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PattyaMainer
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 11 September 2008 at 11:56am
Originally posted by minuteman

 
 robin, you have again a long winding lecture about Jesus is God or not. In the end you have said:
 
 

So we can ask again, who is Jesus talking about, as it cannot be himself"  He is talking about Almighty God, thus Jesus cannot be Almighty God!

 Do we understand that Jesus is not God or Jesus is not Almighty God. What is the opinion (short reply) of the YW's (Ya Huwa's witnesses). As you know, there is only one God. We cannot have an Almighty God and a less mighty God.

 

 
I can repeat this only one more time.  The Trinity is composed of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit....and THESE THREE ARE ONE.  They are three in one.  They have three different and separate entities, but are combined to form ONE trinity.  I could ramble about ice, water, frost, etc., but I will let this topic go by saying you either have faith to believe what is said in the Bible...in the Holy Gospels, or you don't.  I cannot force you to believe or to understand.  It takes great faith, as do many verses in many Bibles.   It takes a great understanding of the history of that day when Jesus walked the earth, and I am woefully inept at explaining this to anyone.  I know what I have thoroughly studied, prayed over, and accept as truth.  Each religion on earth I have studied, but the Lord our Christ has touched me deeply, and I have no doubt that His word is the correct one.  I wanted to deny it, because it takes so much faith and discipline to lead a devout Christian/Catholic life, but in my heart I simply could not turn my back on what I have found to be the words of God.  I wish you all peace in the religion of your choice.  You are all in my heart and in my prayers.
 
God's Peace Always,
Patty
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 12 September 2008 at 12:43am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by minuteman

 
 robin, you have again a long winding lecture about Jesus is God or not. In the end you have said:
 
 

So we can ask again, who is Jesus talking about, as it cannot be himself"  He is talking about Almighty God, thus Jesus cannot be Almighty God!

 Do we understand that Jesus is not God or Jesus is not Almighty God. What is the opinion (short reply) of the YW's (Ya Huwa's witnesses). As you know, there is only one God. We cannot have an Almighty God and a less mighty God.

 

 
I can repeat this only one more time.  The Trinity is composed of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit....and THESE THREE ARE ONE.  They are three in one.  They have three different and separate entities, but are combined to form ONE trinity.  I could ramble about ice, water, frost, etc., but I will let this topic go by saying you either have faith to believe what is said in the Bible...in the Holy Gospels, or you don't.  I cannot force you to believe or to understand.  It takes great faith, as do many verses in many Bibles.   It takes a great understanding of the history of that day when Jesus walked the earth, and I am woefully inept at explaining this to anyone.  I know what I have thoroughly studied, prayed over, and accept as truth.  Each religion on earth I have studied, but the Lord our Christ has touched me deeply, and I have no doubt that His word is the correct one.  I wanted to deny it, because it takes so much faith and discipline to lead a devout Christian/Catholic life, but in my heart I simply could not turn my back on what I have found to be the words of God.  I wish you all peace in the religion of your choice.  You are all in my heart and in my prayers.
 
God's Peace Always,
Patty
 
THE BIBLE SAY NOT TO THE ABOVE!
 
Jesus, The Son, is subordinate to God The Father thus he cannot be part of any trinity as in the trinity they are all equal in power (see A) which the bible does not teach (see B):-
 
 

A     The Doctrine of the Trinity (or Bitarian ideas) has been called 'the central teaching of the church' and being as it appears as Article 1 in the "Articles of Religion" for the Church of England in their book of 'Common Prayer' this seems to be true, it reads as follows:-

"1. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity.

There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passion; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

 

B   

The one having power, or the  “supreme” one over Jesus Christ is Jehovah!

 

N.W.T. 1 Corinthians 11:3   “But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.

 

Other rendering from e-Sword of 1 Cor. 11:3

 

Good News Bible   But I want you to understand that Christ is supreme over every man, the husband is supreme over his wife, and God is supreme over Christ.”

