IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: From where did the trinity teaching come?

Message

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Patty, 
thanks for your effort to clear things up. I have very basic funtamental difference of view on trinity. 
I do not believe Christ himself taught Trinity. As it is absent from any previous prophets' teachings and beliefs. I have asked this question to present form of those who Jesus is said to be, a jew. All previous scriptures lack this very important point or part about God claimed by Christians? 
God does not change in Godhead. God was and is One,  and that's what seams to be universal teachings of all the previous scriptures. This doctrine in my humble opinion if, can only be derived from NT which by the way due to its not so authentic history is I am reluctant to rely upon. It proves to be a new doctrine in terms of describing God, thus I completely disagree with it.

In your description above: Jesus Christ the man you say is inferior to God. Isn't it the human form that is given the name Jesus Chirst to begin with. In other words you are saying that out of three parts of God in Godhead, one is called God, the other Jesus Christ, and the third, the Holy Ghost?

Also, are you saying that Jesus Christ was not God when he was walking upon this earth according to your belief? I want to get this clear from you Patty before I procede. 

Hasan 

My Dear Hasan,

I will answer you tomorrow as best I can.  It is now midnight here in Maine, and I cannot hold my eyes open any longer.  I just don't want you to think I am avoiding the question.  Okay?  See you tomorrow.

God bless,
Patty 

Trinity: Webster’s dictionary gives the following definition of trinity: “The union of three divine persons (or hypostases), the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one divinity, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three Persons (or hypostases as to individuality).” Synonyms sometimes used are triunity, trine, triality. The term “trinity” is formed from “tri,” three, and “nity,” unity. Triunity is a better term than “trinity” because it better expresses the idea of three in one. God is three in one. Hypostases is the plural of hypostasis which means “the substance, the underlying reality, or essence.”

The doctrine of the trinity is truly beyond human comprehension or the limits of our finite minds, but it is nevertheless a vital truth of the Bible. It is a doctrine that is closely connected to other key doctrines like the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. In fact, our salvation is rooted in the mysterious nature of the Godhead who coexists as three distinct Persons all of whom are involved in our salvation in all its aspects, past, present, and future. It encompasses everything we know and practice as Christians—our sanctification, our fellowship, our prayer life, our Bible study, or our corporate worship. That this is true and a precious truth for us to rest in is evident in Paul’s closing benediction in 2 Corinthians 13:14 and in Peter’s salutation and doxology in 1 Peter 1:1-5.

2 Cor. 13:14. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
1 Peter 1:1-5. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

In I John there is this statement:

In Heaven there are three who bear record, God the Father, The Word, the Holy Spirit, AND THESE THREE ARE ONE.

Hasan, I am sure you have heard/read this before, but when St. Phillip asked Jesus to show him the Father, Jesus turned to him and said, Phillip, as much as you know me and still you have to ask....you have seen me, you have also seen the Father.....and Jesus also said, "the Father and I are ONE."  I am paraphrasing here.

So it boils down to a matter of faith and belief....belief in the Holy Bible.  I have studied the Latin Vulgate and it specifically states much about the trinity.  No "trinity" the word is not used....but the meaning is there.  As you are most likely aware the Latin Vulgate is the earliest bible.  I have studied, and am a personal friend of a Jesuit priest who is a biblical scholar.  He has written books on Flavius Josephus and the Jewish Antiquities.  Josephus wrote about Jesus' crucifixion just 30 years after Jesus' death.  Although Josephus was a Jew, he believed (or so he stated) that Jesus was the messiah.

I hope this is some help to you, or at least food for thought.  Please know that I believe with all my heart that all people who steadfastly and wholeheartedly attempt to do God's will shall one day see Him face to face in heaven.....the beatific vision.  You will surely be one of those, Hasan.

