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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2005 at 5:22am

So what about Ghadir? Let's hear the context for that speech (which has been transmitted through hundreds of chains of narration, both Sunni and Shia). Will you say that the prophets stopped (even Sunni's agree on this low number) over 10,000 people in the middle of the desert to tell them that "Ali is your friend"! when this fact had already been established and his "brotherhood with Ali (a.s.)" was already well  known.

How easily our Sunni brothers disregard the clear and direct words of the Messenger of Allah (s.w.a.).

"...my brother 'Ali as my vizier."

"O my people! This 'Ali is my brother, my successor and my caliph amongst you. Listen to him and obey him.''

'Ali, the son of Abu Talib, is my brother and my wasiyy (successor) and my caliph, and the Imam after me."

"Aliyyun wa shi'atuhu humu 'l-fa'izun.

"'Ali and his party (Shi `ah) will be the triumphant ones." [2]

 Say (Oh Prophet): "I do not ask of you a wage for this, except love for (my) relatives." (ash-Shura, 42:23 )

Abu Na'im narrates that the Prophet addressed the Ansar and said: "Shall I guide you to something which, if you grasp it after me, you will never go astray?" They said: "Yes, O Messenger of Allah ! " He said: "It is 'Ali: love him with the love (you have) for me, and respect him with the respect (you have) for me. For God has ordered me through Gabriel to tell you this."

Hilyatu 'l-awliya', vol.1, p.63.

Love for and disobedience to a person cannot live in the same heart.

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Quote Ayubi1187 Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2005 at 6:45am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki

So what about Ghadir? Let's hear the context for that speech (which has been transmitted through hundreds of chains of narration, both Sunni and Shia). Will you say that the prophets stopped (even Sunni's agree on this low number) over 10,000 people in the middle of the desert to tell them that "Ali is your friend"! when this fact had already been established and his "brotherhood with Ali (a.s.)" was already well  known.



What happened with the fantastic 100 000 people shia used tel people? have you ever toughed about why we never see this as appointment of caliph? because we know and follow the historical context of this sayings. Even Ali(ra) never made any reference to this event. The question is why all the sunni refernce you gave non of them interpreted as appointment? Its because they know why it was said. As i said many times before any one can make his own history if he removes the context. I know your mullahs never gives you the complete hadith when they want to prove you something. They only cut the part they like. 90% of the references you gave gives you detail explanation. her i will quote for you the words shia like so much and the context ayatollahs omit.

"The Messenger of Allah sent to Yemen two divisions of army, one under the command of Ali ibn Abu Talib and the other under the Command of Khalid ibn Walid, and said to them: Ali shall command both the divisions if they meet and eacg will be in charge of his division when seperate. We encountered the tribe of Banu Zubaydah of Yemen and we fought desperately. The Muslims gained victory over the polytheists and we killed their warriors and made their women and children prisoners of war. 'Ali set aside a female prisoner of war for himself. Khalid wrote a letter to the Messenger of Allah, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity, informing him of the affair and gave me the letter to convey it. When I came to the Prophet, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity, I delivered the letter, which he persued. I noticed the signs of anger in his face and submitted: O Messenger of Allah I beg your pardon. You sent me with a person and commanded me to obey him in bringing this letter. The Messenger of Allah, Allah's blessings and peace be upon him and his posterity, then said: Do not reprove him for he is from me and I am from him and he is your master after me, and he repeated it again." her is all the authentic references that mention this context with different wordings
Musnad, Ahmad Hanbal, vol. 4 p. 438 Caption: The Tradition of Imran
- Tabari, The Last Years of the Prophet, IX, p. 111
- Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad, p. 650
- Musnad, Ahmad Hanbal, vol. 5 p. 356
- Mustadrak, Hakim, vol. 3 p. 110
- Nasai, p. 17
- Mustadrak, Hakim, vol. 11 p. 11,
al Dhahabi in his
Talkhis al Mustadrak,
- Kanz al Ummal, Muttaqi al Hindi, vol. 6 p. 400
-Muhammad, His Life based on the earliest sources

The only way shia can prove something is by omitting, hiding, concocting and lying. Shia likes to quote the exaggerated and fabricated hadith about ghadir khum and then gives references to all authentic references that gives the true wordings and context.
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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2005 at 7:15am

" he is your master after me"

Are you reading what you are posting?

