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Salaam_Erin
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Quote Salaam_Erin Replybullet Posted: 15 November 2012 at 8:30am
Water ice and steam is heretical as Water has to solidify to be ice and become gas to be steam.  That's actually an analogy fora heretical form of Unitarianism called Sabellianism, in this case Modalism.  The Father becomes the Son becomes the Holy Spirit.  A better analogy is the Sun, which has a core, a visible photosphere which is what we see and the outer invisible coronasphere which is visible normally only in hydrogen-alpha light and at solar eclipses, the coronasphere being in uity with the solar wind and the Sun's magnetosphere.  But since the Sun is a finite object and God is infinite, the model breaks down, but it gets closer to what God is doing and is continually. 

Since the Wisdom of God is a case of God being exalted by King Solomon and Wisdom refers to itself as the craftsman at God's side to Solomon, then Wisdom is God. 

Wisdom is an attribute of God so powerful that Wisdom can create the Universe (And God reveals to Isaiah that God did so alone.)  Therefore Wisdom is a personal living projection- a hypostasis of God, our wisdom is only finite and is merely our good judgement.  In God's case it is a second point of consciousness.   I'm not starting a new religion.  Jesus is Wisdom, and teaches Himself to be so. 

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners".  But wisdom is proved right by her actions."  (Matthew 11:19)  

It's interesting how Jesus preaches of the Son of Man and Wisdom in the same breath.  I'll get back to that in a moment. 

With reference to the Queen of Sheba, Jesus says, "The Queen of the South will rise at the judgement with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here."  (Matthew 12:42)

Jesus links Himself with Wisdom further using feminine imagery for Himself: "How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."  (Matthew 23:37)

Jesus, on trial before Caiaphas, is put on oath by the High Priest.  "The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."  "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.  "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."  Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy!  Why do we need any more witnesses?"  (Matthew 26:63-65.)

Compare this with Daniel 7:13-14.  "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.  He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.  He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him.  His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed." 

Compare this with:

"For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.  And he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.  Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end.  He will reign on David's throne and voer his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and for ever." (Isaiah 9:6-7)

The Son of Man, the Messiah, God and Wisdom are all interconnected.  Hence why John writes:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  (John 1:1)

"My Father is always at his work to this day, and I too am working."  (John 5:17)

"For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.  And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man."  (John 5:26-27)

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.  Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."  (John 7:37-38)  This is a summary of those teachigns about Wisdom in Ecclesiasticus by Rabbi Jesus Ben Sirach, whom the Lord Jesus approved of in this instance.  (It doesn't canonise the book but certainly canonises the teaching given in that book on Wisdom and the Holy Spirit being like living water.)

To quote from yourself, Abu:

Interesting. Now you are saying that wisdom created the world alongside God? In that case why don't you add wisdom to the Trinity and make it a Quadrinity?


No need, Jesus is Wisdom.  Wisdom and Word is what the term 'Son' symbolises.

The Son of Man who Jesus claims to be, is not the only image of a Hypostatic mirror image of God, along with Wisdom.  Look at Exodus 23:20-22.  This is no ordinary angel God is discussing: 

"See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.  Pay attention to him and listen to what he says.  Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him."

And don't forget, in Exodus 3 and 4 the Angel of the LORD speaks to Moses as the flame in the Burning Bush, and is clearly God Himself, and proclaims Himself to be I AM.  As does Jesus in John 8:58: "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

There is nothing new about any of this.  This is why Paul writes later, in AD 55, to the Corinthian church, "But to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."  (1 Corinthians 1:24)

Jesus proclaims Himself to be the Wisdom of God.  This is why He teaches, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."  (John 14:9)

That is why John says that the Word was in the Beginning, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  That's why Paul says "He is the image of invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."    (Colossians 1:15-17)

John writes, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."  (John 1:3)

So we see how the Son of Man and Wisdom of God concepts come together.  Paul and John are drawing from the revelation God gave to King Solomon in Proverbs 8.  Paul also draws from Daniel 7:14.  That is why Jesus says: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."  (Matthew 28:18)

If you believe Jesus is a prophet, and see how the second messenger who proclaims the covenant is YHWH Himself, in Malachi 3, then you must bow the knee to Jesus Himself, to the glory of God the Father.

