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PattyaMainer
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 05 December 2008 at 3:43am
Dear Ali,
 
You stated this
 
"We believe only in those parts of Bible which are closest to Quran.We donot reject a Bible as a whole."
 
Uh, huh.....well it speaks volumes to know that you "pick and choose" which parts of the Bible to believe and which to disregard.  No, the Bible is inspired by God.  Every single word of it.  How easy it would be to say "I think I'll believe God/Jesus said this, but I don't like that part, so I'll reject it."  It is therefore a moot point to have a mature dialogue when you do not believe the inspired word of God.
 
Peace to you,
Patty
 
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 05 December 2008 at 3:49am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

 
Deuteronomy 32:16
They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols.
Hasan
 
 
 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity.
 
 
 
 
Dear Patty,
I note that in your quote above its someone other than Jesus that is saying what it is saying: i.e. "Jesus Christ be worshipped."
 
Here is a quote from the same Bible, and these words suppose to be coming out of the mouth of Jesus, and here it is as if he is speaking, delivering a command, let's read it:
John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Hasan


 
 
Yes, Hasan, it is God who is speaking in the verse above from Deuteronomy.  Hasan, I thought Muslims did not believe in the NT, yet you are quoting a verse from St. John, one of the four Gospels in the NT.  Why would you believe this verse?  But since you did post this one verse from the Gospel of St. John, I'll add a couple more verses so that you can see what Jesus was really stating:
 

John 4:20-26 (New International Version)

20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

 21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

 25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 

26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."
 
God's Peace,
Patty

 
Dear Patty,
let me clear out your confusion, I do not believe the present form of what we now know as the Bible to be God's pure word sent down to prophets before the last prophet, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). The reason I quote from it is to show those who believe in it when engaged in a conversation like this to prove or disprove a claim.
Deuteronomy 32:16 was to show you that God does not like the worship of other than God, also it shows that God does not like idols be worshipped. That and many other verses in the Bible, including that of the ten commandments clearly state not erecting idols of God or any living thing for the purpose of worship. I mention that to show Catholics that by making representations of any living thing, praying and bowing down to them is against the teachings of not just the Quran, but the very book they claim to be guiding them!
 
In response you wrote the folowing:
 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity."
 
Now to show you that your quote of worshipping Jesus cannot be true since in the same Bible Jesus is quoted to have said that actually its God (the Father) that to be worshipped. Here is that quote again:
John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
 
So my use of these quotes from the Bible is to show you, who believe in it to be true word of God, that it also negate almost every claim you make and prove through it.
Hasan
 
 
T
 
I maintain the accuracy and truthfulness of the Holy Bible which was sent to the apostles and disciples from God.  You do not believe it, and that is your right.  Jesus warned of false prophets who would follow him, and warned us to beware of them. 
 
Hasan, we will just have to agree to disagree.  This dialogue is a stalemate.  You are devoted to your faith, and I am just as devoted to mine.
 
I wish you peace.
 
Patty
 
Dear Patty,
the purpose of whole this hard work is not to say "I believe this and you believe that and we are not going to agree with each other, and yet keep bringing up issues!" rather to back up our claims upon which we profess to build our faiths.
You made a claim, backed it up by a source. The same source should not contradict it, if it does then either: your claim is not true, or your source is inconsistant.  There is no hidden truth about it other than that.
 
Simple truth of what we discussed above is that you through a Bible quote claimed that Jesus to be worshipped, I through another quote from the same book showed you that it is not to be true, and in fact God, the Father is the only one to be worshipped. Now without taking sides, your claim was proven wrong dear, plain and simple.
 
If I claim, which I do that only God, whom Bible refers as 'Father' is to be worshipped according to the Quran, and then you happen to find a quote that shows somone else to be worshipped, then you have proved me wrong, that simple.
 
Dear, first we have to test and prove a claim we make before we put our trust, and everything else into it.
 