 

G.N.T.-WH+  θελω2309 V-PAI-1S  δε1161 CONJ  υμας5209 P-2AP  ειδεναι1492 V-RAN  οτι3754 CONJ  παντος3956 A-GSM  ανδρος435 N-GSM  η3588 T-NSF  κεφαλη2776 N-NSF  ο3588 T-NSM  χριστος5547 N-NSM  εστιν2076 V-PXI-3S  κεφαλη2776 N-NSF  δε1161 CONJ  γυναικος1135 N-GSF  ο3588 T-NSM  ανηρ435 N-NSM  κεφαλη2776 N-NSF  δε1161 CONJ  του3588 T-GSM  χριστου5547 N-GSM  ο3588 T-NSM  θεος2316 N-NSM  

 

God’s Word   However, I want you to realize that Christ has authority over every man, a husband has authority over his wife, and God has authority over Christ.”

 

Hebrew Name Version  But I would have you know that the head of every man is Messiah, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Messiah is God.

 

K.J.V.+   But1161 I would2309 have you5209 know,1492 that3754 the3588 head2776 of every3956 man435 is2076 Christ;5547 and1161 the head2776 of the woman1135 is the3588 man;435 and1161 the head2776 of Christ5547 is God.2316.”

 

1912 Weymouth N.T.   I would have you know, however, that of every man, Christ is the Head, that of a woman her husband is the Head, and that God is Christ's Head.”

 

Contemporary English Version   Now I want you to know that Christ is the head over all men, and a man is the head over a woman. But God is the head over Christ.”

 

 

“HEAD”:-

J. Strong’s Greek  #2776 kefalh  kephalē  kef-al-ay'  Probably from the primary word kaptw kaptō (in the sense of seizing); the head (as the part most readily taken hold of), literally or figuratively: - head.

Thayer Definition:

1) the head, both of men and often of animals. Since the loss of the head destroys life, this word is used in the phrases relating to capital and extreme punishment.

2) metaphorically anything supreme, chief, prominent

2a) of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife

2b) of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church

2c) of things: the corner stone

Part of Speech: noun feminine.   A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the primary kapto (in the sense of seizing).   Citing in TDNT: 3:673, 429

 
Note from the ‘Peoples N.T.’ on e-Sword; 1 Cor 11:3:-

“For I would have you to know, etc. The order of rank is that Christ is the center, with the Father above and man below him; and in the family the man is first and the woman second. That is nature's order.”

 

Another example:-

N.W.T. 1 Corinthians 15:24   Brackets added.

"Next, the end, when he (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to his God* (Jehovah) and Father* (Jehovah), when he (Jesus) has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. [*See John 20:17]

25 For he (Jesus) must rule as king until (Jehovah) [God] has put all enemies under his (Jesus') feet.

26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.

27 For (Jehovah) [God] “subjected all things under his (Jesus') feet.” But when he (Jehovah) says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one (Jehovah) who subjected all things to him (Jesus).

28 But when all things will have been subjected to him (Jesus), then the Son (Jesus) himself will also subject himself (Jesus) to the One (Jehovah) who subjected all things to him (Jesus), that (Jehovah) God may be all things to everyone.”

 

 

 

In other words, Jesus Christ does as he is told to do by his superior, Jehovah God!



Edited by robin - 12 September 2008 at 12:44am
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 12 September 2008 at 12:52am
Originally posted by Nazarene

the trinity explaind by jesus

Lection LXVI

             Iesus Again Teacheth His Disciples
             Concerning The Nature Of God
                      The Two In One

    1. AGAIN Jesus taught them saying, God hath raised up witnesses to the truth in every nation and every age, that all might know the will of the Eternal and do it, and after that, enter into the kingdom, to be rulers and workers with the Eternal,


    2. God is Power, Love and Wisdom, and these three are One. God is Truth, Goodness and Beauty, and these three are One.

    3. God is Justice, Knowledge and Purity, and these three are One. God is Splendour, Compassion and Holiness, and these three are One.

    4. And these four Trinities are One in the hidden Deity, the Perfect, the Infinite, the Onely.

    5. Likewise in every man who is perfected, there are three persons, that of the son, that of the spouse. and that of the father, and these three are one.

