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PattyaMainer
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2008 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by honeto

Dear Patty,
 
you wrote:
 " There is no worship of anyone other than God, Hasan."
Good, you say that, but it needs to show in our practice as such.
 
 "The point you cannot understand or believe is the Trinity.  Jesus IS God.  So is the Holy Spirit."
 
Look Patty, common sense tells us that someone who is born to another human. Ate, walked around, worshiped his creator, cried and called for help to God cannot be God.
Per your insistance suppose I take your claim serious for a moment, you are unable to give me a single prove from the book you believe it says so. Where, have you found a verse where Jesus, the servant of God even claimed to be God? If you cannot bring out a prove to back up your claim. I request you not to make such a false claim because you heard others do that.
You may be older and more knowledgeable than many of us, but does that make you right for sure, I would be careful making any claims rather try to bring out evidance to support my claim or admit that I have been led by other without poofs or knowledge.
It is not that I am slow at learning thus unable to grasp Trinity. My dear Patty, its something many devout Christians themselves don't understand, let alone to convince another. Many former Christians have told me that they never grasped what it was rather were told that it was, and it was a mystry.
I don't know about you but I would not sign my next lease if I see any blanks or unclear contents in there and am told not to worry, its just a mystry, just sign it you will be fine."  No thank you. Its funny how lightly we take something with graver consequences.
 
Jesus is God "The Father and I are ONE."
Are you kidding me with that one? Where did Jesus said, "I am God worship me in that quote" Obviously if (as you claim) He was God, He would tell others about it and tell them to worship him. God has addressed to mankind, and told them throughout (in Bible and in Quran as well) " I am your God, worship me. And you should not take anyone else as God"
Now, if Jesus was God, as you claim, where is that claim as it should be: " I am Jesus, your God, you should worship me"?????
And that "one" thing don't fulfill the claim just look at this quote:

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name— the name you gave meso that they may be one as we are one.

 
And remember, its not about faith or this and that. Its two adults trying to make their points. You claim he was God, but you have no convincing prove of that. Should we still believe you because you are older than most of us, know more and have been reading Bible before I opened my eyes in this world, are a white American lady, living in Maine? I respect all of that my dear, but we are talking here something as simple as 2+2 in my opinion.
Your claim of Jesus being God, is without a proof, but I have given you saveral quotes to show you (and that's according to the same book you believe) that Jesus was a man, a prophet, a great guide for mankind, born to a virgin, Virgin Mary, a great woman, a human who did not worship her son.
 
May God guide us all to the truth, our only saviour.
 
 
Hasan
 
Dear Hasan,
 
I am not in any manner demanding respect from you or anyone else.  You are not obligated to respect be because of age, culture, religion, ethnicity, or any other reason.  I am simply explaining my beliefs to you.  I will offer the following to you:
 

Matthew 4:3-11

This famous passage, about Jesus in the desert being tempted by the devil, is not just a romantic story, nor is it just the devil trying to cause Jesus as a man to fall. In the passage Jesus says that He was God.

The question asked by the devil in verse 3 is rhetorical He knew that Jesus was God and he was not questioning if He was God. Rather, he was testing Him AS God! “If thou be the Son of God...” then do this, or that to prove it (knowing that if Jesus did what he asked, then He would have lost His authority). The term ‘Son of God’ means far more than just ‘son’, because the Son IS God.

The devil persists in trying to get Jesus to do his bidding, and Jesus replied: “It is written again, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” (verse 7). He was referring to God as a Trinity (including Himself), not only to the Father, for Satan was trying to tempt (or test) Jesus on this earth. He distinctly says He was the Lord God in this verse. In verse 10 Jesus underlines His being God by saying “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”  This was a remarkable piece of verbal structure, for it does two things – it tells Satan that Jesus (as Man) could not worship a creature because only God is to be worshiped and, it tells him that he must only worship Him, Jesus Christ, for He is God.

There are many, many verses in the OT and NT which indicate that Jesus is God.  You have to read them with an open mind and without prejudice.  I wish you peace and understanding, Hasan.
 
Patty
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2008 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Dear Patty,
 
you wrote:
 " There is no worship of anyone other than God, Hasan."
Good, you say that, but it needs to show in our practice as such.
 
 "The point you cannot understand or believe is the Trinity.  Jesus IS God.  So is the Holy Spirit."
 
Look Patty, common sense tells us that someone who is born to another human. Ate, walked around, worshiped his creator, cried and called for help to God cannot be God.
Per your insistance suppose I take your claim serious for a moment, you are unable to give me a single prove from the book you believe it says so. Where, have you found a verse where Jesus, the servant of God even claimed to be God? If you cannot bring out a prove to back up your claim. I request you not to make such a false claim because you heard others do that.
You may be older and more knowledgeable than many of us, but does that make you right for sure, I would be careful making any claims rather try to bring out evidance to support my claim or admit that I have been led by other without poofs or knowledge.
It is not that I am slow at learning thus unable to grasp Trinity. My dear Patty, its something many devout Christians themselves don't understand, let alone to convince another. Many former Christians have told me that they never grasped what it was rather were told that it was, and it was a mystry.
I don't know about you but I would not sign my next lease if I see any blanks or unclear contents in there and am told not to worry, its just a mystry, just sign it you will be fine."  No thank you. Its funny how lightly we take something with graver consequences.
 
