IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: From where did the trinity teaching come?

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Rational

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Joined: 28 December 2012
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Posts: 181

Posted: 25 February 2013 at 6:18am

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

May Allah bless you with hidayah.

Ameen ya Rub al-alameen

الله

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Caringheart

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Joined: 02 March 2012
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Posts: 1331

Posted: 25 February 2013 at 1:37pm

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by Caringheart

Semantics games. Ermm

You have no response. Only that it's "Semantics games". Everyone can see what you're doing. But you still insist.

What you're saying is dangerous. Your words can mislead a person from seeking the one true religion. You deny every religion then expect people to seek. It goes against your own signature "Let us seek Truth".

Don't confuse people by saying that you don't believe in religion while at the same time, you yourself have a religion

Greetings Rational,

I say;
Seek Truth, not religion.
Religion is a thing of man... the constructs of man.

Seek God, seek Truth.
The Truth is in the Word of God, not in the things of man.
I seek to remove the stumbling blocks from people's paths, not to place them.

What I have is the Word of God.

I see problems in all 'religions' of man. People believe in the religion and forget God.
There is no, as you put it, 'one true religion'. God has sought to lead all of the people. There are believers... true seekers... and there are unbelievers, in all walks of life. Religion is a thing of man. Seeking God is a personal thing.

If I were to support any man-made construct of faith I would still say that the Catholic church is the church that Christ built, and authorized.

¹⁸And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (the words of Jesus)

But even that has gone somewhat astray because of man, and the Protestants sought to correct those things they thought to be in error... however these also are the constructs of man, and then all the other denominations that came after... but the Catholic church still has the direction from the Apostle's of Christ at its heart.

And at the heart of it all is God's Word itself. It is this to which we must look, and within our hearts to hear the voice of God.

Salaam,
Caringheart

You see, you are lost without your religion.
I am not.
I have God.

Edited by Caringheart - 25 February 2013 at 1:57pm

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever

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Webber

Senior Member

Joined: 09 December 2012
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Posts: 112

Posted: 25 February 2013 at 7:22pm

Ameen ya Rub al-alameen

Is that like a high five?

Hey guys, let's not get too hard on Caringheart here. I think what he means is organized religion. Jesus never said He came to give us an organized religion. He gave us what we needed to know and the Holy Spirit to help us make it through.

The Bible is not a religion, it's an account of the Prophets, and of Jesus and His teachings. It follows Paul and the Apostles that wrote, through the building of churches and reproach to not only those who did not follow, but also to those who added rules to what they were taught, or mixed it with old beliefs, traditions, etc.

The word is "deviated".

The fact that there are so many denominations, sects, groups, "isms" within denominations and sects, is proof enough they are all deviations from the original truth.

Organized religion = deviation.

Causes division, (all the way to wars) between believers. God's will?

Anybody who believes that their one and only "ism" is the one and only way to Heaven, (or they can decide who else is or is not), better go back and read their inspired scriptures with humility.

It's them man made, added rules that make an organized religion, not the straight up gospel of Jesus, nor Paul.

Christianity should not be pegged as a religion, even if a church with a christian type name is full of Christians ever Sunday.

For starters, Islam is not full of Islamists but Muslims right?

Being a Christian is a personal walk with God. That's not so far from Islam.

On Judgement day do you expect to be asked if you believed in a trinity? Or if you believe Jesus lived before the "no beginning"?

Jesus won't ask you if you thought you were predestined to be there.

What He will ask you is what you did for God. His God too btw. Although, you'll know it when you get there, He already knows your heart, there won't be need for many words.

You don't need the man made rules getting in the way. The guys who take your tithes...

"But my religion let me"..."But my religion wouldn't let me"..."But the Pharasees said I could hate my enemy"...won't cut it. Will your Priest, Rabbi, Imam pull you through? He'll be busy answering for himself. It's just you and God.

The truth is in the word, not the labels.

I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26

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Placid
Male Christian
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Joined: 01 November 2012
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Posts: 185

Posted: 26 February 2013 at 12:47pm

Hi Webber,

Very good post.

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Rational

Senior Member

Joined: 28 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 181

Posted: 26 February 2013 at 2:23pm

Assalam Webber,

Originally posted by Webber

Ameen ya Rub al-alameen

Is that like a high five?

