints.  We believe they are so close to God, and if we ask them to pray for us too, we are greatly increasing our hope of having our problems, whatever they may be, solved.  You should read a good Catechism because you are woefully lacking in your knowledge of what true, devoted Catholics really believe.  This is not uncommon, but it is very sad!  I mean no disrespect or harshness toward you....but I must speak up when I see my religion being misrepresented.  I trust you understand.

God's Peace,

Patty

 
I do not think I am wrong as my wife and her family were cathloics before she became a Christian so I think I know I am talking about!
 
Mary is the cataechism:-
 
 
The 'Catechism of the Catholic Church' p.221
"When the course of her (Mary) earthly life was finished, [she] was taken body and soul into heavenly glory, and was exulted by the Lord as Queen over all things".

Ishtar is symbolised

WORSHIPPERS FELL TO THE WORSHIP OF ISHTAR

Judges 10:6 ; 2 Kings 23:13:- Ishtar is called in the Bible ASTORETH, she was symbolised by a Cow. King Reoboam's introduction of Calf worship in Israel was a great sin in Jehovah's eyes, 1 Kings 12:28-30. (it-1 p. 975)

Jerimiah 7:18 " Queen of the Heavens," (Just like mary); 2 Kings 23:5 "Signs of the Zodiac.

Jehovah's condemnation of Astoreth/Ishtar & Astrology, King Josiah cleans out false worship.

The star VENUS, which is the ruling planet of the Zodiac sign Taurus the Bull. (Venus=Ishtar, Myths of Babylon & Assyria by D.A.Mac Kenzie p.?) The whole Zodiac belt was called The Girdle Of Ishtar (Women's Mysteries by Harding p.163)

This to is Idol worship.

 

 
I object to your sentence above stating your wife was a Catholic before she became a Christian. lolol  Catholics were the first Christians and still are very devout Christians of the Catholic Church.
 
Only in the OT did people worship idols, as far as what you are talking about.  They were not Christians, they were pagans.  In the NT after the coming of Jesus that was done away with. 
 
With all due respect, Robin, for the seventh time, no, Catholics do not worship idols, Mary included.  You are most wrong on this issue.  I have many times explained to you that we honor and revere her as the Mother of Jesus and we ask her to pray for us.  
 
It is very important, I believe, that all people of all religions, faiths, etc., have and show respect for those of a different faith.  I could hammer you religion to death if I wanted to......but why would I do such a thing?  I believe you are sincere in what you believe, just as I believe Muslims are sincere.  I am not here to "change you" or to "make you see the light."  I am here to respectfully discuss our religions and why we believe what we do.  I hope you are here for the same reasons.  I have welcomed many JW's into my home, and we have had some very respectful discussions.  I did not change their mind, nor vice versa....but that was not my reason for inviting them into my home in the first place.  I did so out of respect and because I am sure Jesus Christ would expect me to do so out of brotherly love (love thy neighbor.)
 
Have a good day, Robin.
 
Patty
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 18 January 2009 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer



Hasan,
 
Now you have talked to me long enough to know that I stand behind all my statements regarding my beliefs, my faith.  Here is one Scripture verse from I John 5-7:
 
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."


 Response to PattyaMainer

 Here is response to 1 John 57 by BiblicalUnitarian:
 http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=147


Originally posted by PattyaMainer

And in Second Corinthians 13:14, I offer you this verse, Hasan:
 
 
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
 
Here we have the grace of the Son, the love of the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit.  Are these three different God's? Are love, grace, and communion three different items? No. Love, grace, and communion are one element in three stages: love is the source, grace is the expression of love, and communion is the transmission of this love in grace. Likewise, Father God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one God expressed in three Persons: Father God is the source, Christ is the expression of God, and the Holy Spirit is the transmission bringing God in Christ into man. So these are two verses which I stand firmly by in my belief of the Holy Trinity......ONE GOD in three stages.
 