Jesus is God "The Father and I are ONE."
Are you kidding me with that one? Where did Jesus said, "I am God worship me in that quote" Obviously if (as you claim) He was God, He would tell others about it and tell them to worship him. God has addressed to mankind, and told them throughout (in Bible and in Quran as well) " I am your God, worship me. And you should not take anyone else as God"
Now, if Jesus was God, as you claim, where is that claim as it should be: " I am Jesus, your God, you should worship me"?????
And that "one" thing don't fulfill the claim just look at this quote:

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name— the name you gave meso that they may be one as we are one.

 
And remember, its not about faith or this and that. Its two adults trying to make their points. You claim he was God, but you have no convincing prove of that. Should we still believe you because you are older than most of us, know more and have been reading Bible before I opened my eyes in this world, are a white American lady, living in Maine? I respect all of that my dear, but we are talking here something as simple as 2+2 in my opinion.
Your claim of Jesus being God, is without a proof, but I have given you saveral quotes to show you (and that's according to the same book you believe) that Jesus was a man, a prophet, a great guide for mankind, born to a virgin, Virgin Mary, a great woman, a human who did not worship her son.
 
May God guide us all to the truth, our only saviour.
 
 
Hasan
 
Dear Hasan,
 
I am not in any manner demanding respect from you or anyone else.  You are not obligated to respect be because of age, culture, religion, ethnicity, or any other reason.  I am simply explaining my beliefs to you.  I will offer the following to you:
 

Matthew 4:3-11

This famous passage, about Jesus in the desert being tempted by the devil, is not just a romantic story, nor is it just the devil trying to cause Jesus as a man to fall. In the passage Jesus says that He was God.

The question asked by the devil in verse 3 is rhetorical He knew that Jesus was God and he was not questioning if He was God. Rather, he was testing Him AS God! “If thou be the Son of God...” then do this, or that to prove it (knowing that if Jesus did what he asked, then He would have lost His authority). The term ‘Son of God’ means far more than just ‘son’, because the Son IS God.

The devil persists in trying to get Jesus to do his bidding, and Jesus replied: “It is written again, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” (verse 7). He was referring to God as a Trinity (including Himself), not only to the Father, for Satan was trying to tempt (or test) Jesus on this earth. He distinctly says He was the Lord God in this verse. In verse 10 Jesus underlines His being God by saying “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”  This was a remarkable piece of verbal structure, for it does two things – it tells Satan that Jesus (as Man) could not worship a creature because only God is to be worshiped and, it tells him that he must only worship Him, Jesus Christ, for He is God.

There are many, many verses in the OT and NT which indicate that Jesus is God.  You have to read them with an open mind and without prejudice.  I wish you peace and understanding, Hasan.
 
Patty
 
Patty,
you suggest I read with an open mind and without prejudice. Let us do that, let us not assume what the hidden meaning vs what the words itself mean.
 
Here is that quote you are talking about as it appears in a Bible: 
Matthew 4:3-11 The tempter came to him. He said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."

 4 Jesus answered, "It is written, 'Man doesn't live only on bread. He also lives on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'

 5 Then the devil took Jesus to the holy city. He had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. It is written,
   " 'The Lord will command his angels to take good care of you.
      They will lift you up in their hands.
   Then you won't trip over a stone.' " 
 7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'  8 Finally, the devil took Jesus to a very high mountain. He showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 "If you bow down and worship me," he said, "I will give you all of this."

 10 Jesus said to him, "Get away from me, Satan! It is written, 'Worship the Lord your God. He is the only one you should serve.'

 11 Then the devil left Jesus. Angels came and took care of him.

 
I do not see anything in these verses that leads me to beleive that Jesus is God, or as you see. And let me break it down so all can see.
 
3 The tempter came to him. He said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
 
"Son of God" that's what it reads, nowhere it says God. And as we know there are several sons of God in the Bible beside Jesus, that means having called son of God is not calling God. Otherwise all of those refered as sons of God in the Bible will qualify to be God as well.
 
 5 Then the devil took Jesus to the holy city. He had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
Just read it: 'devil took Jesus', first it says Jesus, the name given to son of Mary. It does not say God.
Second, 'devil took him' sounds like, if you are God, your own creation will take you around? You ask me to be open and without prejudice, I ask you to be a bit sensible about what and who God is, He is certainly not a joke, "He had him (God according to your claim) stand on the highest point of the temple.
 
As we further read:
6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. It is written,
   " 'The Lord will command his angels to take good care of you.
 Sounds like God will be saved by His angels if we assume Jesus to be God.
      
..They will lift you up in their hands.  (so the angles will lift up God to safety?? according to you.)
   Then you won't trip over a stone.' "  7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'  8 Finally, the devil took Jesus to a very high mountain. He showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 "If you bow down and worship me," he said, "I will give you all of this."
 
Patty, all of this goes against your argument. No Creation of God will try and never can subjugate His Creator and maker who has control over all. Hence this quote actually proves that Jesus was a servant of God and not God. The devil was trying and tempting him to leave the worship of God, and turn in to worhip him instead.
 
Let us give this an honest evaluation.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 08 December 2008 at 6:43pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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PattyaMainer
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2008 at 4:06am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Dear Patty,
 
you wrote:
 " There is no worship of anyone other than God, Hasan."
Good, you say that, but it needs to show in our practice as such.
 
 "The point you cannot understand or believe is the Trinity.  Jesus IS God.  So is the Holy Spirit."
 