The Father shall have the last word.  "This is my Son, whom I love, with whom I am well pleased.  Listen to Him!"(Matthew 17:5) 

       
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 16 November 2012 at 2:30am
Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Water ice and steam is heretical as Water has to solidify to be ice and become gas to be steam.  That's actually an analogy fora heretical form of Unitarianism called Sabellianism, in this case Modalism.  The Father becomes the Son becomes the Holy Spirit.  A better analogy is the Sun, which has a core, a visible photosphere which is what we see and the outer invisible coronasphere which is visible normally only in hydrogen-alpha light and at solar eclipses, the coronasphere being in uity with the solar wind and the Sun's magnetosphere.  But since the Sun is a finite object and God is infinite, the model breaks down, but it gets closer to what God is doing and is continually. 

Since the Wisdom of God is a case of God being exalted by King Solomon and Wisdom refers to itself as the craftsman at God's side to Solomon, then Wisdom is God. 

Wisdom is an attribute of God so powerful that Wisdom can create the Universe (And God reveals to Isaiah that God did so alone.)  Therefore Wisdom is a personal living projection- a hypostasis of God, our wisdom is only finite and is merely our good judgement.  In God's case it is a second point of consciousness.   I'm not starting a new religion.  Jesus is Wisdom, and teaches Himself to be so. 

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners".  But wisdom is proved right by her actions."  (Matthew 11:19)  

It's interesting how Jesus preaches of the Son of Man and Wisdom in the same breath.  I'll get back to that in a moment. 

With reference to the Queen of Sheba, Jesus says, "The Queen of the South will rise at the judgement with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here."  (Matthew 12:42)

Jesus links Himself with Wisdom further using feminine imagery for Himself: "How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."  (Matthew 23:37)

Jesus, on trial before Caiaphas, is put on oath by the High Priest.  "The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."  "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.  "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."  Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy!  Why do we need any more witnesses?"  (Matthew 26:63-65.)

Compare this with Daniel 7:13-14.  "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.  He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.  He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him.  His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed." 

Compare this with:

"For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.  And he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.  Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end.  He will reign on David's throne and voer his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and for ever." (Isaiah 9:6-7)

The Son of Man, the Messiah, God and Wisdom are all interconnected.  Hence why John writes:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  (John 1:1)

"My Father is always at his work to this day, and I too am working."  (John 5:17)

"For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.  And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man."  (John 5:26-27)

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.  Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."  (John 7:37-38)  This is a summary of those teachigns about Wisdom in Ecclesiasticus by Rabbi Jesus Ben Sirach, whom the Lord Jesus approved of in this instance.  (It doesn't canonise the book but certainly canonises the teaching given in that book on Wisdom and the Holy Spirit being like living water.)

To quote from yourself, Abu:

Interesting. Now you are saying that wisdom created the world alongside God? In that case why don't you add wisdom to the Trinity and make it a Quadrinity?


No need, Jesus is Wisdom.  Wisdom and Word is what the term 'Son' symbolises.

The Son of Man who Jesus claims to be, is not the only image of a Hypostatic mirror image of God, along with Wisdom.  Look at Exodus 23:20-22.  This is no ordinary angel God is discussing: 

"See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.  Pay attention to him and listen to what he says.  Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him."

And don't forget, in Exodus 3 and 4 the Angel of the LORD speaks to Moses as the flame in the Burning Bush, and is clearly God Himself, and proclaims Himself to be I AM.  As does Jesus in John 8:58: "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

There is nothing new about any of this.  This is why Paul writes later, in AD 55, to the Corinthian church, "But to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."  (1 Corinthians 1:24)

Jesus proclaims Himself to be the Wisdom of God.  This is why He teaches, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."  (John 14:9)

That is why John says that the Word was in the Beginning, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  That's why Paul says "He is the image of invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."    (Colossians 1:15-17)

John writes, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."  (John 1:3)

So we see how the Son of Man and Wisdom of God concepts come together.  Paul and John are drawing from the revelation God gave to King Solomon in Proverbs 8.  Paul also draws from Daniel 7:14.  That is why Jesus says: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."  (Matthew 28:18)

If you believe Jesus is a prophet, and see how the second messenger who proclaims the covenant is YHWH Himself, in Malachi 3, then you must bow the knee to Jesus Himself, to the glory of God the Father.