This hadith is NOT the third time, it is only part of it. I am still waiting for your attempt to discredit the famous even of Ghadir Khum (or do you deny that it happened all together).

By the way, Imam Ali (a.s.) on many, many occassions mentions his appointment by the Prophet at Ghadir, however, all of these occassions are conviently missing from the collections that our Sunni brothers read. It is curious that Imam Ali (a.s.) "never mentioned" his appointment at Ghadir, however, Abu Harirah seemed to have had a "better memory".

خرج الحافظ أبويعلى الموصلي قال: ثنا أبوبكر بن أبي شيبة أنبأنا شريك عن أبي يزيد داود الاودي عن أبيه يزيد الاودي ، وأخرج الحافظ ‏إبن جرير الطبري عن أبي كريب عن شاذان عن شريك عن إدريس وأخيه داود عن أبيهما يزيد الاودي قال: دخل أبوهريرة المسجد فاجتمع ‏إليه الناس فقام اليه شاب فقال: انشدك بالله سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول: من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه، أللهم وال من والاه، ‏وعاد من عاداه؟ قال: فقال: إني أشهد أني سمعت رسول الله يقول: من كنت مولاه ، فعلي مولاه، أللهم وال من والاه، وعاد من عاداه.‏



Al-Hafiz Abu Ya`la al-Mawsili quoted saying: Abu Bakr b. Abi Shayba narrated to us that Sharik told us from Abi Yazid Dawud al-Awdi from his father Yazid al-Awdi; and al-Hafiz Ibn Jarir al-Tabari quoted from Abi Kurayb from Shadhan from Sharik from Idris and his brother Dawud, from their father Yazid al-Awdi, who said:

Abu Hurayra entered the mosque and the people gathered around him. A young man stood up and said: "I adjure you by Allah did you hear the Messenger of Allah, blessings and salutations of Allah on him, say: Of whomsoever I am master, `Ali is his master. O Allah, befriend one who befriends him and be at enmity with one who is at enmity with him?" He (Yazid) said: He (Abu Hurayra) said: "I bear witness that I heard the Messenger of Allah say: Of whomsoever I am master, `Ali is his master. O Allah, befriend one who befriends him and be at enmity with one who is at enmity with him."

Ibn Kathir, `Imad al-Din Isma`il b. `Umar b. Kathir b. Daw', al-Qarashi al-Dimashqi

Al-Bidayah wa'l-Nihayah fi al-Ta'rikh  
Cairo: Matba`at al-Sa`adah (14 vols), 1932-  vol. 5, p. 214   
http://al-islam.org/sources/default.asp?person=289&ed=66 7&pg=v5p214.gif

al-Tabari, Muhammad b. Jarir, Abu Ja`far al-Tabari
(d. 310 AH/922 CE)

Muhammad b. al-`Ala' b. Kurayb, Abu Kurayb al-Hamdani al-Kufi
(d. 248 AH/862 CE)

Al-'Aswad b. `Amir Shadhan, Abu `Abd al-Rahman al-Wasiti al-Shami
(d. 208 AH/823 CE)

Sharik b. `Abd Allah b. Abi Sharik (Sinan ?), Abu `Abd Allah al-Qadi al-Nakha`i al-Kufi
(d. 177 AH/793 CE)

Dawud b. Yazid b. `Abd al-Rahman, Abu Yazid al-'Awdi al-Za`afiri al-A`raj
(d. 150 AH/767 CE)

Yazid b. `Abd al-Rahman b. al-'Aswad, Abu Dawud al-'Awdi al-Za`afari al-Kufi
(d. 0 AH/622 CE)

Abu Hurayrah, `Abd al-Rahman b. Sakhr
(d. 59 AH/679 CE)

 

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Quote Ayubi1187 Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2005 at 8:56am
No wonder nothing is getting your head. The event of ghadir and khum is historical fact and no one is discrediting it. The problem with you is you dont want to read the context which explainers why he said this. The prophet was not making announcement of his successor it was in regard to certain unjustified complaints against Ali(ra) read the words in its context.
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Quote Ayubi1187 Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2005 at 9:03am
Even the prophets(saw) words shows that its not about caliphat because no where is the word calip mentioned. It is only shia who interpret the word mowali to mean caliph.
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2005 at 5:37am
So is someone is appointed by the Holy Messenger (a.s.) as your Mowali, then you can ignore him but if the people elect a Caliph then he must be obeyed? That sounds like the logic of George Bush not Islam.
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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