Look Patty, common sense tells us that someone who is born to another human. Ate, walked around, worshiped his creator, cried and called for help to God cannot be God.
Per your insistance suppose I take your claim serious for a moment, you are unable to give me a single prove from the book you believe it says so. Where, have you found a verse where Jesus, the servant of God even claimed to be God? If you cannot bring out a prove to back up your claim. I request you not to make such a false claim because you heard others do that.
You may be older and more knowledgeable than many of us, but does that make you right for sure, I would be careful making any claims rather try to bring out evidance to support my claim or admit that I have been led by other without poofs or knowledge.
It is not that I am slow at learning thus unable to grasp Trinity. My dear Patty, its something many devout Christians themselves don't understand, let alone to convince another. Many former Christians have told me that they never grasped what it was rather were told that it was, and it was a mystry.
I don't know about you but I would not sign my next lease if I see any blanks or unclear contents in there and am told not to worry, its just a mystry, just sign it you will be fine."  No thank you. Its funny how lightly we take something with graver consequences.
 
Jesus is God "The Father and I are ONE."
Are you kidding me with that one? Where did Jesus said, "I am God worship me in that quote" Obviously if (as you claim) He was God, He would tell others about it and tell them to worship him. God has addressed to mankind, and told them throughout (in Bible and in Quran as well) " I am your God, worship me. And you should not take anyone else as God"
Now, if Jesus was God, as you claim, where is that claim as it should be: " I am Jesus, your God, you should worship me"?????
And that "one" thing don't fulfill the claim just look at this quote:

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name— the name you gave meso that they may be one as we are one.

 
And remember, its not about faith or this and that. Its two adults trying to make their points. You claim he was God, but you have no convincing prove of that. Should we still believe you because you are older than most of us, know more and have been reading Bible before I opened my eyes in this world, are a white American lady, living in Maine? I respect all of that my dear, but we are talking here something as simple as 2+2 in my opinion.
Your claim of Jesus being God, is without a proof, but I have given you saveral quotes to show you (and that's according to the same book you believe) that Jesus was a man, a prophet, a great guide for mankind, born to a virgin, Virgin Mary, a great woman, a human who did not worship her son.
 
May God guide us all to the truth, our only saviour.
 
 
Hasan
 
Dear Hasan,
 
I am not in any manner demanding respect from you or anyone else.  You are not obligated to respect be because of age, culture, religion, ethnicity, or any other reason.  I am simply explaining my beliefs to you.  I will offer the following to you:
 

Matthew 4:3-11

This famous passage, about Jesus in the desert being tempted by the devil, is not just a romantic story, nor is it just the devil trying to cause Jesus as a man to fall. In the passage Jesus says that He was God.

The question asked by the devil in verse 3 is rhetorical He knew that Jesus was God and he was not questioning if He was God. Rather, he was testing Him AS God! “If thou be the Son of God...” then do this, or that to prove it (knowing that if Jesus did what he asked, then He would have lost His authority). The term ‘Son of God’ means far more than just ‘son’, because the Son IS God.

The devil persists in trying to get Jesus to do his bidding, and Jesus replied: “It is written again, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” (verse 7). He was referring to God as a Trinity (including Himself), not only to the Father, for Satan was trying to tempt (or test) Jesus on this earth. He distinctly says He was the Lord God in this verse. In verse 10 Jesus underlines His being God by saying “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”  This was a remarkable piece of verbal structure, for it does two things – it tells Satan that Jesus (as Man) could not worship a creature because only God is to be worshiped and, it tells him that he must only worship Him, Jesus Christ, for He is God.

There are many, many verses in the OT and NT which indicate that Jesus is God.  You have to read them with an open mind and without prejudice.  I wish you peace and understanding, Hasan.
 
Patty
 
Patty,
you suggest I read with an open mind and without prejudice. Let us do that, let us not assume what the hidden meaning vs what the words itself mean.
 
Here is that quote you are talking about as it appears in a Bible: 
Matthew 4:3-11 The tempter came to him. He said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."

 4 Jesus answered, "It is written, 'Man doesn't live only on bread. He also lives on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'

 5 Then the devil took Jesus to the holy city. He had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. It is written,
   " 'The Lord will command his angels to take good care of you.
      They will lift you up in their hands.
   Then you won't trip over a stone.' " 
 7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'  8 Finally, the devil took Jesus to a very high mountain. He showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 "If you bow down and worship me," he said, "I will give you all of this."

 10 Jesus said to him, "Get away from me, Satan! It is written, 'Worship the Lord your God. He is the only one you should serve.'

 11 Then the devil left Jesus. Angels came and took care of him.

 
I do not see anything in these verses that leads me to beleive that Jesus is God, or as you see. And let me break it down so all can see.
 
3 The tempter came to him. He said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
 
"Son of God" that's what it reads, nowhere it says God. And as we know there are several sons of God in the Bible beside Jesus, that means having called son of God is not calling God. Otherwise all of those refered as sons of God in the Bible will qualify to be God as well.
 
 5 Then the devil took Jesus to the holy city. He had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
Just read it: 'devil took Jesus', first it says Jesus, the name given to son of Mary. It does not say God.
Second, 'devil took him' sounds like, if you are God, your own creation will take you around? You ask me to be open and without prejudice, I ask you to be a bit sensible about what and who God is, He is certainly not a joke, "He had him (God according to your claim) stand on the highest point of the temple.
 
As we further read:
6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. It is written,
   " 'The Lord will command his angels to take good care of you.
 Sounds like God will be saved by His angels if we assume Jesus to be God.
      
