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Message Icon Topic: From where did the trinity teaching come? Post Reply Post New Topic
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AgnesDei
 
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Quote AgnesDei Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2011 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


 To Agnes

 Shabir Ally explains the John 14:9

 In John 14:9 Jesus (peace be upon him) is quoted as saying: “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.”  This is often misunderstood to mean that Jesus is God.  But Jesus clearly said that no one has seen God at any time (John 5:37).  Those who say that Jesus is God, are disagreeing with what Jesus himself said.  If Jesus was God why would he say to the people looking at him that they never saw God?  And why would the author of the 1st Letter of John in the Bible, writing some seventy years after Jesus was taken up, say that no one had ever seen God (1John 4:12) although he knew that multitudes had already seen Jesus?  The meaning of John 14:9 is not that Jesus is God, but that by knowing Jesus, one gets to know God, since Jesus teaches about God.  This meaning is confirmed by John 1:18 where the writer says that no one had ever seen God, but Jesus had made God known to the people.  In the 17th Chapter of the same Gospel, Jesus declared that eternal life means knowing that the Father whom Jesus worshipped is the only true God and that Jesus is the Messiah who was sent by God.(Is Jesus God? The Bible Says No!)
 
To Mansoor_ali:
 
You are leaving out the sentence where Jesus also told Phillip, "the Father and I ARE ONE."  The Trinity is (once again) comprised of the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost.  No one has seen the Father, as He is a spirit, but Jesus in His human form is one separate entitity of the Holy Trinity, which included God.  Mansoor......since you and all people of the Islamic faith do not believe in the Holy Trinity, this is all an effort in futility. The Trinity is a mystery....as many things are.  It requires faith.  "Faith which surpasses all understanding."  I hope one day you might find that faith.  God's Peace to you,
AgnesDei
"When wicked tongues insult and hate you all because of me, blessed, blessed are you." By Jesus, the Christ
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Douggg
 
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Quote Douggg Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2011 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


 To Jack

 Does John 14:6 prove divinity of Christ?

 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

 The verse states that Jesus was the "WAY".What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except "I am the 'way' to God's mercy"? That is his job. That is what a prophet does. It is why God chose him in the first place; in order to guide to the mercy of God.So John 14 verse 6 doesnot prove divinity of Christ.


Hi Mansoor, I think you meant your post to be addressed to me, not Jack.Smile

No prophet says that he is the Truth, nor the Way, nor the Life.  

Who else in the bible says he is the Truth?


*****************************************************
You cited the NIV and the NASB as not having Alpha and Omega in Revelation 1:11.

Please go to verse 1:8 in both the NIV and NASB.   The Alpha and Omega are in that verse, in the kjv, NIV, and NASB.

 8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (KJV)

 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” (NIV)

 8"I am 
the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

 20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.



 
 
Now What About John 11:25?

 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

 Brother Sami Zaatri rightly responded to John 11:25:

 I have no problem in Jesus saying whoever believes in him though he dies, will still live and everyone who believes in him shall never die. Muslims will agree with that, Jesus is a prophet, and all prophets should be believed in, and Jesus is no different. Indeed if you believe in Jesus as a prophet and the messiah, then of course when you die you shall still live, God will reward you with heaven, and if you believe in him you will also never die in the sense of being doomed to hell for eternity which is worse than death. Jesus goes further on proving the point that he is a prophet the messiah when he asks: do you believe this? The lady responds in the affirmative, as any true believer back then should. Every true believer back then must have believed in Jesus because he was a prophet, and if you did not, then the wrath of God would be upon you. 


Does  Sami Zaatri deny that one of Allah's 99 names is "the resurrection".  

Jesus said with his own mouth that he is the resurrection.... and the life.   What other person in the bible say that he is the resurrection?


 
So Christ is not divine according to John 14:6,Revelation 1:11 and John 11:25.


Jesus has the same "unique" names, spoken with his own mouth, as Islam claims for Allah.
   Which no-one else says of themselves.   If muslims claim Allah is divine then they are faced with the dilemma that  Jesus is God as well, because those three names Jesus said with his own mouth can only apply to God. (1) the Resurrection (2) the Truth (3) the Alpha and the Omega.

Al-Ba^ith
  • The Reserrector, The Raiser (from death), The One who resurrects His slaves after death for reward and/or punishment.

  • Al-'Awwal
  • The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.
  • Al-'Akhir
  • The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.
  • Al-Haqq
  • The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.


  • Doug L.

     

     

     

     

     



    Edited by Douggg - 25 April 2011 at 11:21pm
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    Mansoor_ali
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    Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2011 at 7:02pm

     To Agnes

     You are leaving out the sentence where Jesus also told Phillip, "the Father and I ARE ONE."

     "Jesus and the Father are One" they are one in purpose,will but not in essence.



     

     



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    Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2011 at 7:26pm
    Originally posted by Douggg

    Originally posted by honeto

    To Agnes,
    I  think Mansoor is right when he says that you put words in Jesus' mouth and let me show how.
    You claim Jesus is God. You cannot produce a single claim and clarification by Jesus himself where he said: " I am God" you cannot.