    6. So in every woman who is Perfected are there three persons, that of the daughter, that of the bride, and that of the mother and these three are one; and the man and the woman are one, even as God is One

    7. Thus it is with God the Father-Mother, in Whom is neither male nor female and in Whom is both, and each is threefold,  and all are One in the hidden Unity.

    8. Marvel not at this, for as it is above so it is below, and as it is below so it is above, and that which is on earth is so, because it is so in Heaven.

    9. Again I say unto you, I and My Bride are one, even as Maria Magdalena, whom I have chosen and sanctified unto Myself as a type, is one with Me; I and My Church are One. And the Church is the elect of humanity for the salvation of all.

    10. The Church of the first born is the Maria of God. Thus saith the Eternal, She is My Mother and she hath ever conceived Me, and brought Me forth as Her Son in every age and clime. She is My Bride, ever one in Holy Union with Me her Spouse. She is My Daughter, for she hath ever issued and proceeded from Me her Father, rejoicing in Me.

    11. And these two Trinities are One in the Eternal, and are strewn forth in each man and woman who are made perfect, ever being born of God, and rejoicing in light, ever being lifted up and made one with God, ever conceiving and bringing forth God for the salvation of the many.
 
    12. This is the Mystery of the Trinity in Humanity, and moreover in every individual child of man must be accomplished the mystery of God, ever witnessing to the light, suffering for the truth, ascending into Heaven, and sending forth the Spirit of Truth And this is the path of salvation, for the kingdom of God is within.

    13. And one said unto him, Master, when shall the kingdom come? And he answered and said, When that which is without shall be as that which is within, and that which is within shall be as that which is without, and, the male with the female, neither male nor female, but the two in One. They who have ears to hear let them hear
                         there's so much to tell,so much to talk about.
                         all my love ,leland
 
 
TO ANCIENT PAGAN EGYPT (WHOM GOD HATED) FOR THE TRINITY OF THE CHURCHIES!
 

Sir E. A. Wallis Budge further goes on to say the following about the Egyptian god Thoth and how it parallels Plato's Logos which was later absorbed into the Churches doctrines as Plato received his ideas via the Egyptians:-

"We are now able to sum up the attributes ascribed to Thoth, and to consider how he employed them in connection with the dead. In first place, he was held to be both the heart and the tongue of Ra, that is to say, he was the reason and the mental powers of the god, and also the means by which t their will was translated into speech ; from one aspect he was speech itself, and in later times he may well have represented, as Dr. Birch said, the logoV of Plato. In every legend in which Thoth takes a prominent part we see that it is he who speaks the word that results in the wishes of Ra being carried into effect, and it is evident that when he had once given the word of commend that command could not fail to be carried out by one means or the other."-'The gods of the Egyptians' by E.A. Wallis Budge Vol. 1 p.407

parallel to the above they conceived the nature of the "One Great God" is via the trinity concept as note in the book 'Before Philosophy' by H. Frankfort, Mrs. H. Frankfort, J.A. Wilson, T. Jacobsen page 75:-

"The fluidity of Egyptian concepts and the tendency to synthesize divergent elements have led some Egyptologists to believe that Egyptians were really monotheistic, that all gods were subsumed into a single god. In a moment we shall present a text that would seem to be a prime document for this thesis of essential monotheism, but we wish to preface it by insisting that it is not a matter of a single god but of single nature of observed phenomena in the universe, with the clear possibility of exchange and substitution. With relation to gods and men the Egyptians were monophysites : many men and many gods, but all ultimately one nature.

The text that we mentioned presents an Egyptian trinity : the three gods who were supremely important at one period of history all taken up into a single divinity. The purpose was to enlarge the god Amon by incorporating the other two gods into his being. 'All gods are three - Amon, Re, and Ptah - and they have no second'. Amon in the name of this single being, Re in his head, and Ptah in his body. 'Only he is : Amon and Re (and Ptah), togther three.' [Leyden Amon Hymn, 4:21-26.] Three gods are one, and yet the Egyptians elsewhere insists on the separate identity of each of the three."