The Father shall have the last word.  "This is my Son, whom I love, with whom I am well pleased.  Listen to Him!"(Matthew 17:5) 

       
 
A very nice post indeed, but for a person like me I don't know what is the real Gospel and what is added later by Trinitarians. Sorry but I can't trust all of it.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 17 November 2012 at 11:33am
But you can Abu.

the best attested document in [ancient history]
http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/bible-manuscripts.htm

Dramatically, when the Bible manuscripts are compared to other ancient writings, they stand alone as the best-preserved literary works of all antiquity. Remarkably, there are thousands of existing Old Testament manuscripts and fragments copied throughout the Middle East, Mediterranean and European regions that agree phenomenally with each other. 1 In addition, these texts substantially agree with the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, which was translated from Hebrew to Greek some time during the 3rd century BC. 2 The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in Israel in the 1940's and 50's, also provide astounding evidence for the reliability of the ancient transmission of the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament) in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries BC. 3

The manuscript evidence for the "New Testament" is also dramatic, with nearly 25,000 ancient manuscripts discovered and archived so far, at least 5,600 of which are copies and fragments in the original Greek. 4 Some manuscript texts date to the early second and third centuries, with the time between the original autographs and our earliest existing fragment being a remarkably short 40-60 years. 5

Interestingly, this manuscript evidence far surpasses the manuscript reliability of other ancient writings that we trust as authentic every day.
Read more at the above provided link.

Salaam,
CH
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 26 November 2012 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

But you can Abu.the best attested document in [ancient history]http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/bible-manuscripts.htmDramatically, when the Bible manuscripts are compared to other ancient writings, they stand alone as the best-preserved literary works of all antiquity. Remarkably, there are thousands of existing Old Testament manuscripts and fragments copied throughout the Middle East, Mediterranean and European regions that agree phenomenally with each other. 1 In addition, these texts substantially agree with the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, which was translated from Hebrew to Greek some time during the 3rd century BC. 2 The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in Israel in the 1940's and 50's, also provide astounding evidence for the reliability of the ancient transmission of the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament) in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries BC. 3The manuscript evidence for the "New Testament" is also dramatic, with nearly 25,000 ancient manuscripts discovered and archived so far, at least 5,600 of which are copies and fragments in the original Greek. 4 Some manuscript texts date to the early second and third centuries, with the time between the original autographs and our earliest existing fragment being a remarkably short 40-60 years. 5Interestingly, this manuscript evidence far surpasses the manuscript reliability of other ancient writings that we trust as authentic every day.Read more at the above provided link.Salaam,CH


CAringheart,
the problem remains. The word of God has to be treated as such. The present forms of Bibles show differences, numerous differences. The Catholic Bible, the King James, and so on all show signs of variations even in the number of books contained.
It might be true that there are fragments of ancient scripture found here and there, but not all are accepted as such, only those that favor one point of view. So there is evidence that support both sides in favor and against.
And it is a fact that all we have as the Bible today is not even in its original language, let alone in perfect form as God revealed it then.
You do not have a compilation in single volume from a thousand years ago identical to that you are using today.
That says a lot. And so many problems with the basic teachings.
Like you say Trinity, all three equal in it is proved otherwise from the same book. You say Jesus did not have a God, he is a God. The same book proves otherwise.
You say, sins are paid with Jesus' blood sacrifice, we see the book teaches otherwise. On top you claim that all your teachings are based in the same book, which I have shown to have proved otherwise everything you say you get from the same book!
How do you reconcile with those facts? I leave that to you and pray that you seek the truth and guidance from God.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 26 November 2012 at 3:39pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 26 November 2012 at 7:29pm
Hasan,
It would be best if you did not comment unless you read the articles provided.  I always read or view anything that is presented to me.
Salaam,
CH
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Quote Salaam_Erin Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2012 at 3:50am
A very nice post indeed, but for a person like me I don't know what is the real Gospel and what is added later by Trinitarians. Sorry but I can't trust all of it.