..They will lift you up in their hands.  (so the angles will lift up God to safety?? according to you.)
   Then you won't trip over a stone.' "  7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'  8 Finally, the devil took Jesus to a very high mountain. He showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 "If you bow down and worship me," he said, "I will give you all of this."
 
Patty, all of this goes against your argument. No Creation of God will try and never can subjugate His Creator and maker who has control over all. Hence this quote actually proves that Jesus was a servant of God and not God. The devil was trying and tempting him to leave the worship of God, and turn in to worhip him instead.
 
Let us give this an honest evaluation.
Hasan
Dear Hasan,
 
With all due respect, I see no point in continuing this "dialogue."  It is pointless on a Muslim forum.  I have given you many scriptures which prove my point, but being the good Muslim you are, you turn to other verses, or take the verses out of context, etc.  I know what is the Truth, and I know you believe just as strongly that you have the truth.
 
I wish you well, but God does not expect me to continue on in a situation where the other person cannot see what is being presented.  You have a perfect right to believe as you do.  And I have just as much right to believe as I do.  With religious issues, one can very rarely ever change the mind of a person who believes differently from what you believe.  Such is the case here.  You are not really interested in hearing what I have to say.  You only use my words as an "opportunity" to twist them into YOUR interpretation.  It takes many years of study, and a lot of prayer and faith to understand the meaning of scriptures.  You do not want to understand them, only discredit them.  And so I will not respond any longer.  I have the true understanding of holy scriptures and the faith in God to believe what is being stated in His Word.  Also, I have never once questioned your holy book or Mohammed.....I do not believe in doing that, even though there are MANY questions I could have posed.  It would only cause hard feelings, which I definitely do not want here.
 
You take your path, and I will continue on mine.  Peace and good will to you, Hasan.  Goodbye.
 
Patty
 
Patty
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2008 at 6:14am
Originally posted by honeto

As salaamulaikum Honeto.I dont know why you bother with this women.As you know we cannot make the blind to see or the deaf to hear.To us be our religion and to them be theirs.
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto


 

Deuteronomy 32:16[/COLOR">They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols.


Hasan

 

 

 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity.

 

 

 

 

Dear Patty,

I note that in your quote above its someone other than Jesus that is saying what it is saying: i.e. "Jesus Christ be worshipped."

 

Here is a quote from the same Bible, and these words suppose to be coming out of the mouth of Jesus, and here it is as if he is speaking, delivering a command, let's read it:

John 4:23[/COLOR">Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Hasan


 

 

Yes, Hasan, it is God who is speaking in the verse above from Deuteronomy.  Hasan, I thought Muslims did not believe in the NT, yet you are quoting a verse from St. John, one of the four Gospels in the NT.  Why would you believe this verse?  But since you did post this one verse from the Gospel of St. John, I'll add a couple more verses so that you can see what Jesus was really stating:

 


<H3>John 4:20-26 (New International Version)</H3>
<DIV ="result-text-style-normal">

<SPAN id=en-NIV-26167 ="sup">20</SPAN>Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

 <SPAN id=en-NIV-26168 ="sup">21</SPAN>Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. <SPAN id=en-NIV-26169 ="sup">22</SPAN>You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. <SPAN id=en-NIV-26170 ="sup">23</SPAN>Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. <SPAN id=en-NIV-26171 ="sup">24</SPAN>God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

 <SPAN id=en-NIV-26172 ="sup">25</SPAN>The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 

<SPAN id=en-NIV-26173 ="sup">26</SPAN>Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

 

God's Peace,

Patty

<DIV ="result-text-style-normal">

 

Dear Patty,

let me clear out your confusion, I do not believe the present form of what we now know as the Bible to be God's pure word sent down to prophets before the last prophet, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). The reason I quote from it is to show those who believe in it when engaged in a conversation like this to prove or disprove a claim.

Deuteronomy 32:16 was to show you that God does not like the worship of other than God, also it shows that God does not like idols be worshipped. That and many other verses in the Bible, including that of the ten commandments clearly state not erecting idols of God or any living thing for the purpose of worship. I mention that to show Catholics that by making representations of any living thing, praying and bowing down to them is against the teachings of not just the Quran, but the very book they claim to be guiding them!

 

In response you wrote the folowing:

 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity."

 

Now to show you that your quote of worshipping Jesus cannot be true since in the same Bible Jesus is quoted to have said that actually its God (the Father) that to be worshipped. Here is that quote again:

John 4:23[/COLOR">Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

 

So my use of these quotes from the Bible is to show you, who believe in it to be true word of God, that it also negate almost every claim you make and prove through it.

Hasan

 

 

T

 

I maintain the accuracy and truthfulness of the Holy Bible which was sent to the apostles and disciples from God.  You do not believe it, and that is your right.  Jesus warned of false prophets who would follow him, and warned us to beware of them. 

 

Hasan, we will just have to agree to disagree.  This dialogue is a stalemate.  You are devoted to your faith, and I am just as devoted to mine.

 

I wish you peace.

 

Patty

 

Dear Patty,

the purpose of whole this hard work is not to say "I believe this and you believe that and we are not going to agree with each other, and yet keep bringing up issues!" rather to back up our claims upon which we profess to build our faiths.

You made a claim, backed it up by a source. The same source should not contradict it, if it does then either: your claim is not true, or your source is inconsistant.  There is no hidden truth about it other than that.

 

Simple truth of what we discussed above is that you through a Bible quote claimed that Jesus to be worshipped, I through another quote from the same book showed you that it is not to be true, and in fact God, the Father is the only one to be worshipped. Now without taking sides, your claim was proven wrong dear, plain and simple.