Further to quote renowned Egyptian Archaeologist Sir W. M. Flinders Pertie:-

*"God is not Mind, or spirit or Light, but is the cause of Mind, Spirit, and Light No other so-called gods or daimons can be in any measure Good, but God only can be Good, as He is the same as Good. God also is the universal Father as Creator. . . . The gods were seen as stars. . . . As Kosmos is the Second God, so Man is the third living thing after the image of the Kosmos. He has feelings with the Second God, and a conception of the First God. Kosmos is by God and in God. Man is by Kosmos and in Kosmos. In none of these is Logos personified, nor Wisdom mentioned. . . . It seems probable that such works belng to 450-350 B.C., as they have none of the marks of later thought.

**We now enter on the next stage, in the Corp. Herm [Corpus Hermeticum], xiii, v, xiv, and i, where these writings introduce the personification of the Divine Logos, but not that of Divine Wisdom Thus it appears that the Logos literature precedes the Wisdom literature, in which the Logos is also found We will first notice the development of doctrine in these works . . . One of the earliest of this class must be "About the Universal Mind" (Corp. Herm., xiii) . . . it must be earlier than 332 B.C. . . . "Unto this Logos, son, thy adoration and thy worship pay."

The Logos also begins to appear in "The Cup" or rather "Font" (Corp. Herm., v). "With Logos (reason) not with hands did the Demiourgos make the universal Kosmos," "Man did excel by reason of the Logos," "Logos indeed among all men He hath distributed."

"The Secret Sermon" (Corp. Herm., xiv) seems to be of the same date [300 B.C.] or rather later. The Logos is a higher principle apparently, as we read "Rejoice, O Son, for by the Power of God thou art being purified for articulation of the Logos. Gnosis of God hath come to us." "Thy Logos sings through me thy praises." "Send thou oblation . . . acceptable to God . . . but add my son too 'through the Logos.' " The Logos seems in this Sermon to be the divine principle. Here we find a development of the doctrine of Conversion; it is no longer being baptized in the Divine Mind, but it is "the tradition of Re-birth"; . . . "How is the author of Re-birth? The Son of God, the One Man, by God's will." . . . At first sight this might be put down as Christian in source; but we have already seen in the Perfect Sermon, which can only be put to 340 B.C. "The Lord and Maker of all . . . from himself made the Second God, the Visible . . . whom he loved as his Son," and the Logos doctrine is far less developed than in Philon.

These allusions naturally bring next to this the "Shepherd of Men" or Poimandres, the best known Hermetic work (Corp. Herm., i) In that the Logos doctrine is further developed. In the Creation "a Holy Logos descends on that Nature, and upward to the light from Moist, Nature leaped pure fire" ; "Earth and water no one could discern, yet were they moved to hear by reason of the Logos pervading them" ; "The Logos that appeared from Mind is Son of God". . . Here the Logos holds the place afterwards taken by Wisdom or the Spirit. "Holy art Thou who didst by Logos make to consist the things that are"

Advanced as these statements may be, they scarcely reach the level of Philon, in such terms as the Son of God, the One Man, the Logos ; and as Philon thus decisively cuts them off from being necessarily of Christian origin, we need not hesitate at their being two or three centuries earlier . . .

Having now traced the growth of post-Alexandrine documents, we will turn back to summarise the general ideas and beliefs which we find in them, before proceeding to the later developments.

The treatise on "The Universal Mind" (Corp. Herm.,xiii) deals with several problems, which we here divide in to separate paragraphs.

Logos is only used by Man, animals have mere voice. logos is in Mind, and Mind in is God ; Mind also is in Soul, Soul in Form, and Form in Body, The other series of cosmic nature is God, in Mind, in Soul, in Air, in Matter. Kosmos continue for ever, and therefore it must Needs be a God ; it is filled full of Life, and is a Mighty God, image of the mightier God.