Let us apply that simple rule, what we expect when we sign next credit card sales reciept, or a bank, car or legal document. When we sign it after reading /knowing/ understanding and making sure it does not have a descripency we don't get surpises like we do otherwise, when we don't pay attention and sign without reading or understanding it. Is hereafter of less value, or we jsut don't believe it to be true??
 
Hasan
 
 
There is no worship of anyone other than God, Hasan.  The point you cannot understand or believe is the Trinity.  Jesus IS God.  So is the Holy Spirit.  We pray, "Praise the Holy Trinity, UNDIVIDED UNITY, etc., but this is a concept you cannot grasp, it takes a great amount of faith, it is a mystery....and without belief in the Trinity you are confusing the sameness of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.  I cannot explain it to you, obviously.  Perhaps someone with more elequent speech will be more successful.  Jesus is God "The Father and I are ONE."
 
Kind Regards,
Patty
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2008 at 10:07am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Dear Ali,
 
You stated this
 
"We believe only in those parts of Bible which are closest to Quran.We donot reject a Bible as a whole."
 
Uh, huh.....well it speaks volumes to know that you "pick and choose" which parts of the Bible to believe and which to disregard.  No, the Bible is inspired by God.  Every single word of it.  How easy it would be to say "I think I'll believe God/Jesus said this, but I don't like that part, so I'll reject it."  It is therefore a moot point to have a mature dialogue when you do not believe the inspired word of God.
 
Peace to you,
Patty
 


 To PattyaMainer

 Bible inspired word of God?Who says that?And by the way which Bible you are talking about?Are you talking about Protestant Bible which contains 66 books?or you are talking about Catholic Bible which contains 73 books?Which Bible or the books are inspired?Is it the Greek Orthodox,Ethiopic,Coptic,or the Syriac?

 I think you need to know about the history of the Bible.

 Visit:
 
Textual Integrity Of The Bible
 http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 06 December 2008 at 10:16am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer


There is no worship of anyone other than God, Hasan.  The point you cannot understand or believe is the Trinity.  Jesus IS God.  So is the Holy Spirit.  We pray, "Praise the Holy Trinity, UNDIVIDED UNITY, etc., but this is a concept you cannot grasp, it takes a great amount of faith, it is a mystery....


 Why isn't the trinity Logical? (It doesn't make sense).
 
How can people believe in the trinity if they don't understand it?
 
If we don't need to understand the trinity and we need to just believe, then  why did god give us a brain?

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

and without belief in the Trinity you are confusing the sameness of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.  I cannot explain it to you, obviously.  Perhaps someone with more elequent speech will be more successful.  Jesus is God "The Father and I are ONE."
 
Kind Regards,
Patty


 Claim 1>. Jesus says, " I and the Father are One (John 10:30)."

It is claimed on the basis of this quotation (which is almost always presented without its context) that Jesus was claiming equality with God. The problem with this assertion is that the context has been taken out, either deliberately or out of ignorance.

Beginning at verse 23 of the Gospel of John, chapter 10 we read (in the context of 10:30) about Jesus talking to the Jews. In verse 28, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states: "...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29)My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30) I and the Father are One."

The above verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus.
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 07 December 2008 at 4:45am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Dear Ali,
 
You stated this
 
"We believe only in those parts of Bible which are closest to Quran.We donot reject a Bible as a whole."
 
Uh, huh.....well it speaks volumes to know that you "pick and choose" which parts of the Bible to believe and which to disregard.  No, the Bible is inspired by God.  Every single word of it.  How easy it would be to say "I think I'll believe God/Jesus said this, but I don't like that part, so I'll reject it."  It is therefore a moot point to have a mature dialogue when you do not believe the inspired word of God.
 
Peace to you,
Patty
 


 To PattyaMainer

 Bible inspired word of God?Who says that?And by the way which Bible you are talking about?Are you talking about Protestant Bible which contains 66 books?or you are talking about Catholic Bible which contains 73 books?Which Bible or the books are inspired?Is it the Greek Orthodox,Ethiopic,Coptic,or the Syriac?