God's Peace,
Patty
 
 


 Here is response to 2 Cor.13:14 by BiblicalUnitarian:
 http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=122
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2009 at 9:56am
Patty,
you wrote:
"I realize (and understand why) Muslims are quite intimidated and frightened by this verse in I John.  I will offer this explanation to you:"
 
"Keep dreaming baby"
pardon me Patty, I don't rally use this king of language, but I have lived so long here I could not resist to use this slang I hear often.
Yes, its just in your imagination, a Muslim is never intimidated or frightened by any part of the Bible, if they know the Bible.
After knowing the Bible, a book I repect as sacred to many but full of errors and contradcitions for me and others. How can one be afraid of such a thing.
The Bible has multiple stands on who and what is God.
The Bible contradicts how many sons God has, or who is the only son.
The Bible contradicts how salvation is achieved.
There are many other issues but the obove three are the most important ones, and on all three of them the Bible contradcits.
I understand, how one would be scared to believe in it, but I cannot understand how one would be scared to not believe in it. I leave that judgement to the reader.
 
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 22 January 2009 at 10:06am
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 22 January 2009 at 10:08am
Originally posted by honeto

Patty,
you wrote:
"I realize (and understand why) Muslims are quite intimidated and frightened by this verse in I John.  I will offer this explanation to you:"
 
"Keep dreaming baby"
pardon me Patty, I don't rally use this king of language, but I have lived so long here I could not resist to use this slang I hear often.
Yes, its just in your imagination, a Muslim, one who know and serves the One and Only God, is never intimidated or frightened by any part of the Bible, if they know the Bible.
After knowing the Bible, a book I repect as sacred to many but full of errors and contradcitions for me and others. How can one be afraid of such a thing.
The Bible has multiple stands on who and what is God.
The Bible contradicts how many sons God has, or who is the only son.
The Bible contradicts how salvation is achieved.
There are many other issues but the obove three are the most important ones, and on all three of them the Bible contradcits.
I understand, how one would be scared to believe in it, but I cannot understand how one would be scared to not believe in it. I leave that judgement to the reader.
 
 
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote OneWay Replybullet Posted: 28 January 2009 at 8:26am
robin
 
Roman Catholics follow tradition they do not follow the bible.  Majority of catholics, including priest do not know the bilbe. 
 
The worship of Jesus is not idolatry.  Jesus is God!
 
I am a bible beleiving christian. 
 
Either you beleive the bible or you don't.
 
The bible is clear Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God, God the Father is God, but the bible says there is only one God. 
 
Therefore God the Father, God the Son and God The  Holy Spirit are one.
 
No one can explain God.  If you could understand God then you would be God.
 
In a billion year we will never comprehend God.  So if you think you can explain God, you are a fool.
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 29 January 2009 at 6:15am
Originally posted by OneWay

robin
 
Roman Catholics follow tradition they do not follow the bible.  Majority of catholics, including priest do not know the bilbe. 
 
The worship of Jesus is not idolatry.  Jesus is God!
 
I am a bible beleiving christian. 
 
Either you beleive the bible or you don't.
 
The bible is clear Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God, God the Father is God, but the bible says there is only one God. 
 
Therefore God the Father, God the Son and God The  Holy Spirit are one.
 
No one can explain God.  If you could understand God then you would be God.
 
In a billion year we will never comprehend God.  So if you think you can explain God, you are a fool.
 
My Dear One Way,
 
You are another perfect example of one who has been told so many "myths" about the Roman Catholic Church, and devout Catholics.  I pity your ignorance, as it is very widespread among Protestants and is not completely your fault.  Although it would serve you well to research and learn what you are saying before spreading more deceptions.  Here is what Catholics truly believe....and yes, it is a bit lengthy.  It may take five or ten minutes to read it, but if you want to be truthful and knowledgeable in your posts which reach virtually every country in the world, I would think that you, as a Christian, would take the time to read and absorb it.
 

Do Catholics follow the Bible?

Catholics have used the Scriptures for their faith for as long as they have existed. The Bible has not always existed in its current form. In fact, it was not put together as a compiled work until well into the 4th century!

However, some people, particularly non-Catholics, feel that the Bible is the only thing that should guide their Christian faith even though the Christian faith existed before the Scriptures and was originally transmitted orally and through tradition.

Catholics believe that the Bible was written by God and by human authors. Here's a quote from the NAB footnotes on 2 Timothy 3:16-17:

"In this classic reference to inspiration, God is its principal author, with the writer as the human collaborator. Thus the scriptures are the word of God in human language. See also 2 Peter 1:20-21."

Scripture alone?

Sola Scriptura simply means "Scripture (or Bible) alone." It was one of the battlecries of the Reformation. It's not something evil, it's just something not completely correct. Today, "Bible alone" is usually meant that the Bible, all 66 books (in the non-Catholic Bibles), is the be-all, end-all, rule of faith for all Christian doctrine and practice.