No it's nothing like that at all. It's me asking Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) for the same prayer that Nur_Ilahi asked for.

Originally posted by Webber

Hey guys, let's not get too hard on Caringheart here. I think what he means is organized religion.

No one is being hard on anyone. Caringheart is making no sense what so ever and he needs to be told. You can't say you don't believe in religion and it's a thing of man, but at the same time believe in a religion. Caringheart has a religion, it's the word of God (as he claimed). The Bible is the word of God (as he claimed). He has a religion and it's the Bible. If he continues to insist on this statement then he is admitting that the Bible is a thing of man. The book that he quotes from. If he is referring to "organized religion", then he should say so. But no, Caringheart is insinuating that all religions are a thing of man, which ironically includes the Bible. Caringheart defines the word "religion", and says that he adheres to it, but then says that he doesn't believe it.

I am a Muslim and my religion (deen) is Islam. I believe that being a muslim, by submitting to Allah (and not Jesus (Alaihi Salam) or anything else), is the one true religion for all man kind. Beyond that, I don't follow or belong to any sect, group or mathhab (ie. Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi and Ahmad ibn Hanbal). I love and respect those scholars, but I don't belong to one of them. If I was to follow the teachings of a person, it would be Mohammad (salla Allah alyhi wasallam) because he was sent by the One, the Creator, Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala). I follow the Quran and the teachings of the messenger (pbuh). I grow up as a sunni (from the word "Sunnah"). But I prefer to call myself a muslim and that's all. We are forbidden from creating sects or deviations within our deen from Allah (azza wa jall).

Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah; then He will inform them about what they used to do. (159)

But the people divided their religion among them into sects - each faction, in what it has, rejoicing. (53) So leave them in their confusion for a time. (54)

Indeed this, your religion, is one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me. (92) And [yet] they divided their affair among themselves, [but] all to Us will return. (93)

Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers. (32)

And do not be like the ones who became divided and differed after the clear proofs had come to them. And those will have a great punishment. (105)

Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah, then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account. (19)

This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. (3)

O you who have believed, fear Allah as He should be feared and do not die except as Muslims [in submission to Him]. (102) And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided. (103)

Edited by Rational - 26 February 2013 at 4:00pm

الله

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Rational

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Joined: 28 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 181

Posted: 26 February 2013 at 3:46pm

Assalamo alaik Caringheart,

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Rational,

I say;
Seek Truth, not religion.
Religion is a thing of man... the constructs of man.

Seek God, seek Truth.
The Truth is in the Word of God, not in the things of man.
I seek to remove the stumbling blocks from people's paths, not to place them.

What I have is the Word of God.

I see problems in all 'religions' of man. People believe in the religion and forget God.
There is no, as you put it, 'one true religion'. God has sought to lead all of the people. There are believers... true seekers... and there are unbelievers, in all walks of life. Religion is a thing of man. Seeking God is a personal thing.

If I were to support any man-made construct of faith I would still say that the Catholic church is the church that Christ built, and authorized.

¹⁸And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (the words of Jesus)

And at the heart of it all is God's Word itself. It is this to which we must look, and within our hearts to hear the voice of God.

Salaam,
Caringheart

You see, you are lost without your religion.
I am not.
I have God.

Is the Bible your religion? (yes/no)

Edited by Rational - 26 February 2013 at 3:47pm

الله

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Caringheart

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Joined: 02 March 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1331

Posted: 26 February 2013 at 3:56pm

Greetings Rational,

I am quoting Webber;
"The Bible is not a religion, it's an account of the Prophets, and of Jesus and His teachings."

Smile

Caringheart

Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever

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Rational

Senior Member

Joined: 28 December 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 181

Posted: 27 February 2013 at 1:01am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Rational,

I am quoting Webber;
"The Bible is not a religion, it's an account of the Prophets, and of Jesus and His teachings."

Smile

Caringheart

But previously you said that the Bible is the "word of God" and that to you, religion is the word of God. Make up your mind maybe?

And now you're using Webber by claiming that the Bible is not religion. So you don't have a religion? I showed you from the Bible, where Jesus clearly uses the term "religion".