 I think you need to know about the history of the Bible.

 Visit:
 
Textual Integrity Of The Bible
 http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/
 
I believe in the Catholic Bible, of course.  Ali, I have studied the Bible and the history of the life of Jesus, the Holy Land, tradition, culture, etc., etc., longer than you havae probably been alive.  You do not believe and YOU take the true meaing of the Bible out of context.  So, you think I need to kow the history of the bible?  This did give me a little chuckle!  I cannot discuss my Bible with you when you have been convinced it is a false book.  What's to discuss?  You don't believe it, and nothing I could present would change your mind.  Yes you believe everything you read in the Qur'an without question.  I could present much evidence and pose many questions as to discrepancies and false statements in your Holy Book, but out of respect for your religion and beliefs I choose not to do so.
 
Peace,
Patty
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2008 at 9:34am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
I believe in the Catholic Bible, of course.  Ali, I have studied the Bible and the history of the life of Jesus, the Holy Land, tradition, culture, etc., etc., longer than you havae probably been alive.  You do not believe and YOU take the true meaing of the Bible out of context.  So, you think I need to kow the history of the bible?  This did give me a little chuckle!  I cannot discuss my Bible with you when you have been convinced it is a false book.  What's to discuss?  You don't believe it, and nothing I could present would change your mind.  Yes you believe everything you read in the Qur'an without question.  I could present much evidence and pose many questions as to discrepancies and false statements in your Holy Book, but out of respect for your religion and beliefs I choose not to do so.
 
Peace,
Patty


 So here is challenge to prove any single discrepancie and false statement in Quran.

 Here is little example of corruption in your Bible which you supposed to be Holy.

 

mark16_corruption.jpg%20%2854552%20bytes%29

 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9-20;&version=31;)

The above text reads: "The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20."

Now my concern to this corruption and 'answer-the-problem-away' statement is that what are those so-called "reliable early manuscript(s)" and who are the "ancient witnesses"?

 If the "gospel of Mark" was indeed Divine and from GOD Almighty, then we wouldn't have this corruption, that they're admitting above, in it.

Further regarding this Gospel, we read the following commentary about Mark 16:9-20:

"Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark.  They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark.  His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost(From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)"

 The quote "or its original ending has been lost" proves that what we call today "Gospels" were not written by their original authors such as Mark, John, Matthew, etc.It proves that the Gospel had been tampered with by man.

 If John Mark wasn't the one who wrote Mark 16:9-20, then who did? And how can you prove the ownership of the other person?

 

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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2008 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
I believe in the Catholic Bible, of course.  Ali, I have studied the Bible and the history of the life of Jesus, the Holy Land, tradition, culture, etc., etc., longer than you havae probably been alive.  You do not believe and YOU take the true meaing of the Bible out of context.  So, you think I need to kow the history of the bible?  This did give me a little chuckle!  I cannot discuss my Bible with you when you have been convinced it is a false book.  What's to discuss?  You don't believe it, and nothing I could present would change your mind.  Yes you believe everything you read in the Qur'an without question.  I could present much evidence and pose many questions as to discrepancies and false statements in your Holy Book, but out of respect for your religion and beliefs I choose not to do so.
 
Peace,
Patty


 So here is challenge to prove any single discrepancie and false statement in Quran.

 Here is little example of corruption in your Bible which you supposed to be Holy.

 

mark16_corruption.jpg%20%2854552%20bytes%29

 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9-20;&version=31;)

The above text reads: "The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20."

Now my concern to this corruption and 'answer-the-problem-away' statement is that what are those so-called "reliable early manuscript(s)" and who are the "ancient witnesses"?

 If the "gospel of Mark" was indeed Divine and from GOD Almighty, then we wouldn't have this corruption, that they're admitting above, in it.