 

If I claim, which I do that only God, whom Bible refers as 'Father' is to be worshipped according to the Quran, and then you happen to find a quote that shows somone else to be worshipped, then you have proved me wrong, that simple.

 

Dear, first we have to test and prove a claim we make before we put our trust, and everything else into it.

 

Let us apply that simple rule, what we expect when we sign next credit card sales reciept, or a bank, car or legal document. When we sign it after reading /knowing/ understanding and making sure it does not have a descripency we don't get surpises like we do otherwise, when we don't pay attention and sign without reading or understanding it. Is hereafter of less value, or we jsut don't believe it to be true??

 

Hasan

 
Surah Al Ikhlas : Bismillah AR Rahnan AR RahimSay He is Allah(God)The One and Only Allah,the Eternal,Absolute;He begetteth not,Nor is He begotten;And there is none Like unto Him
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2008 at 7:09am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
This has been given great study by theologians from the Vatican.  Here is one brief response:
 
This passage of Mark 16:9-20 is sometimes called "The Longer Ending". This designation is in comparison to the shorter ending found in some less important manuscripts.

Citations from the early Church Fathers indicate that this passage was composed in the first century. The vocabulary and style of the passage, however, indicate that it was written by someone other than Mark.


 If John Mark wasn't the one who wrote Mark 16:9-20, then who did? And how can you prove the ownership of the other person?Was he appointed or inspired by GOD Almighty?  If yes, then who is that man?

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The issue, however, is not really whether or not Mark wrote the passage or if it was added later. The only real issue is whether is belongs in the canon of inspired Sacred Scripture.

Tradition has always considered this passage as Scripture,but if there were any doubts the Council of Trent officially and infallibly declared this passage to be part of the canon of Mark.


 Support your claim by evidence.

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The passage certainly is a true statement. The footnotes of the NAB remark: "It is, in essence a general resume of the material concerning the appearances of the risen Jesus, refelcting, in particular, traditions found in Luke 24 and John 20."

Bottomline: it looks like Mark did not write this passage of Mark 16:9-20, but nevertheless the Church has declared the passage to be Sacred Scripture.
 
Bro. Ignatius Mary
 
 
Kind Regards,
Patty


 Here is response to your response

 Topic:Corruption of Mark 16:9-20


 There was some dispute among textual critics in the 19th century as to whether 16:9-20, describing some disciples' encounters with the resurrected Jesus, were actually part of the original Gospel, or if they were added later. The oldest extant manuscripts do not contain these verses and the style differs from the rest of Mark, suggesting that they were a later addition. A few manuscripts even include a different ending after verse 8. By the 5th century, at least 4 different endings have been attested. (See Mark 16 for a more comprehensive treatment of this topic.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16

Mark 16 is the final chapter of the Gospel of Mark. There is much debate about the ending of Mark, and many textual problems—there are nine different endings known—but most of the debate focuses around the so-called ‘longer’ ending (16:9-20).

Possible Scenarios

* The original ending of Mark was lost, and somebody else at a very early date completed the gospel. C. H. Turner has suggested that the original version of the gospel may have been a codex and the last pages may have been lost. However, it seems unlikely that Christian use of the codex form stretched as far back as the proposed date for the writing of Mark, though there is evidence for its adoption in the second century;

* The author(s) of Mark intentionally ended the gospel at 16:8, and someone else at an early date completed the gospel;

* More than one edition of Mark’s Gospel was made, so some Christian communities would have possessed the longer ending edition, and others would have possessed the edition that stopped at 16:8. ( SAM- MEANING PEOPLE HAD DIFFERENT BIBLES)

* The original ending was inconvenient to the church, and it was replaced.

Verses 16:8-9 read as follows in the New Revised Standard Version:

(16:8) So they went out and fled from the tomb, for terror and amazement had seized them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid. (16:9) Now after he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from who he had cast out seven demons.

Note the way the narrative flow abruptly changes from "they were afraid" to "now after he rose". Also, Mary Magdalene, introduced at the beginning of the chapter (16:1), is re-introduced almost as though she had not already been mentioned.

The final sentence in v.8 is also regarded as strange by many scholars, because in the Greek text it finishes with the conjunction ?a? (gar, 'for'). It is contended by those who see 16:9-20 as originally Markan that ?a? literally means “because”, and this ending to v.8 is therefore not grammatically coherent (literally, it would read “they were afraid because”). However, this objection misunderstands the nature of the Greek language. Since Greek is an inflexive language as opposed to a syntactic language such as English, word order is not as important. (Compare Grammar in Greek language and Grammar in English language.) ?a? is never the first word of a sentence: there is no such rule that states it can never be the last word, though it is very rare for a book to end with ?a?.

Still, ?a? aside, the grammar of v.8 is still odd, as the verb f?ße?µa? (phobeomai, 'I fear') has no object. Gundry also mentions that only 10% of Mark’s ?a? clauses—6 out of 66—conclude pericopes (Mark: A Commentary on His Apology for the Cross, Chapters 9-16). As such, this statistic favours the view that, rather than concluding 16:1-8, v.8 begins a new pericope, the rest of which is now lost to us. Gundry therefore does not see v.8 as the intended ending; a resurrection narrative was either written, then lost, or planned but never actually written. Either way, the originality of vv.9-20 is denied by Gundry—and, indeed, the overwhelming majority of textual critics.