Edited by Rational - 27 February 2013 at 12:49pm

الله

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Topic: From where did the trinity teaching come?
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Author	Message
Rational Senior Member Joined: 28 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 181	Posted: 25 February 2013 at 6:18am
	*Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi* May Allah bless you with hidayah. Ameen ya Rub al-alameen
	الله
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1331	Posted: 25 February 2013 at 1:37pm
	*Originally posted by Rational* *Originally posted by Caringheart* Semantics games. You have no response. Only that it's "Semantics games". Everyone can see what you're doing. But you still insist. What you're saying is dangerous. Your words can mislead a person from seeking the one true religion. You deny every religion then expect people to seek. It goes against your own signature "Let us seek Truth". Don't confuse people by saying that you don't believe in religion while at the same time, you yourself have a religion Greetings Rational, I say; Seek Truth, not religion. Religion is a thing of man... the constructs of man. Seek God, seek Truth. The Truth is in the Word of God, not in the things of man. I seek to remove the stumbling blocks from people's paths, not to place them. What I have is the Word of God. I see problems in all 'religions' of man. People believe in the religion and forget God. There is no, as you put it, 'one true religion'. God has sought to lead all of the people. There are believers... true seekers... and there are unbelievers, in all walks of life. Religion is a thing of man. Seeking God is a personal thing. If I were to support any man-made construct of faith I would still say that the Catholic church is the church that Christ built, and authorized. ¹⁸And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (the words of Jesus) But even that has gone somewhat astray because of man, and the Protestants sought to correct those things they thought to be in error... however these also are the constructs of man, and then all the other denominations that came after... but the Catholic church still has the direction from the Apostle's of Christ at its heart. And at the heart of it all is God's Word itself. It is this to which we must look, and within our hearts to hear the voice of God. Salaam, Caringheart You see, you are lost without your religion. I am not. I have God. Edited by Caringheart - 25 February 2013 at 1:57pm
	Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever
	IP Logged