Then it is time for you to learn the textual history of the New Testament. I trust it because the key passages are undisputed, and any textual variations there is a way of ascertaining the original meaning. None of the doctrines are affected. John 1 is the same in the NIV and AKJV and in their Greek textual bases, for example. The Trinitarians added nothing. Arius, for example, misused Proverbs 8 from the Hebrew Bible to justify his Henotheistic teaching on the Father and Jesus being separate gods, a Big Uncreated God and a little created god who created the Universe on the orders of the Father. But Arius understood something about Trinitarians that Muslims do not grasp- that's why he accused the Trinitarians of being Unitarians.    
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2012 at 10:09am
Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Water ice and steam is heretical as Water has to solidify to be ice and become gas to be steam. That's actually an analogy fora heretical form of Unitarianism called Sabellianism, in this case Modalism. The Father becomes the Son becomes the Holy Spirit. A better analogy is the Sun, which has a core, a visible photosphere which is what we see and the outer invisible coronasphere which is visible normally only in hydrogen-alpha light and at solar eclipses, the coronasphere being in uity with the solar wind and the Sun's magnetosphere. But since the Sun is a finite object and God is infinite, the model breaks down, but it gets closer to what God is doing and is continually. Since the Wisdom of God is a case of God being exalted by King Solomon and Wisdom refers to itself as the craftsman at God's side to Solomon, then Wisdom is God. Wisdom is an attribute of God so powerful that Wisdom can create the Universe (And God reveals to Isaiah that God did so alone.) Therefore Wisdom is a personal living projection- a hypostasis of God, our wisdom is only finite and is merely our good judgement. In God's case it is a second point of consciousness. I'm not starting a new religion. Jesus is Wisdom, and teaches Himself to be so. "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners". But wisdom is proved right by her actions." (Matthew 11:19) It's interesting how Jesus preaches of the Son of Man and Wisdom in the same breath. I'll get back to that in a moment. With reference to the Queen of Sheba, Jesus says, "The Queen of the South will rise at the judgement with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here." (Matthew 12:42)Jesus links Himself with Wisdom further using feminine imagery for Himself: "How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." (Matthew 23:37)Jesus, on trial before Caiaphas, is put on oath by the High Priest. "The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses?" (Matthew 26:63-65.)Compare this with Daniel 7:13-14. "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed." Compare this with:"For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and voer his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and for ever." (Isaiah 9:6-7)The Son of Man, the Messiah, God and Wisdom are all interconnected. Hence why John writes:"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)"My Father is always at his work to this day, and I too am working." (John 5:17)"For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man." (John 5:26-27)"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." (John 7:37-38) This is a summary of those teachigns about Wisdom in Ecclesiasticus by Rabbi Jesus Ben Sirach, whom the Lord Jesus approved of in this instance. (It doesn't canonise the book but certainly canonises the teaching given in that book on Wisdom and the Holy Spirit being like living water.)To quote from yourself, Abu:Interesting. Now you are saying that wisdom created the world alongside
God? In that case why don't you add wisdom to the Trinity and make it a
Quadrinity?
No need, Jesus is Wisdom. Wisdom and Word is what the term 'Son' symbolises.The Son of Man who Jesus claims to be, is not the only image of a Hypostatic mirror image of God, along with Wisdom. Look at Exodus 23:20-22. This is no ordinary angel God is discussing: "See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him." And don't forget, in Exodus 3 and 4 the Angel of the LORD speaks to Moses as the flame in the Burning Bush, and is clearly God Himself, and proclaims Himself to be I AM. As does Jesus in John 8:58: "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" There is nothing new about any of this. This is why Paul writes later, in AD 55, to the Corinthian church, "But to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." (1 Corinthians 1:24)Jesus proclaims Himself to be the Wisdom of God. This is why He teaches, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." (John 14:9)That is why John says that the Word was in the Beginning, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. That's why Paul says "He is the image of invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."    (Colossians 1:15-17)John writes, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (John 1:3)So we see how the Son of Man and Wisdom of God concepts come together. Paul and John are drawing from the revelation God gave to King Solomon in Proverbs 8. Paul also draws from Daniel 7:14. That is why Jesus says: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Matthew 28:18)If you believe Jesus is a prophet, and see how the second messenger who proclaims the covenant is YHWH Himself, in Malachi 3, then you must bow the knee to Jesus Himself, to the glory of God the Father.The Father shall have the last word. "This is my Son, whom I love, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him!"(Matthew 17:5)



Erin,
I am just amazed at how you used water , ice and steam to describe three persons God in your belief. It is quite entertaining and looks pityful at the same time.
You know that water is made of hydrogen and oxygen (H2O), does that adds up to your argument? It expands in its frozen state and shrinks when liquid.
Until 2006 there were 117 elements discovered by man, as of 2011 there were 119. You may all find all sorts of connections and explanations to describe who, God!