Mark 16:9-20 is in most of the undamaged Greek copies of the Gospel of Mark. A copy of a manuscript, however, is only as good as the text being copied, so all of the texts with 16:9-20 may simply be copies of the same non-Markan addition. The verses are absent in the oldest manuscripts of Mark, including the vitally important Codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, which both conclude the gospel at 16:8.

However, Mark 16:9-20 is absent in other early church fathers (e.g. Clement of Alexandria, Origen). At any rate, all that can be concluded from this use of the longer ending is that, rightly or wrongly, Mark 16:9-20 had become part of Church tradition and scripture much like other apocryphal writings such as The Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache, neither of which are now considered canonical.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09674b.htm

 Some textual problems, however, still remain, e.g. whether Gerasenon or Gergesenon is to be read in v, 1, eporei or epoiei in vi, 20, and whether the difficult autou, attested by B, Aleph, A, L, or autes is to be read in vi, 20

the great textual problem of the Gospel concerns the genuineness of the last twelve verses. Three conclusions of the Gospel are known: the long conclusion, as in our Bibles, containing verses 9-20, the short one ending with verse 8 (ephoboumto gar), and an intermediate form which (with some slight variations) runs as follows: "And they immediately made known all that had been commanded to those about Peter. And after this, Jesus Himself appeared to them, and through them sent forth from East to West the holy and incorruptible proclamation of the eternal salvation." Now this third form may be dismissed at once. Four unical manuscripts, dating from the seventh to the ninth century, give it, indeed, after xvi, 9, but each of them also makes reference to the longer ending as an alternative (for particulars cf. Swete, op. cit., pp. cv-cvii). It stands also in the margin of the cursive Manuscript 274, in the margin of the Harclean Syriac and of two manuscripts of the Memphitic version; and in a few manuscripts of the Ethiopic it stands between verse 8 and the ordinary conclusion. Only one authority, the Old Latin k, gives it alone (in a very corrupt rendering), without any reference to the longer form. Such evidence, especially when compared with that for the other two endings, can have no weight, and in fact, no scholar regards this intermediate conclusion as having any titles to acceptance.

We may pass on, then, to consider how the case stands between the long conclusion and the short, i.e. between accepting xvi, 9-20, as a genuine portion of the original Gospel, or making the original end with xvi, 8. In favour of the short ending Eusebius ("Quaest. ad Marin.") is appealed to as saying that an apologist might get rid of any difficulty arising from a comparison of Matt. xxviii, 1, with Mark, xvi, 9, in regard to the hour of Christ's Resurrection, by pointing out that the passage in Mark beginning with verse 9 is not contained in all the manuscripts of the Gospel. The historian then goes on himself to say that in nearly all the manuscripts of Mark, at least, in the accurate ones (schedon en apasi tois antigraphois . . . ta goun akribe, the Gospel ends with xvi, 8. It is true, Eusebius gives a second reply which the apologist might make, and which supposes the genuineness of the disputed passage, and he says that this latter reply might be made by one "who did not dare to set aside anything whatever that was found in any way in the Gospel writing". But the whole passage shows clearly enough that Eusebius was inclined to reject everything after xvi, 8. It is commonly held, too, that he did not apply his canons to the disputed verses, thereby showing clearly that he did not regard them as a portion of the original text (see, however, Scriv., "Introd.", II, 1894, 339). St. Jerome also says in one place ("Ad. Hedib.") that the passage was wanting in nearly all Greek manuscripts (omnibus Græciæ libris poene hoc capitulum in fine non habentibus), but he quotes it elsewhere ("Comment. on Matt."; "Ad Hedib."), and, as we know, he incorporated it in the Vulgate. It is quite clear that the whole passage, where Jerome makes the statement about the disputed verses being absent from Greek manuscripts, is borrowed almost verbatim from Eusebius, and it may be doubted whether his statement really adds any independent weight to the statement of Eusebius. It seems most likely also that Victor of Antioch, the first commentator of the Second Gospel, regarded xvi, 8, as the conclusion. If we add to this that the Gospel ends with xvi, 8, in the two oldest Greek manuscripts, B and Aleph, in the Sin. Syriac and in a few Ethiopic manuscripts, and that the cursive Manuscript 22 and some Armenian manuscripts indicate doubt as to whether the true ending is at verse 8 or verse 20,

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/mark.html

The author of the Gospel of Mark does indeed seem to lack first-hand knowledge of the geography of Palestine. Randel Helms writes concerning Mark 11:1 (Who Wrote the Gospels?, p. 6): "Anyone approaching Jerusalem from Jericho would come first to Bethany and then Bethphage, not the reverse. This is one of several passages showing that Mark knew little about Palestine; we must assume, Dennis Nineham argues, that 'Mark did not know the relative positions of these two villages on the Jericho road' (1963, 294-295). Indeed, Mark knew so little about the area that he described Jesus going from Tyrian territory 'by way of Sidon to the Sea of Galilee through the territory of the Ten Towns' (Mark 7:31); this is similar to saying that one goes from London to Paris by way of Edinburgh and Rome. The simplist solution, says Nineham, is that 'the evangelist was not directly acquainted with Palestine' (40)."

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/mark/intro.htm

Other hands have attached additional endings after Mark 16:8; see the note on Mark 16:9-20.

