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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: THE BIBLE SAYS TO WORSHIP JESUS IS IDOLAT Post Reply Post New Topic
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2008 at 2:55am
Originally posted by thomasd

Originally posted by minuteman

   Nobody can pray to any one but God. By the word pray, perhaps you mean calling them only in prayers. Even that is wrong if they are no more alive. We cannot call them and reqest them for anything at all if they are not alive. If any such person is living then it is alright to approach him for prayers so that he will pray to God for our purpose (our need to be granted).  I do not know if I have explained it well or not.

yes, your meaning is clear, and I agree with you, that we should not call on the dead to intercede with God on our behalf. yet prayer is not limited to being an act of worship, and so I also do not believe that asking a request of a dead saint is idolatrous or blasphemous.
 
 You have agreed and then disagreed. I stress the point again for your understanding that we Muslims do not call any dead man to intercede on our behalf. We always pray to God only and ask everything from HIm. Otherwise, if we have a living leader, we may speak to him or write to him requesting him to pray to The God for our such and such need.
 
 But your last sentence means much different. You still suggest that it is alright to call any one who has passed away to intercede with God on our behalf. That is not possible. Even some Muslims may also be believeing the same thing as you do. But I do not do that. Intercession is another matter. It is only to be done when God permits any one. Not before that. Thanks.


Edited by minuteman - 17 July 2008 at 2:56am
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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thomasd
 
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Quote thomasd Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2008 at 5:43am
Originally posted by minuteman

You have agreed and then disagreed.

I agreed that praying to saints isn't a spiritually healthy practice. I disagreed with your actual definition of prayer.

Originally posted by minuteman

I stress the point again for your understanding that we Muslims do not call any dead man to intercede on our behalf. We always pray to God only and ask everything from HIm. Otherwise, if we have a living leader, we may speak to him or write to him requesting him to pray to The God for our such and such need.

yes, me too.

Originally posted by minuteman

But your last sentence means much different. You still suggest that it is alright to call any one who has passed away to intercede with God on our behalf.

I suggest that it is neither idolatrous nor blasphemous (which is what the original topic was about).
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robin
 
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2008 at 4:50am
Originally posted by thomasd

Originally posted by robin

That is not quite right as Cahtloics pray to mary and the saints, that is an act of worship!

any conversation with God (or other spiritual beings) is prayer, regardless of whether or not it is intended as worship, to express thanks, or to ask for something.

Catholics (if there are any of you out there and I'm slightly wrong in my explanation of this, correct me), believe that the saints have a sort of direct line to God (which we all do really...), and that they have been given power by God to do miracles, and so when they pray to saints they are asking them to relay a request to God, or to perform small miracles.

I personally don't hold that belief...God cares about all of us and is always listening to our requests, but I don't see anything idolatrous about it.
 
The Bible says:-
 
Colossians 1:3
We thank God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ always when we pray for YOU,
 
1 Thessalonians 1:2
We always thank God when we make mention concerning all of YOU in our prayers,
 
2 Corinthians 13:7
Now we pray to God . . .
 
Prayers to anyone else other than Almighty God are of no use as the Bible sets the pattern for all Christians; even Jesus prayed to Almighty God and he is:-
 
1 Peter 2:21
In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.
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thomasd
 
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Quote thomasd Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2008 at 8:21am
Originally posted by robin

Prayers to anyone else other than Almighty God are of no use as the Bible sets the pattern for all Christians; even Jesus prayed to Almighty God and he is:-

Christian's firmly believe that Jesus and the Almighty God are the same, thus by our beliefs praying to Jesus is equivalent to praying to the Almighty God.
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robin
 
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2008 at 7:53am

Originally posted by thomasd

Originally posted by robin

Prayers to anyone else other than Almighty God are of no use as the Bible sets the pattern for all Christians; even Jesus prayed to Almighty God and he is:-

Christian's firmly believe that Jesus and the Almighty God are the same, thus by our beliefs praying to Jesus is equivalent to praying to the Almighty God.

 

The followers of Jesus do not agree with you, nor Jesus himself:-

John 4:23-24
Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth."
 
 
True christians only worship the Father as Jesus said!
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PattyaMainer
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 03 August 2008 at 6:55pm

No, you are wrong, Robin.  With all due respect, you, like many other non-Catholics incorrectly believe we pray to saints and the Holy Mother of God.  That is NOT SO.  We ask their help for many problems/situations in life.  It is the same as asking a dear friend or relative to "please pray for me."  Nothing more, nothing less.  Mary is in Heaven, very close to our Lord, as are the saints.  We believe they are so close to God, and if we ask them to pray for us too, we are greatly increasing our hope of having our problems, whatever they may be, solved.  You should read a good Catechism because you are woefully lacking in your knowledge of what true, devoted Catholics really believe.  This is not uncommon, but it is very sad!  I mean no disrespect or harshness toward you....but I must speak up when I see my religion being misrepresented.  I trust you understand.

God's Peace,

Patty

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PattyaMainer
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 03 August 2008 at 7:09pm
I would humbly add this Scripture from Phillipians regarding our Lord, Jesus Christ:
 
Philippians 2 >>
King James Bible
 

1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2008 at 5:53am
Patty it is interesting what you wrote..
 
Is it not St. Anthony the patron saint of lost things? There is a Saint known for this.
 
Still why pray to a person to help you when you can pray to God?
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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