The Hymn of Re-birth is to be said in open air, facing south-west at sunset, and facing east at sun-rise. The earth is called on to open, every bolt of the abyss to be drawn (the Egyptian view of the twelve gates of the underworld) and heaven is to open. The praises of the Creator is to be sung by man, by nature, and by all the inner powers of man, The Logos sings through man and praise for God's indwelling. God's Mind shepherds the Logos in Man. The doctrine of the re-birth is to be secret or esoteric.

God the Mind--being light and fire, male and female--brought forth another Mind, God formed of fire and sprit. The second God formed seven rulers of the Kosmos, whose rule is fate.

God the Mind then brought forth heavenly Man, coequal with himself, and thus parallel to the Second God. God loved Man and gave him all his qualities. Man then saw the creations of his Brother the Second God, and they loved Man.

The Hermetic books as a whole seem to hang together, and to belong to one general period, 500-200 B.C., while the Logos only begins to appear in the latter, and Wisdom never appears."-Personal Religion in Egypt Before Christianity by W. M. Flinders Pertie Ch. V. The Undated Hermetic Writings pp.*87, **91 -102

"Now we come to the attitude of Philon*, which was by no means a product of his own mind, when he wrote about A.D. 40, but was the statement of a body of thought that had been growing up ever since the mixture of Greek and Jewish ideas. His views were necessarily based upon his national scripture; but, as far as he could, he accepted Greek philosophy. His attitude is best seen by the fact that some of his writings were for Jews who accepted their scripture, and other writings for Greeks who ignored the Jewish scriptures. His position was that of the Egypto-Greek theo-cosm-sophy adopted so far as was practicable compatible with Jewish scripture. His view was that God was incomprehensible, and that man can only recognise his existence, but not know of his personal being. . . in this we see the old Egyptian idea . . . "The Logos in God's likeness by whom the whole Kosmos was fashioned." . . . The Logos is called Dominion, and Name of God, and Reason, and Man-after-his-Likness, and Seeing Israel." . . . Thus far was the way prepared for later developments of doctrine and idea in Christianity."-Personal Religion in Egypt Before Christianity by W.M. Flinders Pertie Ch. V. The Undated Hermetic Writings pp.103-106

*Philo the Helenised Jewish Philosopher

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Quote Nazarene Replybullet Posted: 13 September 2008 at 6:26pm
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by Nazarene

the trinity explaind by jesus

Lection LXVI

             Iesus Again Teacheth His Disciples
             Concerning The Nature Of God
                      The Two In One

    1. AGAIN Jesus taught them saying, God hath raised up witnesses to the truth in every nation and every age, that all might know the will of the Eternal and do it, and after that, enter into the kingdom, to be rulers and workers with the Eternal,


    2. God is Power, Love and Wisdom, and these three are One. God is Truth, Goodness and Beauty, and these three are One.

    3. God is Justice, Knowledge and Purity, and these three are One. God is Splendour, Compassion and Holiness, and these three are One.

    4. And these four Trinities are One in the hidden Deity, the Perfect, the Infinite, the Onely.

    5. Likewise in every man who is perfected, there are three persons, that of the son, that of the spouse. and that of the father, and these three are one.

    6. So in every woman who is Perfected are there three persons, that of the daughter, that of the bride, and that of the mother and these three are one; and the man and the woman are one, even as God is One

    7. Thus it is with God the Father-Mother, in Whom is neither male nor female and in Whom is both, and each is threefold,  and all are One in the hidden Unity.

    8. Marvel not at this, for as it is above so it is below, and as it is below so it is above, and that which is on earth is so, because it is so in Heaven.

    9. Again I say unto you, I and My Bride are one, even as Maria Magdalena, whom I have chosen and sanctified unto Myself as a type, is one with Me; I and My Church are One. And the Church is the elect of humanity for the salvation of all.

    10. The Church of the first born is the Maria of God. Thus saith the Eternal, She is My Mother and she hath ever conceived Me, and brought Me forth as Her Son in every age and clime. She is My Bride, ever one in Holy Union with Me her Spouse. She is My Daughter, for she hath ever issued and proceeded from Me her Father, rejoicing in Me.