Webber Senior Member Joined: 09 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 112	Posted: 25 February 2013 at 7:22pm
	Ameen ya Rub al-alameen Is that like a high five? Hey guys, let's not get too hard on Caringheart here. I think what he means is organized religion. Jesus never said He came to give us an organized religion. He gave us what we needed to know and the Holy Spirit to help us make it through. The Bible is not a religion, it's an account of the Prophets, and of Jesus and His teachings. It follows Paul and the Apostles that wrote, through the building of churches and reproach to not only those who did not follow, but also to those who added rules to what they were taught, or mixed it with old beliefs, traditions, etc. The word is "deviated". The fact that there are so many denominations, sects, groups, "isms" within denominations and sects, is proof enough they are all deviations from the original truth. Organized religion = deviation. Causes division, (all the way to wars) between believers. God's will? Anybody who believes that their one and only "ism" is the one and only way to Heaven, (or they can decide who else is or is not), better go back and read their inspired scriptures with humility. It's them man made, added rules that make an organized religion, not the straight up gospel of Jesus, nor Paul. Christianity should not be pegged as a religion, even if a church with a christian type name is full of Christians ever Sunday. For starters, Islam is not full of Islamists but Muslims right? Being a Christian is a personal walk with God. That's not so far from Islam. On Judgement day do you expect to be asked if you believed in a trinity? Or if you believe Jesus lived before the "no beginning"? Jesus won't ask you if you thought you were predestined to be there. What He will ask you is what you did for God. His God too btw. Although, you'll know it when you get there, He already knows your heart, there won't be need for many words. You don't need the man made rules getting in the way. The guys who take your tithes... "But my religion let me"..."But my religion wouldn't let me"..."But the Pharasees said I could hate my enemy"...won't cut it. Will your Priest, Rabbi, Imam pull you through? He'll be busy answering for himself. It's just you and God. The truth is in the word, not the labels.
	I'm a Gentile. Numb. 6:24-26
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Placid Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 185	Posted: 26 February 2013 at 12:47pm
	Hi Webber, Very good post.
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Rational Senior Member Joined: 28 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 181	Posted: 26 February 2013 at 2:23pm
	Assalam Webber, *Originally posted by Webber* Ameen ya Rub al-alameen Is that like a high five? No it's nothing like that at all. It's me asking Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) for the same prayer that Nur_Ilahi asked for. *Originally posted by Webber* Hey guys, let's not get too hard on Caringheart here. I think what he means is organized religion. No one is being hard on anyone. Caringheart is making no sense what so ever and he needs to be told. You can't say you don't believe in religion and it's a thing of man, but at the same time believe in a religion. Caringheart has a religion, it's the word of God (as he claimed). The Bible is the word of God (as he claimed). He has a religion and it's the Bible. If he continues to insist on this statement then he is admitting that the Bible is a thing of man. The book that he quotes from. If he is referring to "organized religion", then he should say so. But no, Caringheart is insinuating that all religions are a thing of man, which ironically includes the Bible. Caringheart defines the word "religion", and says that he adheres to it, but then says that he doesn't believe it. I am a Muslim and my religion (deen) is Islam. I believe that being a muslim, by submitting to Allah (and not Jesus (Alaihi Salam) or anything else), is the one true religion for all man kind. Beyond that, I don't follow or belong to any sect, group or mathhab (ie. Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi and Ahmad ibn Hanbal). I love and respect those scholars, but I don't belong to one of them. If I was to follow the teachings of a person, it would be Mohammad (salla Allah alyhi wasallam) because he was sent by the One, the Creator, Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala). I follow the Quran and the teachings of the messenger (pbuh). I grow up as a sunni (from the word "Sunnah"). But I prefer to call myself a muslim and that's all. We are forbidden from creating sects or deviations within our deen from Allah (azza wa jall). Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah; then He will inform them about what they used to do. (159) But the people divided their religion among them into sects - each faction, in what it has, rejoicing. (53) So leave them in their confusion for a time. (54) Indeed this, your religion, is one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me. (92) And [yet] they divided their affair among themselves, [but] all to Us will return. (93) Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers. (32) And do not be like the ones who became divided and differed after the clear proofs had come to them. And those will have a great punishment. (105) Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah, then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account. (19) This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. (3) O you who have believed, fear Allah as He should be feared and do not die except as Muslims [in submission to Him]. (102) And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided. (103) Edited by Rational - 26 February 2013 at 4:00pm
	الله
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Rational Senior Member Joined: 28 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 181	Posted: 26 February 2013 at 3:46pm
	Assalamo alaik Caringheart, *Originally posted by Caringheart* Greetings Rational, I say; Seek Truth, not religion. Religion is a thing of man... the constructs of man. Seek God, seek Truth. The Truth is in the Word of God, not in the things of man. I seek to remove the stumbling blocks from people's paths, not to place them. What I have is the Word of God. I see problems in all 'religions' of man. People believe in the religion and forget God. There is no, as you put it, 'one true religion'. God has sought to lead all of the people. There are believers... true seekers... and there are unbelievers, in all walks of life. Religion is a thing of man. Seeking God is a personal thing. If I were to support any man-made construct of faith I would still say that the Catholic church is the church that Christ built, and authorized. ¹⁸And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (the words of Jesus) But even that has gone somewhat astray because of man, and the Protestants sought to correct those things they thought to be in error... however these also are the constructs of man, and then all the other denominations that came after... but the Catholic church still has the direction from the Apostle's of Christ at its heart. And at the heart of it all is God's Word itself. It is this to which we must look, and within our hearts to hear the voice of God. Salaam, Caringheart You see, you are lost without your religion. I am not. I have God. Is the Bible your religion? (yes/no) Edited by Rational - 26 February 2013 at 3:47pm
	الله
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Caringheart Senior Member Joined: 02 March 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1331	Posted: 26 February 2013 at 3:56pm
	Greetings Rational, I am quoting Webber; "The Bible is not a religion, it's an account of the Prophets, and of Jesus and His teachings." Caringheart
	Let us seek Truth together Blessed be God forever
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Rational Senior Member Joined: 28 December 2012 Online Status: Offline Posts: 181	Posted: 27 February 2013 at 1:01am
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* Greetings Rational, I am quoting Webber; "The Bible is not a religion, it's an account of the Prophets, and of Jesus and His teachings." Caringheart But previously you said that the Bible is the "word of God" and that to you, religion is the word of God. Make up your mind maybe? And now you're using Webber by claiming that the Bible is not religion. So you don't have a religion? I showed you from the Bible, where Jesus clearly uses the term "religion". Edited by Rational - 27 February 2013 at 12:49pm
	الله
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