    Your god Allah has 99 names.   All equal.  Is your god's name "the Truth"?  Yes.   Jesus with his own mouth said I am the Truth....John 14:6

    Is your god's name "the First" and "the Last"?
    Yes.   Jesus with his own mouth said I am the First and Last...Revelation 1:11

    Is your god's name "the Resurrection"?   Yes.
    Jesus with his own mouth said I am the Resurrection....John 11:25


    Doug L
    Doug,
    now can you address and answer to what I wrote and if you are wondering what I mean. I am asking is there a single claim by Jesus in the Bible where he said: " I am your God, worship me" like God has said in the OT and in the Quran. I have shown you where he did say that " I am going to my God and your God" or that " my father is greater than I".
    Hasan


    Edited by honeto - 26 April 2011 at 7:27pm
    39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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    Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2011 at 8:34pm

     To Douggg.

     Hi Mansoor, I think you meant your post to be addressed to me, not
    Jack.


     I apologize.It is just a human error.

     No prophet says that he is the Truth, nor the Way, nor the Life.Who else in the bible says he is the Truth?

     Here is Dr.Zakir Naik Response to "I am the Way,the Truth and the Light"
     Click http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEYFRMzGJPo

     You cited the NIV and the NASB as not having Alpha and Omega in Revelation 1:11.

     Please go to verse 1:8 in both the NIV and NASB.   The Alpha and Omega are in that verse, in the kjv, NIV, and NASB.

     8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (KJV)

     8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” (NIV)

     8"I am 
    the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

     20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

     I think you didnot read NIV and NASB carefully.Let me quote Revelation 1:8

     
    I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”(NIV)

     I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."(NASB)

     Now i am also quoting RSV:

     "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

     "I am the Alpha and the Omega" this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus.

     Recommended:
     http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=150

     

     

     
     

     

     

     

     

     
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    Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2011 at 11:00pm

     To Douggg

     John 11:25(NIV)

     Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

     I agree with this statement.He who believes in Jesus will live, by live it means you go to heaven, if you dont believe in Jesus you will die, by die it means going to hell. This applies to every prophet.Again Christ is not divine according to John 11:25.

     

     
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    Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2011 at 12:22am

     To Douggg.

     You quoted two verses of John(John 14:6 and John 11:25) and one verse of Revelation(Revelation 1:11).Now i will talk about Gospel of John.I will put another picture of Gospel of John.

     The following is taken by Shabir Ally work which you can find here.

     
     Did Jesus say everything John says he said?

    Consider the following sayings of Jesus found in John's Gospel alone:

    John 14:9: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

    John 6:35: "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life."

    John 8:12: "I am the light of the world."

    John 8:58: "Before Abraham was, I am."

    John 10:7: "I am the door of the sheep."

    John 11 :25: "I am the resurrection, and the life."

    John 14:6: "I am the way, the truth, and the life."

    John 15: 1 "I am the true vine."


    Christian scholars tell us that if Jesus had made all these fantastic claims about himself, the first three gospels would surely have recorded them. Mark was written around 70 CE, followed by Matthew and Luke somewhere between 80-90 CE John, written around 100 CE, was the last of the four canonized gospels. The Christian scholar James Dunn writes in his book The Evidence for Jesus: "If they were part of the original words of Jesus himself, how could it be that only John picked them up and none of the others? Call it scholarly skepticism ifyou like, but I find it almost incredible that such sayings should have been neglected had they been known as a feature of Jesus'teaching. If the 'I am' had been part of the original tradition, it is very hard indeed to explain why none ofthe other three evangelists made use of them." (p. 3 6)

     Similarly, the New American Bible tells us in its introduction, under the heading How to Read Your Bible:

    "It is difficult to know whether the words or sayings attributed to Jesus are written exactly as he spoke them....The Church was so firmly convinced that ... Jesus ... taught through her, that she expressed her teaching in the form of Jesus' sayings." (St. Joseph Medium Size Edition, p.23)

    What we have in John, then is what people were saying about Jesus at the time John was written (about 70 years after Jesus was raised up). The writer of John simply expressed those ideas as if Jesus had said them. Rev.James Dunn says further in his book that, almost certainly,the writer of the fourth gospel "was not concerned with the sort of questions which trouble some Christians today Did Jesus actually say this? Did he use these precise words? and so on." (Fhe Evidence/or Jesus, p. 43)

    Scholars have concluded that this gospel was originally written in a simple fonn. But this gospel was later on, as the New Jerusalem Bible says, "amplified and developed" in several stages during the second half of the first century." (p. 1742)

    It says further: "It is today freely accepted that the fourth Gospel underwent a complex development before it reached its final form." (p. 1742)

    On a previous page, the same Bible says: "It would seem that we have only the end-stage of a slow process that has brought together not only component parts of different ages, but also corrections, additions and sometimes even more than one revision of the same discourse." (p. 1739)

    The New American Bible says that most scholars "have come to the conclusion that the inconsistencies were probably produced by subsequent editing in which homogeneous materials were added to a shorter original."(New American Bible, RevisedNew Testament. p. 143)

     

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    Quote Douggg Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2011 at 12:23am
    Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


    I think you didnot read NIV and NASB carefully.Let me quote Revelation 1:8

     
    I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”(NIV)

     I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."(NASB)

     Now i am also quoting RSV:

     "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

     "I am the Alpha and the Omega" this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus.


    Hi Mansoor,  the Lord Jesus is the Lord God.   In all of those translations is this phrase: "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty".  

    The phrase "who is to come" identifies the Lord God as Lord Jesus who will be returning to his world.   That's why I included from the end of Revelation, 22:20.  " Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

     20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
     



    Edited by Douggg - 28 April 2011 at 12:34am
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