Further regarding this Gospel, we read the following commentary about Mark 16:9-20:

"Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark.  They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark.  His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost(From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)"

 The quote "or its original ending has been lost" proves that what we call today "Gospels" were not written by their original authors such as Mark, John, Matthew, etc.It proves that the Gospel had been tampered with by man.

 If John Mark wasn't the one who wrote Mark 16:9-20, then who did? And how can you prove the ownership of the other person?

 

 
This has been given great study by theologians from the Vatican.  Here is one brief response:
 
This passage of Mark 16:9-20 is sometimes called "The Longer Ending". This designation is in comparison to the shorter ending found in some less important manuscripts.

Citations from the early Church Fathers indicate that this passage was composed in the first century. The vocabulary and style of the passage, however, indicate that it was written by someone other than Mark.

The issue, however, is not really whether or not Mark wrote the passage or if it was added later. The only real issue is whether is belongs in the canon of inspired Sacred Scripture.

Tradition has always considered this passage as Scripture, but if there were any doubts the Council of Trent officially and infallibly declared this passage to be part of the canon of Mark.

The passage certainly is a true statement. The footnotes of the NAB remark: "It is, in essence a general resume of the material concerning the appearances of the risen Jesus, refelcting, in particular, traditions found in Luke 24 and John 20."

Bottomline: it looks like Mark did not write this passage of Mark 16:9-20, but nevertheless the Church has declared the passage to be Sacred Scripture.
 
Bro. Ignatius Mary
 
 
Kind Regards,
Patty
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2008 at 4:06pm
Dear Patty,
 
you wrote:
 " There is no worship of anyone other than God, Hasan."
Good, you say that, but it needs to show in our practice as such.
 
 "The point you cannot understand or believe is the Trinity.  Jesus IS God.  So is the Holy Spirit."
 
Look Patty, common sense tells us that someone who is born to another human. Ate, walked around, worshiped his creator, cried and called for help to God cannot be God.
Per your insistance suppose I take your claim serious for a moment, you are unable to give me a single prove from the book you believe it says so. Where, have you found a verse where Jesus, the servant of God even claimed to be God? If you cannot bring out a prove to back up your claim. I request you not to make such a false claim because you heard others do that.
You may be older and more knowledgeable than many of us, but does that make you right for sure, I would be careful making any claims rather try to bring out evidance to support my claim or admit that I have been led by other without poofs or knowledge.
It is not that I am slow at learning thus unable to grasp Trinity. My dear Patty, its something many devout Christians themselves don't understand, let alone to convince another. Many former Christians have told me that they never grasped what it was rather were told that it was, and it was a mystry.
I don't know about you but I would not sign my next lease if I see any blanks or unclear contents in there and am told not to worry, its just a mystry, just sign it you will be fine."  No thank you. Its funny how lightly we take something with graver consequences.
 
Jesus is God "The Father and I are ONE."
Are you kidding me with that one? Where did Jesus said, "I am God worship me in that quote" Obviously if (as you claim) He was God, He would tell others about it and tell them to worship him. God has addressed to mankind, and told them throughout (in Bible and in Quran as well) " I am your God, worship me. And you should not take anyone else as God"
Now, if Jesus was God, as you claim, where is that claim as it should be: " I am Jesus, your God, you should worship me"?????
And that "one" thing don't fulfill the claim just look at this quote:

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name— the name you gave me— so that they may be one as we are one.

 
And remember, its not about faith or this and that. Its two adults trying to make their points. You claim he was God, but you have no convincing prove of that. Should we still believe you because you are older than most of us, know more and have been reading Bible before I opened my eyes in this world, are a white American lady, living in Maine? I respect all of that my dear, but we are talking here something as simple as 2+2 in my opinion.
Your claim of Jesus being God, is without a proof, but I have given you saveral quotes to show you (and that's according to the same book you believe) that Jesus was a man, a prophet, a great guide for mankind, born to a virgin, Virgin Mary, a great woman, a human who did not worship her son.
 
May God guide us all to the truth, our only saviour.
 
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 08 December 2008 at 4:40pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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