It is a composite of holy Scripture that all doctrines of Christianity should be compared against. If a matter of faith or morals is anti-Biblical then that is a bad sign.

Unfortunately, Sola Scriptura or Bible alone is nowhere to be found in the Bible! If this were to be true, according to Sola Scriptura, then this statement would have to appear somewhere in the Bible in one form or another implicit or explicit. In fact it is anti-Biblical!

A common claim in support of Sola Scriptura is the reference of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 which says:

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

Let's break that down.

  1. All scripture is inspired by God
    • We know that God's truth stands the test of time and all subsequent Scripture must be inspired by God as well. But, the important thing to keep in mind is that this verse does not say that Scripture is the only thing inspired by God.
  2. All scripture...is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction...(and the list goes on).
    • I emphasized the word "useful" for a reason. Notice how it says "useful" and not something like "the only thing" or "the only means". In other words, scripture is helpful, it is a resource, an aid (add your own synonym here). This verse, nor the word "useful", nor its synonyms imply that it is the only rule of faith. It says that it is something useful for one's faith.
  3. ...so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
    • Meaning that Scripture is a good tool for learning to live out the Gospel.

By carefully studying this verse it is clear to see that it does not say that the Bible alone is our sole rule of faith. If one is able to produce other Biblical evidence that the Bible implicitly or explicitly says that it is the sole rule of faith please contact me.

Then what is our guiding principle?

So, what does the Bible say is the rule of faith or the foundation of truth?

Not one single thing is our guiding principle or rule of faith; it is a combination of what we have done in the past and what was handed on to us (called Tradition) and the Bible. In order to find out what the foundation of truth is we only need to go back a few pages to 1 Timothy 3:15:

"But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

1 Timothy 3:15 explains that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. "The pillar and foundation of truth" refers only to "the church" in that sentence. Some will contest that it depends on one's definition of "church." That is a valid argument, but is why it works under any of the accepted definitions of church.

One argument against is that "the church is not a building, it is just the believers." Well, it is correct, but only in a particular sense. No, the church is not just a building and the Catholic Church clearly recognizes that. In fact there is no one, single Catholic church building, it is an amalgam churches worldwide that recognize appointed authorities just like in the time of the apostles!

Jesus appointed specific people, 12 to be exact, to carry out his mission. Even though Jesus has many, many followers, he called out 12 specific indivuduals to guide his flock. Even in Jesus' time there was a structured church. In fact the church could not exist if Jesus had not been around to start it himself and he did, but he left it in the hands of Peter (Mt 16:13-19).

So, we see that there was a church, with a specific structure of leaders that were called by God to lead the church. This is the Catholic definition of church.

Now, if the church is founded upon the leaders then it is safe to say that "the church" can also mean "the leaders" or "the one's with teaching authority" called the Magisterium.

Another way of looking at it is that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Magisterium, since they are the ones with the teaching authority (Mt 16:19, 18:18) commisioned by Jesus Christ himself. Jesus handed us the church, not the Bible or Scripture.

The Bible is not the sole rule of faith, but it is the people called and commissioned by God and the holy Scriptures along with our Tradition (capital "T"). Neither is separate or greater from the other since both were given to us from God.

Using the Bible to authenticate the Bible

One might ask, "why does this guy quote the Bible when trying to prove the authenticity of the Bible?" Good question! Circular logic will not work. If I say that I am Miss America does that mean I am because I said so? No! I would need another recoginized authority or governing body to declare that I am such before it can be recognized by others.

In other words, something outside the Bible has to verify the sacredness of the Scriptures. What was that sanctioned body? The Catholic Church, the one started by Jesus Christ, the one whose leaders can trace their office back to one of the 12 Apostles. The only reason that any Christian today has reverance for the Bible is because the Catholic Church has said that the books contained therein are sacred Scripture.

Just the simple fact that we revere Scripture and follow what is contained within is a Tradition of the Catholic Church. Some people follow Catholic teachings and don't even know it!

"Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ," said St. Jerome.

 

In addition the the above information regarding Catholics studying the Bible, I would like to add the following.  I would doubt that you have ever attended a mass, but let me assure you that the Bible is read three times during the mass.  There are two scripture readings, and one reading by the priest from one of the Holy Gospels.  He then offers his sermon, called a Homily, which is usually related to what he has just read in the Gospel.  Oh, Catholics have regular bible studies in each others home and in "Sunday School" rooms in the church.  We meditate and pray over the Bible verses we are studying....and most of the time the Bible Study is LED BY OUR PRIEST!!!!!! 