    11. And these two Trinities are One in the Eternal, and are strewn forth in each man and woman who are made perfect, ever being born of God, and rejoicing in light, ever being lifted up and made one with God, ever conceiving and bringing forth God for the salvation of the many.
 
    12. This is the Mystery of the Trinity in Humanity, and moreover in every individual child of man must be accomplished the mystery of God, ever witnessing to the light, suffering for the truth, ascending into Heaven, and sending forth the Spirit of Truth And this is the path of salvation, for the kingdom of God is within.

    13. And one said unto him, Master, when shall the kingdom come? And he answered and said, When that which is without shall be as that which is within, and that which is within shall be as that which is without, and, the male with the female, neither male nor female, but the two in One. They who have ears to hear let them hear
                         there's so much to tell,so much to talk about.
                         all my love ,leland
 
 
TO ANCIENT PAGAN EGYPT (WHOM GOD HATED) FOR THE TRINITY OF THE CHURCHIES!
 

Sir E. A. Wallis Budge further goes on to say the following about the Egyptian god Thoth and how it parallels Plato's Logos which was later absorbed into the Churches doctrines as Plato received his ideas via the Egyptians:-

"We are now able to sum up the attributes ascribed to Thoth, and to consider how he employed them in connection with the dead. In first place, he was held to be both the heart and the tongue of Ra, that is to say, he was the reason and the mental powers of the god, and also the means by which t their will was translated into speech ; from one aspect he was speech itself, and in later times he may well have represented, as Dr. Birch said, the logoV of Plato. In every legend in which Thoth takes a prominent part we see that it is he who speaks the word that results in the wishes of Ra being carried into effect, and it is evident that when he had once given the word of commend that command could not fail to be carried out by one means or the other."-'The gods of the Egyptians' by E.A. Wallis Budge Vol. 1 p.407

parallel to the above they conceived the nature of the "One Great God" is via the trinity concept as note in the book 'Before Philosophy' by H. Frankfort, Mrs. H. Frankfort, J.A. Wilson, T. Jacobsen page 75:-

"The fluidity of Egyptian concepts and the tendency to synthesize divergent elements have led some Egyptologists to believe that Egyptians were really monotheistic, that all gods were subsumed into a single god. In a moment we shall present a text that would seem to be a prime document for this thesis of essential monotheism, but we wish to preface it by insisting that it is not a matter of a single god but of single nature of observed phenomena in the universe, with the clear possibility of exchange and substitution. With relation to gods and men the Egyptians were monophysites : many men and many gods, but all ultimately one nature.

The text that we mentioned presents an Egyptian trinity : the three gods who were supremely important at one period of history all taken up into a single divinity. The purpose was to enlarge the god Amon by incorporating the other two gods into his being. 'All gods are three - Amon, Re, and Ptah - and they have no second'. Amon in the name of this single being, Re in his head, and Ptah in his body. 'Only he is : Amon and Re (and Ptah), togther three.' [Leyden Amon Hymn, 4:21-26.] Three gods are one, and yet the Egyptians elsewhere insists on the separate identity of each of the three."

Further to quote renowned Egyptian Archaeologist Sir W. M. Flinders Pertie:-

*"God is not Mind, or spirit or Light, but is the cause of Mind, Spirit, and Light No other so-called gods or daimons can be in any measure Good, but God only can be Good, as He is the same as Good. God also is the universal Father as Creator. . . . The gods were seen as stars. . . . As Kosmos is the Second God, so Man is the third living thing after the image of the Kosmos. He has feelings with the Second God, and a conception of the First God. Kosmos is by God and in God. Man is by Kosmos and in Kosmos. In none of these is Logos personified, nor Wisdom mentioned. . . . It seems probable that such works belng to 450-350 B.C., as they have none of the marks of later thought.

**We now enter on the next stage, in the Corp. Herm [Corpus Hermeticum], xiii, v, xiv, and i, where these writings introduce the personification of the Divine Logos, but not that of Divine Wisdom Thus it appears that the Logos literature precedes the Wisdom literature, in which the Logos is also found We will first notice the development of doctrine in these works . . . One of the earliest of this class must be "About the Universal Mind" (Corp. Herm., xiii) . . . it must be earlier than 332 B.C. . . . "Unto this Logos, son, thy adoration and thy worship pay."