The reality is that human mind is so innovative that it will find explanations for anything, that pleases him/her.

But when we look at what God has told us about Himself, we find it amazingly clear. Whether you believe in the Bible, the Quran or even the Pagan religion of Hinduism surprisingly you will find unmistakably one common thing about God, God is One.

Those who think Jesus is God, need to read Jesus' word where he said: " my father and your father, my God and your God". Or those who say Jesus and God are equal in power to read their own book and listen to the words fo Jesus:" for my father is greater than I"
Those who think Holy spirit is God or equal to God for get that when you are equal or you are God, you are "not sent" as God do not follow anyone's command or order, God is not sent.
How can some close their eyes from what is so clearly written and to be taken seriously, yet they look the other way thinking that they are capable of describing God better assigning God, sons and daughters and mothers and fathers. It's like coming in light and then turning that light off thinking no one can see them to whatever they do or whatever they say, to their own loss? In fantasies of their mind, of steam, ice and water to describe God, who has always been One and described Himself as such as He knew humans are good to make up pretty bizarre innovations as they please, except those who believe, believe in absolute Oneness of God, as God has taught them Himself.
Most of what you wrote is word for word repetition of what I hear from people like you and sounds like a parrot repeating words without understanding what it is repeating. You say Jesus was the first creation. That seem to be only an invention. If this was true, Moses would have mentioned it big time, David would have mentioned it big time. The funny thing is that this claim of Jesus being the fist creation should have been know by all of God's prophets that came. The reality is that none have mentioned such a thing that God has a son his name is Jesus and he is with God since beginning. Jesus (pbuh) was God's creation, his servant, his beloved prophet to guide mankind.
Here is the First command God gave to believers of the old, now knows as the followers of the OT: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
There is no mention of God being a Trinity, no son (Jesus)is ever mentioned, God the father, God the Holy Ghost no mention of such trinity as we see followers of Jesus claim. In fact none of any God's prophets before mentioned it, does that not wake you guys up?

2:255 (Y. Ali) Allah. there is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. no slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 27 November 2012 at 10:41am
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Mahdi The Seeke Replybullet Posted: 21 January 2013 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Water ice and steam is heretical as Water has to solidify to be ice and become gas to be steam. That's actually an analogy fora heretical form of Unitarianism called Sabellianism, in this case Modalism. The Father becomes the Son becomes the Holy Spirit. A better analogy is the Sun, which has a core, a visible photosphere which is what we see and the outer invisible coronasphere which is visible normally only in hydrogen-alpha light and at solar eclipses, the coronasphere being in uity with the solar wind and the Sun's magnetosphere. But since the Sun is a finite object and God is infinite, the model breaks down, but it gets closer to what God is doing and is continually. Since the Wisdom of God is a case of God being exalted by King Solomon and Wisdom refers to itself as the craftsman at God's side to Solomon, then Wisdom is God. Wisdom is an attribute of God so powerful that Wisdom can create the Universe (And God reveals to Isaiah that God did so alone.) Therefore Wisdom is a personal living projection- a hypostasis of God, our wisdom is only finite and is merely our good judgement. In God's case it is a second point of consciousness. I'm not starting a new religion. Jesus is Wisdom, and teaches Himself to be so. "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners". But wisdom is proved right by her actions." (Matthew 11:19) It's interesting how Jesus preaches of the Son of Man and Wisdom in the same breath. I'll get back to that in a moment. With reference to the Queen of Sheba, Jesus says, "The Queen of the South will rise at the judgement with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here." (Matthew 12:42)Jesus links Himself with Wisdom further using feminine imagery for Himself: "How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." (Matthew 23:37)Jesus, on trial before Caiaphas, is put on oath by the High Priest. "The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses?" (Matthew 26:63-65.)Compare this with Daniel 7:13-14. "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed." Compare this with:"For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and voer his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and for ever." (Isaiah 9:6-7)The Son of Man, the Messiah, God and Wisdom are all interconnected. Hence why John writes:"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)"My Father is always at his work to this day, and I too am working." (John 5:17)"For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man." (John 5:26-27)"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." (John 7:37-38) This is a summary of those teachigns about Wisdom in Ecclesiasticus by Rabbi Jesus Ben Sirach, whom the Lord Jesus approved of in this instance. (It doesn't canonise the book but certainly canonises the teaching given in that book on Wisdom and the Holy Spirit being like living water.)To quote from yourself, Abu:Interesting. Now you are saying that wisdom created the world alongside
God? In that case why don't you add wisdom to the Trinity and make it a
Quadrinity?
No need, Jesus is Wisdom. Wisdom and Word is what the term 'Son' symbolises.The Son of Man who Jesus claims to be, is not the only image of a Hypostatic mirror image of God, along with Wisdom. Look at Exodus 23:20-22. This is no ordinary angel God is discussing: "See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him." And don't forget, in Exodus 3 and 4 the Angel of the LORD speaks to Moses as the flame in the Burning Bush, and is clearly God Himself, and proclaims Himself to be I AM. As does Jesus in John 8:58: "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" There is nothing new about any of this. This is why Paul writes later, in AD 55, to the Corinthian church, "But to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." (1 Corinthians 1:24)Jesus proclaims Himself to be the Wisdom of God. This is why He teaches, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father." (John 14:9)That is why John says that the Word was in the Beginning, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. That's why Paul says "He is the image of invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."    (Colossians 1:15-17)John writes, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (John 1:3)So we see how the Son of Man and Wisdom of God concepts come together. Paul and John are drawing from the revelation God gave to King Solomon in Proverbs 8. Paul also draws from Daniel 7:14. That is why Jesus says: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Matthew 28:18)If you believe Jesus is a prophet, and see how the second messenger who proclaims the covenant is YHWH Himself, in Malachi 3, then you must bow the knee to Jesus Himself, to the glory of God the Father.The Father shall have the last word. "This is my Son, whom I love, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him!"(Matthew 17:5)