I thought you might also like to know that Catholic priests attend college and then seminary for over 12 years before they are ordained into the priesthood.  They must know every word of the Bible.  You really need to hold your tongue until you know what you are speaking about.  I have many friends who are Protestant ministers (I am not prejudiced toward anyone's religion...I only am disgusted by ignorance), and these ministers have, at the most, 4 years of post high school education in theology.  This is not to put them down in any manner, they are for the most part fine Christian preachers, but to make an honest comparison in the matter of knowledge of scriptures and theology, since you made the comment that Catholic priests do not know or follow Holy Scripture.  You have quite obviously never known a priest or attended a mass.  I have gone to every church to observe first hand what transpires, including Jewish temples.  I would not want to spew lies or inaccuracies when speaking about any religion, and I am very careful not to do so.  If I have offended anyone's religion here, I humbly apologize.
 
May God Grant You Wisdom,
Patty


Edited by PattyaMainer - 29 January 2009 at 6:45am
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 03 February 2009 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by OneWay

robin
 
Roman Catholics follow tradition they do not follow the bible.  Majority of catholics, including priest do not know the bilbe. 
 
The worship of Jesus is not idolatry.  Jesus is God!
 
I am a bible beleiving christian. 
 
Either you beleive the bible or you don't.
 
The bible is clear Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God, God the Father is God, but the bible says there is only one God. 
 
Therefore God the Father, God the Son and God The  Holy Spirit are one.
 
No one can explain God.  If you could understand God then you would be God.
 
In a billion year we will never comprehend God.  So if you think you can explain God, you are a fool.
 
True that we can never understand all about God based on our limitations. But should we ignore facts, logic and reasoning? I don't think so.
God is One, and what else can describe it better than that?
 
You say Bible says that Jesus is God, but what about when the same Bible quotes Jesus himself declare that he has a God, or that God is greater than him.
Why we not consider this quote as serious as the other ones? or not accept the facts?
Here are a few quotes from the Bible stating Jesus to be God's servant, and Jesus having a God. We all agree that God does not have a God, but we know that according to the Bible Jesus has a God. 
 

Acts 3:13 "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Ephesians 1:17"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ."
 
John 20:17 ".....but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
 
John 14:28 "...for my Father is greater than I."
 
For my friends that insist that Jesus was God on earth, these quotes are more than enough proof and my response from their trusted source (apart from logic and reasoning and Quran's correction) that he was not god, in fact he has a God like all of us to whom he served as a humble servant.
Hasan
 
 
 
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 08 February 2009 at 8:56am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by OneWay

robin
 
Roman Catholics follow tradition they do not follow the bible.  Majority of catholics, including priest do not know the bilbe. 
 
The worship of Jesus is not idolatry.  Jesus is God!
 
I am a bible beleiving christian. 
 
Either you beleive the bible or you don't.
 
The bible is clear Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God, God the Father is God, but the bible says there is only one God. 
 
Therefore God the Father, God the Son and God The  Holy Spirit are one.
 
No one can explain God.  If you could understand God then you would be God.
 
In a billion year we will never comprehend God.  So if you think you can explain God, you are a fool.
 
True that we can never understand all about God based on our limitations. But should we ignore facts, logic and reasoning? I don't think so.
God is One, and what else can describe it better than that?
 
You say Bible says that Jesus is God, but what about when the same Bible quotes Jesus himself declare that he has a God, or that God is greater than him.
Why we not consider this quote as serious as the other ones? or not accept the facts?
Here are a few quotes from the Bible stating Jesus to be God's servant, and Jesus having a God. We all agree that God does not have a God, but we know that according to the Bible Jesus has a God. 
 

Acts 3:13 "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Ephesians 1:17"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ."
 
John 20:17 ".....but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
 
John 14:28 "...for my Father is greater than I."
 
For my friends that insist that Jesus was God on earth, these quotes are more than enough proof and my response from their trusted source (apart from logic and reasoning and Quran's correction) that he was not god, in fact he has a God like all of us to whom he served as a humble servant.
Hasan
 
 
 
 
I disagree with a lot of what you say Hasan, but I must admit that you are right here.
 
robin
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