The Logos also begins to appear in "The Cup" or rather "Font" (Corp. Herm., v). "With Logos (reason) not with hands did the Demiourgos make the universal Kosmos," "Man did excel by reason of the Logos," "Logos indeed among all men He hath distributed."

"The Secret Sermon" (Corp. Herm., xiv) seems to be of the same date [300 B.C.] or rather later. The Logos is a higher principle apparently, as we read "Rejoice, O Son, for by the Power of God thou art being purified for articulation of the Logos. Gnosis of God hath come to us." "Thy Logos sings through me thy praises." "Send thou oblation . . . acceptable to God . . . but add my son too 'through the Logos.' " The Logos seems in this Sermon to be the divine principle. Here we find a development of the doctrine of Conversion; it is no longer being baptized in the Divine Mind, but it is "the tradition of Re-birth"; . . . "How is the author of Re-birth? The Son of God, the One Man, by God's will." . . . At first sight this might be put down as Christian in source; but we have already seen in the Perfect Sermon, which can only be put to 340 B.C. "The Lord and Maker of all . . . from himself made the Second God, the Visible . . . whom he loved as his Son," and the Logos doctrine is far less developed than in Philon.

These allusions naturally bring next to this the "Shepherd of Men" or Poimandres, the best known Hermetic work (Corp. Herm., i) In that the Logos doctrine is further developed. In the Creation "a Holy Logos descends on that Nature, and upward to the light from Moist, Nature leaped pure fire" ; "Earth and water no one could discern, yet were they moved to hear by reason of the Logos pervading them" ; "The Logos that appeared from Mind is Son of God". . . Here the Logos holds the place afterwards taken by Wisdom or the Spirit. "Holy art Thou who didst by Logos make to consist the things that are"

Advanced as these statements may be, they scarcely reach the level of Philon, in such terms as the Son of God, the One Man, the Logos ; and as Philon thus decisively cuts them off from being necessarily of Christian origin, we need not hesitate at their being two or three centuries earlier . . .

Having now traced the growth of post-Alexandrine documents, we will turn back to summarise the general ideas and beliefs which we find in them, before proceeding to the later developments.

The treatise on "The Universal Mind" (Corp. Herm.,xiii) deals with several problems, which we here divide in to separate paragraphs.

Logos is only used by Man, animals have mere voice. logos is in Mind, and Mind in is God ; Mind also is in Soul, Soul in Form, and Form in Body, The other series of cosmic nature is God, in Mind, in Soul, in Air, in Matter. Kosmos continue for ever, and therefore it must Needs be a God ; it is filled full of Life, and is a Mighty God, image of the mightier God.

The Hymn of Re-birth is to be said in open air, facing south-west at sunset, and facing east at sun-rise. The earth is called on to open, every bolt of the abyss to be drawn (the Egyptian view of the twelve gates of the underworld) and heaven is to open. The praises of the Creator is to be sung by man, by nature, and by all the inner powers of man, The Logos sings through man and praise for God's indwelling. God's Mind shepherds the Logos in Man. The doctrine of the re-birth is to be secret or esoteric.

God the Mind--being light and fire, male and female--brought forth another Mind, God formed of fire and sprit. The second God formed seven rulers of the Kosmos, whose rule is fate.

God the Mind then brought forth heavenly Man, coequal with himself, and thus parallel to the Second God. God loved Man and gave him all his qualities. Man then saw the creations of his Brother the Second God, and they loved Man.