All this information is enough to cast doubt upon the entire book of Mark. We don’t know for sure on who wrote Mark, we don’t where it was exactly written, we don’t know exactly when it was written. Finally the fact that there is such a controversy on the ending of Mark throws the whole book into   question just on this fact alone. The fact that additions have been made in the last chapter leaves us wondering what else has been added in Mark. 
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2008 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
Matthew 4:3-11

This famous passage, about Jesus in the desert being tempted by the devil, is not just a romantic story, nor is it just the devil trying to cause Jesus as a man to fall. In the passage Jesus says that He was God.

 Response to PattyaMainer

 The Bible says that God cannot be tempted (James 1:13) and yet Jesus is said to have been tempted by the Devil no less (Matthew 4:1). Doesn't this prove that Jesus is not God?

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The question asked by the devil in verse 3 is rhetorical He knew that Jesus was God and he was not questioning if He was God. Rather, he was testing Him AS God! “If thou be the Son of God...” then do this, or that to prove it (knowing that if Jesus did what he asked, then He would have lost His authority). The term ‘Son of God’ means far more than just ‘son’, because the Son IS God.


 Jesus the "Son" of GOD

THE MEANING OF THE SON OF GOD

 Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son%5Fof%5FGod


In the Tanakh

In the Tanakh, the phrase "sons of god" has multiple meanings:

  • The Hebrew phrase Benei Elohim, often translated as "The Sons of God", describes angels, demigods or immensely powerful human beings. See Genesis 6:2-4. Many Bible scholars believe that this is a reference to pre-Biblical near-eastern mythology.
  • It is used to denote a human judge or ruler (Ps. lxxxii. 6, "children of the Most High"; in many passages "gods" and "judges" seem to be equations); and to the real or ideal king over Israel (II Sam. vii. 14, with reference to David and his dynasty; comp. Ps. lxxxix. 27, 28).
  • The phrases "sons of God" and "children of God" are applied to Israel as a people (comp. Ex. iv. 22 and Hos. xi. 1), the Jewish people, and also to all members of the human race.

In the Tanakh the term does not connote any form of physical descent from, or essential unity with, God. The Hebrew idiom conveys an expression of godlikeness (see Godliness).

In Judaism the term "son of God" is rarely used in the sense of "messiah."

Taken from http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=son+of+God

 

son of God

One entry found for son of God.

<> < name="hdwd" value="son of God" ="">< name="listword" value="son of God" ="">< name="book" value="Dictionary" ="">

 

Main Entry: son of God
1 often capitalized S : a superhuman or divine being (as an angel)
2 capitalized S : MESSIAH 1
3 : a person established in the love of God by divine promise

So note, the term son of God does not mean God. As you can see, Jews had already been using this term, and they never took it to mean God now did they?

Secondly, Jesus was sent to these very same Jews, so hence when Jesus called himself the son of God, he was defintly referring to the same definition the Jews had, which is that the son of God does not mean God, and that it just means someone special or someone in power.
 

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The devil persists in trying to get Jesus to do his bidding, and Jesus replied: “It is written again, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” (verse 7). He was referring to God as a Trinity (including Himself), not only to the Father, for Satan was trying to tempt (or test) Jesus on this earth. He distinctly says He was the Lord God in this verse. In verse 10 Jesus underlines His being God by saying “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”  This was a remarkable piece of verbal structure, for it does two things – it tells Satan that Jesus (as Man) could not worship a creature because only God is to be worshiped and, it tells him that he must only worship Him, Jesus Christ, for He is God.

There are many, many verses in the OT and NT which indicate that Jesus is God.  You have to read them with an open mind and without prejudice.  I wish you peace and understanding, Hasan.
 


 Patty Read Matthew 4:8-10 carefully

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' (Matthew 4:8-10)"

 
There are two logical problems with the trinity in these verses:

1-  Notice how satan told Jesus "if you will bow down and worship me."  It is crystal clear that satan knew Jesus as a Messenger from GOD Almighty, and not GOD Almighty Himself.  Otherwise, he wouldn't dare to tell his Creator that.

2-  Notice Jesus' response to satan: "Away from me satan! For it is written 'Worship the LORD your God, and serve Him only".   Jesus here was clearly directing satan to GOD Almighty; a being other than Jesus.   Jesus did not tell satan "worship me".


 
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2008 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
Matthew 4:3-11

This famous passage, about Jesus in the desert being tempted by the devil, is not just a romantic story, nor is it just the devil trying to cause Jesus as a man to fall. In the passage Jesus says that He was God.

 Response to PattyaMainer

 The Bible says that God cannot be tempted (James 1:13) and yet Jesus is said to have been tempted by the Devil no less (Matthew 4:1). Doesn't this prove that Jesus is not God?
 
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The question asked by the devil in verse 3 is rhetorical He knew that Jesus was God and he was not questioning if He was God. Rather, he was testing Him AS God! “If thou be the Son of God...” then do this, or that to prove it (knowing that if Jesus did what he asked, then He would have lost His authority). The term ‘Son of God’ means far more than just ‘son’, because the Son IS God.


 Jesus the "Son" of GOD

THE MEANING OF THE SON OF GOD

 Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son%5Fof%5FGod


In the Tanakh

In the Tanakh, the phrase "sons of god" has multiple meanings:

  • The Hebrew phrase Benei Elohim, often translated as "The Sons of God", describes angels, demigods or immensely powerful human beings. See Genesis 6:2-4. Many Bible scholars believe that this is a reference to pre-Biblical near-eastern mythology.
  • It is used to denote a human judge or ruler (Ps. lxxxii. 6, "children of the Most High"; in many passages "gods" and "judges" seem to be equations); and to the real or ideal king over Israel (II Sam. vii. 14, with reference to David and his dynasty; comp. Ps. lxxxix. 27, 28).
  • The phrases "sons of God" and "children of God" are applied to Israel as a people (comp. Ex. iv. 22 and Hos. xi. 1), the Jewish people, and also to all members of the human race.