God Bless,
Patty

Author	Message
PattyaMainer Female Christian Senior Member Joined: 03 August 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 352	Posted: 23 November 2008 at 6:27pm
	*Originally posted by PattyaMainer* *Originally posted by honeto* Patty, thanks for your effort to clear things up. I have very basic funtamental difference of view on trinity. I do not believe Christ himself taught Trinity. As it is absent from any previous prophets' teachings and beliefs. I have asked this question to present form of those who Jesus is said to be, a jew. All previous scriptures lack this very important point or part about God claimed by Christians? God does not change in Godhead. God was and is One, and that's what seams to be universal teachings of all the previous scriptures. This doctrine in my humble opinion if, can only be derived from NT which by the way due to its not so authentic history is I am reluctant to rely upon. It proves to be a new doctrine in terms of describing God, thus I completely disagree with it. In your description above: Jesus Christ the man you say is inferior to God. Isn't it the human form that is given the name Jesus Chirst to begin with. In other words you are saying that out of three parts of God in Godhead, one is called God, the other Jesus Christ, and the third, the Holy Ghost? Also, are you saying that Jesus Christ was not God when he was walking upon this earth according to your belief? I want to get this clear from you Patty before I procede. Hasan My Dear Hasan, I will answer you tomorrow as best I can. It is now midnight here in Maine, and I cannot hold my eyes open any longer. I just don't want you to think I am avoiding the question. Okay? See you tomorrow. God bless, Patty *Trinity:* Webster’s dictionary gives the following definition of trinity: “The union of three divine persons (or hypostases), the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one divinity, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three Persons (or hypostases as to individuality).” Synonyms sometimes used are triunity, trine, triality. The term “trinity” is formed from “tri,” three, and “nity,” unity. Triunity is a better term than “trinity” because it better expresses the idea of three in one. God is three in one. Hypostases is the plural of hypostasis which means “the substance, the underlying reality, or essence.” The doctrine of the trinity is truly beyond human comprehension or the limits of our finite minds, but it is nevertheless a vital truth of the Bible. It is a doctrine that is closely connected to other key doctrines like the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. In fact, our salvation is rooted in the mysterious nature of the Godhead who coexists as three distinct Persons all of whom are involved in our salvation in all its aspects, past, present, and future. It encompasses everything we know and practice as Christians—our sanctification, our fellowship, our prayer life, our Bible study, or our corporate worship. That this is true and a precious truth for us to rest in is evident in Paul’s closing benediction in 2 Corinthians 13:14 and in Peter’s salutation and doxology in 1 Peter 1:1-5. 2 Cor. 13:14. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. 1 Peter 1:1-5. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In I John there is this statement: In Heaven there are three who bear record, God the Father, The Word, the Holy Spirit, AND THESE THREE ARE ONE. Hasan, I am sure you have heard/read this before, but when St. Phillip asked Jesus to show him the Father, Jesus turned to him and said, Phillip, as much as you know me and still you have to ask....you have seen me, you have also seen the Father.....and Jesus also said, "the Father and I are ONE." I am paraphrasing here. So it boils down to a matter of faith and belief....belief in the Holy Bible. I have studied the Latin Vulgate and it specifically states much about the trinity. No "trinity" the word is not used....but the meaning is there. As you are most likely aware the Latin Vulgate is the earliest bible. I have studied, and am a personal friend of a Jesuit priest who is a biblical scholar. He has written books on Flavius Josephus and the Jewish Antiquities. Josephus wrote about Jesus' crucifixion just 30 years after Jesus' death. Although Josephus was a Jew, he believed (or so he stated) that Jesus was the messiah. I hope this is some help to you, or at least food for thought. Please know that I believe with all my heart that all people who steadfastly and wholeheartedly attempt to do God's will shall one day see Him face to face in heaven.....the beatific vision. You will surely be one of those, Hasan. God Bless, Patty
	"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 24 November 2008 at 12:43pm
	Patty, one question for you, were the Jews or the people of the OT were expecting a Messiah to come or were they expecting God to come on earth? And if they were expecting God to come on earth can you referance it please. I want to know what is your understanding, as I know the asnwer of many of them. By the way 30 years is a lot of gap when it is a matter of word for word. Hasan Edited by honeto - 24 November 2008 at 12:43pm
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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PattyaMainer Female Christian Senior Member Joined: 03 August 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 352	Posted: 24 November 2008 at 12:54pm