The Hermetic books as a whole seem to hang together, and to belong to one general period, 500-200 B.C., while the Logos only begins to appear in the latter, and Wisdom never appears."-Personal Religion in Egypt Before Christianity by W. M. Flinders Pertie Ch. V. The Undated Hermetic Writings pp.*87, **91 -102

"Now we come to the attitude of Philon*, which was by no means a product of his own mind, when he wrote about A.D. 40, but was the statement of a body of thought that had been growing up ever since the mixture of Greek and Jewish ideas. His views were necessarily based upon his national scripture; but, as far as he could, he accepted Greek philosophy. His attitude is best seen by the fact that some of his writings were for Jews who accepted their scripture, and other writings for Greeks who ignored the Jewish scriptures. His position was that of the Egypto-Greek theo-cosm-sophy adopted so far as was practicable compatible with Jewish scripture. His view was that God was incomprehensible, and that man can only recognise his existence, but not know of his personal being. . . in this we see the old Egyptian idea . . . "The Logos in God's likeness by whom the whole Kosmos was fashioned." . . . The Logos is called Dominion, and Name of God, and Reason, and Man-after-his-Likness, and Seeing Israel." . . . Thus far was the way prepared for later developments of doctrine and idea in Christianity."-Personal Religion in Egypt Before Christianity by W.M. Flinders Pertie Ch. V. The Undated Hermetic Writings pp.103-106

*Philo the Helenised Jewish Philosopher

this was'nt posted as a history lesson. simply a teaching of jesus. robin you seem to have great knowledge. please don't get lost within yourself.  jesus has another teaching that's not from egypt but buddist ( tibet.)
 
   he who knows eveything but dose not know himself knows nothing.
 
your right though. there wes a conection between jesus' people the essenes and egypt. a group lived there. thats where joseph and mary sought safety with the brothers and sisters there. also there was a town in northeast egypt named "Babylon" at the time of christ. this could clairify the verse 1 peter 5:13 - " She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends her greetings". 
 
 
peace.
 
love for all conquers all
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 15 September 2008 at 10:06am
Originally posted by Nazarene

this was'nt posted as a history lesson. simply a teaching of jesus. robin you seem to have great knowledge. please don't get lost within yourself.  jesus has another teaching that's not from egypt but buddist ( tibet.)
 
   he who knows eveything but dose not know himself knows nothing.
 
your right though. there wes a conection between jesus' people the essenes and egypt. a group lived there. thats where joseph and mary sought safety with the brothers and sisters there. also there was a town in northeast egypt named "Babylon" at the time of christ. this could clairify the verse 1 peter 5:13 - " She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends her greetings". 
 
 
peace.
 
 
The point is that the trinity is not of Biblical, it is pagan, and is thus a polution of demonic doctrines of Biblical teaching as God Is One!
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 15 September 2008 at 2:02pm
Patty,
I am still waiting your response to Jesus' admittance of God (Father) being greater than him while you  believe the three are equal in power.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Nazarene Replybullet Posted: 15 September 2008 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by Nazarene

this was'nt posted as a history lesson. simply a teaching of jesus. robin you seem to have great knowledge. please don't get lost within yourself.  jesus has another teaching that's not from egypt but buddist ( tibet.)
 
   he who knows eveything but dose not know himself knows nothing.
 
your right though. there wes a conection between jesus' people the essenes and egypt. a group lived there. thats where joseph and mary sought safety with the brothers and sisters there. also there was a town in northeast egypt named "Babylon" at the time of christ. this could clairify the verse 1 peter 5:13 - " She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends her greetings". 
 
 
peace.
 
 
The point is that the trinity is not of Biblical, it is pagan, and is thus a polution of demonic doctrines of Biblical teaching as God Is One!
so is the sacrificing of animals ( blood sacrifice  a polution of demonic doctrines) . yet thousands are sacrificed each year the ( Eid Al-Adhha) i guess there's a little pagen in all of us right!! stop the killing. sacrifice more of the wealth you have gained to give to the poor. honor abraham with life! not death. honor the life spared by god with life!!

Edited by Nazarene - 15 September 2008 at 4:29pm
love for all conquers all
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2008 at 12:59am
[/QUOTE]
 i guess there's a little pagen in all of us right!! stop the killing.[/QUOTE]
 
NO.   One is for God and not pagan or a little bit pagan and totaly rejected by God!


Edited by robin - 16 September 2008 at 1:00am
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