Erin,
I am just amazed at how you used water , ice and steam to describe three persons God in your belief. It is quite entertaining and looks pityful at the same time.
You know that water is made of hydrogen and oxygen (H2O), does that adds up to your argument? It expands in its frozen state and shrinks when liquid.
Until 2006 there were 117 elements discovered by man, as of 2011 there were 119. You may all find all sorts of connections and explanations to describe who, God!

The reality is that human mind is so innovative that it will find explanations for anything, that pleases him/her.

But when we look at what God has told us about Himself, we find it amazingly clear. Whether you believe in the Bible, the Quran or even the Pagan religion of Hinduism surprisingly you will find unmistakably one common thing about God, God is One.

Those who think Jesus is God, need to read Jesus' word where he said: " my father and your father, my God and your God". Or those who say Jesus and God are equal in power to read their own book and listen to the words fo Jesus:" for my father is greater than I"
Those who think Holy spirit is God or equal to God for get that when you are equal or you are God, you are "not sent" as God do not follow anyone's command or order, God is not sent.
How can some close their eyes from what is so clearly written and to be taken seriously, yet they look the other way thinking that they are capable of describing God better assigning God, sons and daughters and mothers and fathers. It's like coming in light and then turning that light off thinking no one can see them to whatever they do or whatever they say, to their own loss? In fantasies of their mind, of steam, ice and water to describe God, who has always been One and described Himself as such as He knew humans are good to make up pretty bizarre innovations as they please, except those who believe, believe in absolute Oneness of God, as God has taught them Himself.
Most of what you wrote is word for word repetition of what I hear from people like you and sounds like a parrot repeating words without understanding what it is repeating. You say Jesus was the first creation. That seem to be only an invention. If this was true, Moses would have mentioned it big time, David would have mentioned it big time. The funny thing is that this claim of Jesus being the fist creation should have been know by all of God's prophets that came. The reality is that none have mentioned such a thing that God has a son his name is Jesus and he is with God since beginning. Jesus (pbuh) was God's creation, his servant, his beloved prophet to guide mankind.
Here is the First command God gave to believers of the old, now knows as the followers of the OT: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
There is no mention of God being a Trinity, no son (Jesus)is ever mentioned, God the father, God the Holy Ghost no mention of such trinity as we see followers of Jesus claim. In fact none of any God's prophets before mentioned it, does that not wake you guys up?

2:255 (Y. Ali) Allah. there is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. no slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
Hasan

Fantastic post.
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