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Message Icon Topic: From where did the trinity teaching come? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 17 October 2012 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
seems like a new idea, never mentioned in the entire Biblical history prior to this. None of the OT prophets nor their teachings ever mentioned that God consists of three persons equal in power as described by this new Christian idea about God. Any reference prior to the NT that can prove Trinity?
Hasan


Was there a Trinity before God decided to come to His people in the flesh... i.e.... as the Living Word... i.e., before the incarnation of Himself in the flesh, as a Son, i.e., before Jesus?


Edited by Caringheart - 17 October 2012 at 4:48pm
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 18 October 2012 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by Caringheart



Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
seems like a new idea, never mentioned in the entire Biblical history prior to this. None of the OT prophets nor their teachings ever mentioned that God consists of three persons equal in power as described by this new Christian idea about God. Any reference prior to the NT that can prove Trinity?
Hasan
Was there a Trinity before God decided to come to His people in the flesh... i.e.... as the Living Word... i.e., before the incarnation of Himself in the flesh, as a Son, i.e., before Jesus?


Caringheart,
I asked a question, should I wait first to get your answer or get my self tangled with a question?
Anyway, you ask " Was there a Trinity before God decided to come to His people in the flesh"
I will answer this question but I hope you to be decent enough to answer the question I ask, or be brave to say, no there is no reference before in none of the OT books!

God coming in flesh? you ask. In OT there is no mention or prophecy that says that God will come to the earth, in flesh, as a man.
And don't you guys say that Jesus was there with God before. If so, where is that mentioned in the OT? nowhere, right?
Further you make no sense when you say, "God decided to come in flesh" and then to say "as a son".
Please, answer the question and leave the things that don't make sense.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 18 October 2012 at 3:11pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Salaam_Erin
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Quote Salaam_Erin Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2012 at 9:37am
Hello.  What a mass of confusion!  Ig one thing is confirmed here, is how God is greater than all of us, and He cannot be fully understood except by Himself.  But I will give as best I can my understanding ot the origins of the doctrine of the Trinity.  The Church Councils of the 4th century constitute the ending of the process of understanding and defining the doctrine.  but the doctrine was around from the 1st century itself.  If one is to believe the Bible, the first ever trinitarian statement was by Gabriel announcing to Mary her pregnancy as a virgin.  (Luke 1:29-37)  The Most High is obviously the Father.  The Holy Spirit is clearly defined as God here by Gabriel, as the Holy Spirit is who conceives the child when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary (not sexually, but focusing His power on her to activate her egg).  The Power of the Most High overshadowing Mary, that is Jesus before conception as a human, entering the egg.  But that's to do with the doctrine of the Incarnation of Jesus, that last detail, but the term Power of the Most High is more relevant.  Because Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God, there would not have been an explicit doctrine of the Trinity before.  However, there is the long forgotten (by Jews, who are largely Unitarian now) Jewish Wisdom Theology, in which God is revealed to be One, yes, but also within His singular nature, He is revealed to be Hypostatic, endowed with the power of personhood.  God's Wisdom is so powerful that it is literally, eternally, personified.  God's Wisdom can thin and speak for itself.  Wisdom is revealed speaking to King Solomon.  See Proverbs 8:22-36.  Incidentally, the best translation I have seen of this is from the Jewish Chorev Keter-Crown Bible.  Wisdom tells Solomon that Wisdom was the craftsman at God's side, and made the universe- yet God tells Isaiah that He alone created the Universe.  The answer then is that God and His Wisdom are the same thing, but different personae of the same thing.  Hence why God talks in the Royal We in Genesis.  but the verbs of what He says 'We' will do, are in the singular.  Yes, in Deuteronomy 6:4, God is One, but the Hebrew word is Echad, the same word to say that Adam and Eve were one flesh (Basar Echad) (Genesis 2:24) and to describe a bunch of grapes (Echad Eschcol) (Numbers 13:23).  The terms means a compound unity.  The Hebrew word for absolute oneness in the sense of Unitarianism and Tawheed is Yachid, the word Maimonides used for the Shema. 

Two interesting passages which point to God coming to Moses in more than one aspect are: Exodus 23:20-23 and Exodus 33:7-23 and read them carefully.

Also study the Angel of the LORD passages and even some of the ancient Rabbis had the concept of the Memra and the Shekinah.

The Shekinah was the glow of God's presence, which filled the Tabernacle on its consecration, and the same with Solomon's Temple.  Jesus is shown to be a Walking Shekinah according to the story of the Transfiguration. 

Some notes.  The name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to Matthew 28 is the same name. 