In the Tanakh the term does not connote any form of physical descent from, or essential unity with, God. The Hebrew idiom conveys an expression of godlikeness (see Godliness).

In Judaism the term "son of God" is rarely used in the sense of "messiah."

Taken from http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=son+of+God

 

son of God

One entry found for son of God.

<> < name="hdwd" value="son of God" ="">< name="listword" value="son of God" ="">< name="book" value="Dictionary" ="">

 

Main Entry: son of God
1 often capitalized S : a superhuman or divine being (as an angel)
2 capitalized S : MESSIAH 1
3 : a person established in the love of God by divine promise

So note, the term son of God does not mean God. As you can see, Jews had already been using this term, and they never took it to mean God now did they?

Secondly, Jesus was sent to these very same Jews, so hence when Jesus called himself the son of God, he was defintly referring to the same definition the Jews had, which is that the son of God does not mean God, and that it just means someone special or someone in power.
 

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The devil persists in trying to get Jesus to do his bidding, and Jesus replied: “It is written again, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” (verse 7). He was referring to God as a Trinity (including Himself), not only to the Father, for Satan was trying to tempt (or test) Jesus on this earth. He distinctly says He was the Lord God in this verse. In verse 10 Jesus underlines His being God by saying “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”  This was a remarkable piece of verbal structure, for it does two things – it tells Satan that Jesus (as Man) could not worship a creature because only God is to be worshiped and, it tells him that he must only worship Him, Jesus Christ, for He is God.

There are many, many verses in the OT and NT which indicate that Jesus is God.  You have to read them with an open mind and without prejudice.  I wish you peace and understanding, Hasan.
 


 Patty Read Matthew 4:8-10 carefully

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' (Matthew 4:8-10)"

 
There are two logical problems with the trinity in these verses:

1-  Notice how satan told Jesus "if you will bow down and worship me."  It is crystal clear that satan knew Jesus as a Messenger from GOD Almighty, and not GOD Almighty Himself.  Otherwise, he wouldn't dare to tell his Creator that.

2-  Notice Jesus' response to satan: "Away from me satan! For it is written 'Worship the LORD your God, and serve Him only".   Jesus here was clearly directing satan to GOD Almighty; a being other than Jesus.   Jesus did not tell satan "worship me".


 
 
Ali, you are once again twisting the meaning which is right in front of you. Jesus was confronted by Satan in the desert.  The Devil "ATTEMPTED" to tempt Jesus.  He did NOT succeed!Confused  Jesus told him in no uncertain, or twisted words, "You shall NOT tempt the Lord your God."  Of course he meant himself!!  Uh, remember, that's who Satan was TRYING to tempt.
 
Jesus "stuck to his guns" and rebuffed the devil each time he tried another tactic, such as offering him great wealth, kingdoms, etc.  Jesus was God, the devil is smart, not st**id, and he knew exactly who he was dealing with here, and it was not a messanger or a prophet....it was God Himself.  That is why Jesus kept telling Satan to "get thee behind me."  What on earth do you mean, "he (the devil) wouldn't dare try to tempt God?"  Of course he would....that's his whole plan for all eternity. 
 
Read my original post, carefully Ali:
 
"
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The question asked by the devil in verse 3 is rhetorical He knew that Jesus was God and he was not questioning if He was God. Rather, he was testing Him AS God! “If thou be the Son of God...” then do this, or that to prove it (knowing that if Jesus did what he asked, then He would have lost His authority). The term ‘Son of God’ means far more than just ‘son’, because the Son IS God.
"
 
As you can see, the Devil was not questioning IF he was God, he already knew he was God....he was trying to cause Jesus to do his bidding because IF Jesus did, he would have lost his power.  Jesus, of course, being God in the 2nd person, did NOT fall for it responded in two ways, by telling him not to tempt HIM/GOD, and to "get lost."  That is exactly what these verses of the Bible state....very clearly and specifically.
 
Patty


Edited by PattyaMainer - 09 December 2008 at 3:09pm
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2008 at 6:26pm
Patty,
its interesting that when I quoted this verse in which Jesus says : " I am returning to my God and your God" or " that father is greater than I" you change your position there by saying because Jesus was in human form. Now when the devil is talking to him, you wants us to not take Jesus as the man form, rather as God form.
And by the way, it is ridiculous to assume that the devil, created by God will try to trick and ask God " if you do this (God) I will give you this and that. That is laughable. My 3rd, 5th and 7th grader all will be laughing when I tell them this later tonight.
 
God is not a joke Patty.  Truth is not always easy to come, yet its the only choice. And you don't have to butter it up, its that simple and flat. None of the God's prophets according to the records were diplomatic when it came to belief in one God. They were as clear and blunt as can be. They knew and were told to make things clear and warn of the consequences. There is not other way.
Only thing I showed you is the truth of the matter and the argument with proof from your trusted source.
You will be asked what and why you believed, and I will be asked the same. We will be justly dealt! word for word, act for act by the Almighty, that's how I believe.
 
By the way we don't need an intercessor to connect us to the Almighty. God is near to you and I than them.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 09 December 2008 at 6:51pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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