	*Originally posted by honeto* Patty, one question for you, were the Jews or the people of the OT were expecting a Messiah to come or were they expecting God to come on earth? And if they were expecting God to come on earth can you referance it please. I want to know what is your understanding, as I know the asnwer of many of them. By the way 30 years is a lot of gap when it is a matter of word for word. Hasan Oh, Hasan, Josephus was alive before the Crucifixion....what I meant was he did not write about it until 30 years later. He was most certainly alive at the time of Jesus though. I have known many Jews (and Muslims). The Jewish people of the OT were told a Messiah would come to redeem them, to save them from their sins. They were not expecting God to come down from Heaven. They are still looking for the Messiah....the Chosen One. Except for the Jews who have converted to Christianity that is. Patty
	"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Angela Female Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2555	Posted: 25 November 2008 at 11:30am
	Actually Patty, The Jewish interpretation of the Messianic Prophecies is that he will be a military leader who will free them from Oppression. It is Christianity that added the redemption from sin. Here is a quote from a Jewish Website.... The Tanakh gives several specifications as to who the messiah will be. He will be a descendent of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Jeremiah 23:5), observant of Jewish law (Isaiah 11:2-5), a righteous judge (Jeremiah 33:15), and a great military leader.
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Nur_Ilahi Senior Member Joined: 19 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1031	Posted: 26 November 2008 at 4:42am
	*Originally posted by Angela* Actually Patty, The Jewish interpretation of the Messianic Prophecies is that he will be a military leader who will free them from Oppression. It is Christianity that added the redemption from sin. Here is a quote from a Jewish Website.... The Tanakh gives several specifications as to who the messiah will be. He will be a descendent of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Jeremiah 23:5), observant of Jewish law (Isaiah 11:2-5), a righteous judge (Jeremiah 33:15), and a great military leader. The only person that suited the above description was MUHAMMAD Salallahualaihiwassalam. He was a great man with all the qualities of a leader. A loving husband, a devoted father, a doting grandfather, a good neighbour, a trustworthy friend, a wise teacher, a just judge, a humble and pious servant of God, a wonderful stateman, a brave warrior and many other traits of a human being. I doubt there is a man that can ever be like him.
	Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.
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Angela Female Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2555	Posted: 26 November 2008 at 11:02am
	However, Muhammed (pbuh) did not claim to be the Messiah and actually recognized Jesus as the Messiah and that he would return. Its not that Jesus is not the Messiah. Its how people interpret the prophecy of the Messiah (or Annointed one). The interpretations as to the purpose that Jesus played and who he was brought to vary. No matter which of the two faiths you believe, he was sent to be a messanger to the Jews. They rejected him and persecuted him, not heading his message. This is that beautiful thing that Muslims and Christians have in common. We both recognize the message and grace of Jesus. My own faith rejects the Trinity. However, we still recognize him as the Son of God. But, prophet, son of god or not... he is the Messiah... He will return...
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Angela Female Senior Member Joined: 11 July 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2555	Posted: 26 November 2008 at 11:03am
	*Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi* Salallahualaihiwassalam. He was a great man with all the qualities of a leader. A loving husband, a devoted father, a doting grandfather, a good neighbour, a trustworthy friend, a wise teacher, a just judge, a humble and pious servant of God, a wonderful stateman, a brave warrior and many other traits of a human being. I doubt there is a man that can ever be like him. You would be surprised about the similarities between Muhammed (pbuh) and Brother Joseph.
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Mansoor_ali Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 582	Posted: 26 November 2008 at 11:39am
	*Originally posted by Angela* However, Muhammed (pbuh) did not claim to be the Messiah and actually recognized Jesus as the Messiah and that he would return. Its not that Jesus is not the Messiah. Its how people interpret the prophecy of the Messiah (or Annointed one). The interpretations as to the purpose that Jesus played and who he was brought to vary. No matter which of the two faiths you believe, he was sent to be a messanger to the Jews. They rejected him and persecuted him, not heading his message. This is that beautiful thing that Muslims and Christians have in common. We both recognize the message and grace of Jesus. My own faith rejects the Trinity. However, we still recognize him as the Son of God. But, prophet, son of god or not... he is the Messiah... He will return... Then you must follow Muhammad(The last Prophet) because he is prophecised by Jesus Christ himself. The Bible's Last Prophet http://islamicweb.com/index.asp?folder=bible
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