John 14-16, a passage which Muslims like to think is about Jesus prophesying Muhammad, is in reality a key plank in the doctrine of the Trinity.   Compare John 14:16, 14:26, and John 16:7, and see that Jesus is teaching He and the Father will jointly send the Parakletos.  This Parakletos is invisible (John 14:17), He was alive in AD 33 (John 14:17).  His job is to do with the preservation of the Injeel (John 14:26).  The Parakletos is to bring glory to Jesus (John 16:14)  The Parakletos' job is centred around Jesus.  Finally, look at John 16:15.  Now there is a Trinitarian verse if ever there was one.  How could this be about Muhammad.  Why then should Muslims even consider this passage to be a prophecy about Muhammad?  There is nobody on this Earth, Christian or Muslim, who believes in a Trinity of Allah, Jesus and Muhammad.  Not one.  That would be absurd.  Let's slot in Muhammad in these references and see what we get.  The world cannot accept Muhammad, because it neither sees him nor knows him.  But you know him, for he lives in you and will be in you (as in Jesus' disciples in AD 33).  But Muhammad whom the Father will send in Jesus' name, will teach you of all things and will remind you of everything that Jesus has said to who?  His disciples in AD 33.  But I thought Muhammad's ministry started in AD 610.  If Jesus goes, he will send Muhammad to you.  Muhammad will give glory to Jesus by taking from what is Jesus' and giving it to Jesus' disciples in AD 33.  All that belongs to Allah is Jesus'.  That is why Jesus said that Muhammad will take from what is Jesus' and give it to Jesus' disciples.  By paraphrasing it, do you see the problem?  This is NOT about being disrespectful to Muhammad, not at all.  Rather it is to show that this passage is Trinitarian and so Muslims should not even begin to consider this passage as a prophecy about Admed by Jesus.  You will need to look elsewhere for that, especially as this is a Trinitarian passage, and John 16:15 is as Triniatarian (and 1st century) as it gets. 

As for the word Trinity not being in the Bible, well, the term comes from Latin.  The New Testament was written in Greek.     

This actually provides a context for Jesus saying "the Father is greater than I."  (John 14:28)  He makes it clear that the Holy Spirit cannot be sent until He goes back to the Father for that reason.  He cannot ask the Father, until He goes to the Father as the Father is greater than He.  He cannot jointly send the Spirit until He goes to the Father because, again, teh Father is greater than He.  This is in spite of the fact that Jesus teaches that with the Parakletos living in the disciples the Father and Son will live in them too (John 14:23).  What is going on then?  Jesus says all that the Father has belongs to Him.  But the Father is greater than He?  The logical conclusion is that according to this passage the Father is greater than Jesus in position, as being on the Throne of Heaven as opposed to Jesus being a human on Earth.  Jesus therefore needs to return to the Father to be in equal status.  The implication is of a voluntary and temporary subordination of Jesus to the Father in time as a human, but of equality with the Father spiritually.  Therefore surely John 14-16 is a Trinitarian passage Muslims would be wise to avoid if they wish to use it to say that Jesus prophesied the coming of Muhammad.  They need to try somewhere else.  And another thing.  I've checked the critical apparati of the Greek New Testament and the textual commentaries, and this passage has not been changed.  Food for thought.         
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 01 November 2012 at 3:07pm
We know from where the Trinity teachings came from and when. The Trinity was never a part of Jewish teachings or the Law. And Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew according to Christians thus inhis own belief there was no such thing as a Trinity.
I think there is nothing more to it, even though some may like to write pages on the same, its worth just that many lines.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Salaam_Erin Replybullet Posted: 02 November 2012 at 9:13am
So what about Proverbs 8?  Have you even read through the stuff on Hypostasis and Jewish Wisdom Theology?  Also, to say "Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew according to Christians thus inhis own belief there was no such thing as a Trinity" shows a lack of knowledge of the full discussion Jesus makes in John 14-16.   As I said above, "ohn 14-16, a passage which Muslims like to think is about Jesus prophesying Muhammad, is in reality a key plank in the doctrine of the Trinity.   Compare John 14:16, 14:26, and John 16:7, and see that Jesus is teaching He and the Father will jointly send the Parakletos.  This Parakletos is invisible (John 14:17), He was alive in AD 33 (John 14:17).  His job is to do with the preservation of the Injeel (John 14:26).  The Parakletos is to bring glory to Jesus (John 16:14)  The Parakletos' job is centred around Jesus.  Finally, look at John 16:15.  Now there is a Trinitarian verse if ever there was one.  How could this be about Muhammad.  Why then should Muslims even consider this passage to be a prophecy about Muhammad?  There is nobody on this Earth, Christian or Muslim, who believes in a Trinity of Allah, Jesus and Muhammad.  Not one.  That would be absurd.  Let's slot in Muhammad in these references and see what we get.  The world cannot accept Muhammad, because it neither sees him nor knows him.  But you know him, for he lives in you and will be in you (as in Jesus' disciples in AD 33).  But Muhammad whom the Father will send in Jesus' name, will teach you of all things and will remind you of everything that Jesus has said to who?  His disciples in AD 33.  But I thought Muhammad's ministry started in AD 610.  If Jesus goes, he will send Muhammad to you.  Muhammad will give glory to Jesus by taking from what is Jesus' and giving it to Jesus' disciples in AD 33.  All that belongs to Allah is Jesus'.  That is why Jesus said that Muhammad will take from what is Jesus' and give it to Jesus' disciples.  By paraphrasing it, do you see the problem?  This is NOT about being disrespectful to Muhammad, not at all.  Rather it is to show that this passage is Trinitarian and so Muslims should not even begin to consider this passage as a prophecy about Admed by Jesus.  You will need to look elsewhere for that, especially as this is a Trinitarian passage, and John 16:15 is as Triniatarian (and 1st century) as it gets. "  Since the textual evidence shows this discussion has not been altered, and since Muslims use this to justify the view that Jesus prophesied Muhammad, dismissing it with a handwave is, well, just plain embarrassing.
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 04 November 2012 at 10:36am
Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

So what about Proverbs 8? 
 
What about it? You are not seriously saying that Proverbs 8 is referring to Jesus (pbuh) and is a prophecy of him? If you are that is because you have this idea of the Trinity in your head, if you then take that out then you will know what Proverbs are all about.
 
With reference to the Gospel of John, modern scholars confirm that there are later additions that are not found in the earlier copies. So the logical conclusion is that most of John has been 'doctored'.
 
If you are a Trinitarian then there is no hope for you as you will not look at this with an open heart, you will always be leaning towards the Trinitarian doctrine.
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Quote Salaam_Erin Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2012 at 5:04am
You are still ignoring the clear teaching in the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, that God is Hypostatic, not monadic.  This is something which is clearly taught in Proverbs 8.  As for John being 'doctored', there is not a shred of evidence for this assertion.  Produce me the scholars, produce me the actual manuscript evidence, because I have in my possession textual commentaries and critical apparati, easily available to the public, which help me to track down every reading for any part of John's Gospel.  Believe me, John 14-17 is authentic. 

If you are making a garbled and confused reference to the Story of the Woman Caught in Adultery, that is a floating mini Gospel in its own right, and of no relevance to the doctrine of the Trinity, which is not about 3 gods, but about a Hypostatic God, whose nerve centre (the 'Father') has a Wisdom so powerful that this Wisdom was able to interact with God's nerve centre and create the Universe, and also communicate to King Solomon about being the craftsman at God's side.  This does not make Wisdom the partner of God, but the self-expression of everything that God is.    
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 07 November 2012 at 8:49pm
Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

You are still ignoring the clear teaching in the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, that God is Hypostatic, not monadic.  This is something which is clearly taught in Proverbs 8.  As for John being 'doctored', there is not a shred of evidence for this assertion.  Produce me the scholars, produce me the actual manuscript evidence, because I have in my possession textual commentaries and critical apparati, easily available to the public, which help me to track down every reading for any part of John's Gospel.  Believe me, John 14-17 is authentic. 
The teaching of the Old Testament is clear to you because you have this Trinity concept playing around in your head. The water, ice and steam concept is appealing to you but not to me unfortunately.

If you are not aware Proverbs are just exaltations of God by Prophet Solomon (pbuh) like the exaltations of God by his Father David (pbuh) with the Psalms. You people like to read too much into these things.
If you are making a garbled and confused reference to the Story of the Woman Caught in Adultery, that is a floating mini Gospel in its own right, and of no relevance to the doctrine of the Trinity, which is not about 3 gods, but about a Hypostatic God, whose nerve centre (the 'Father') has a Wisdom so powerful that this Wisdom was able to interact with God's nerve centre and create the Universe, and also communicate to King Solomon about being the craftsman at God's side.  This does not make Wisdom the partner of God, but the self-expression of everything that God is.    
 
 
Interesting. Now you are saying that wisdom created the world alongside God? In that case why don't you add wisdom to the Trinity and make it a Quadrinity?
 
Wisdom is one of the attributes of God which He gave to human beings in varying amounts. Just like mercy. Don't read too much into it.
 
If you are not careful you will start a new religion with your ideas as fantastcial and fanciful as they are.


Edited by Abu Loren - 07 November 2012 at 8:54pm
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