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Message Icon Topic: From where did the trinity teaching come? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Mansoor_ali
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2011 at 1:53pm

 To Douggg

 Hi Mansoor, "...and from Jesus Christ" is verifying that he is the Almighty who is, who was, and who is to come.

 
 My Response to Douggg

 
Jesus is NOT the one who is and which was and is to come,take note:

 Revelation 1:2-5(NIV)


 
who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
Greetings and Doxology
 4 John,

   To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

   Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.


 So as you could see for yourself, the one who is and was and is to come is not Jesus.Lets break it down:

 John to the seven churches in the province of Asia:Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come.

 This is THE God talking not Jesus,because note now what Jesus says means he is not the one speaking:

 5 and from Jesus Christ,


 AND FROM JESUS meaning that the first speaker was not Jesus or it would not say AND Jesus.The fact it says AND Jesus shows the one who said I was and is and to come was not Jesus!

 AND FROM JESUS,meaning Jesus is a different person than the one who said I was and is to come.So this is crystal clear proof that the Revelation 1 is not Jesus since the speaker of Revelation 1 is the one who is,the one that was,and the one who will come and that my friend is not Jesus because there was a distinction made between the two.


 



 




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Mansoor_ali
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2011 at 2:33pm

 To Douggg.

 Hi Mansoor, did Mohamed say with his own lips that he is "The Truth", "The Resurrection", the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last?    I don't think so.
I don't think Mohamed made any of those claims.    Nor do I think that others said those things about him.   Because those attributes are unique to God.   And Jesus with his own lips said those things about himself.    I quoted and provided the verses.

Your source Ali Ataie is making a strawman argument because the two attributes of kind and merciful are not the three attributes that I referred to.


 Allah says in the Surah 22 verse 7 that he is The Resurrecter.No where in the entire Quran Allah is called The Resurrection.It is a big difference Douggg.But Jesus said in the John 11 "I am the resurrection" Jesus didnot say that he is the resurrecter.He said I am the resurrection but didnot say I am the resurrecter.

 Regarding Alpha and Omega please visit:

 http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=150

 http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=151

 http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=153

 http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=155

 http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=156


 Now regarding Jesus saying I am The Truth.Context of verse doesnot prove that Jesus is God.The following article belongs to the Muslim-SA@acsu.buffalo.edu Islamic Student Organization:

 
 "In my Father's house are many mansions (dwelling places); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion (a dwelling place) for you."

The above statement is quite clear. It is in exact conformance to the teachings of the Qur'an. In the Qur'an we are told how God sent messengers to all tribes and nations. We are told that the basic message which was given to each of these tribes was the same: "Worship God alone and worship none else." Some of the secondary details of this worship might differ from one tribe or nation to the next according to God's infinite wisdom and his knowledge of those people. It was made very clear to each prophet that he was not to preach to anyone but his own people. It was further made clear to this messenger's people that if they were to obey him that they would receive the reward of God. God would not hold them accountable for what any other tribe or nation did or did not do. This would continue until God's last messenger, Muhammad (pbuh) would be sent to all mankind as the seal of the prophets.
This is exactly what Jesus is saying here. He said that in God's mansion there are "many" rooms. Jesus was sent to guide to only one of them. The countless other rooms were reserved for other tribes and nations if they would obey their messengers. However, Jesus was telling his followers that they need not worry themselves about the other rooms. Anyone from among his people who wished to enter into the room which was reserved for them could only do so if they followed Jesus and obeyed his command. So Jesus confirmed that he was going to prepare "a" mansion and not "all" the mansions in "my Father's house".

Further, the verse clearly states that Jesus was the "WAY" to a mansion. He did not say that he is the "DESTINATION" which would be the case if he were God. What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except "I am the 'way' to God's mercy"? That is his job. That is what a prophet does. It is why God chose him in the first place; in order to guide to the mercy of God. This is indeed confirmed in John 10:9 where Jesus tells us that he is "the door" to "the pasture." In other words, he is the "prophet" who guides his people to "heaven" (see also Jn. 12:44). Once again, this is the message of Islam.

 

 

 

 
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Quote Douggg Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2011 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


  My Response to Douggg

 
Jesus is NOT the one who is and which was and is to come,take note:

 Revelation 1:2-5(NIV)


 
who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.


Hi Mansoor,  Revelation 19:
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
***********************************
Mansoor:  Greetings and Doxology
4 John,

   To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

   Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. 

*************************************

(Doug)

Mansoor, that verse says the firstborn from the dead.   Mohamed said that Jesus didn't die.   So is verse 5 you quoted as "first born from the dead" true?   Or did Mohamed make up a falsehood about Jesus not having been crucified?

**********************************

Mansoor writes:  So as you could see for yourself, the one who is and was and is to come is not Jesus.Lets break it down:

 John to the seven churches in the province of Asia:Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come.

 This is THE God talking not Jesus,because note now what Jesus says means he is not the one speaking:  

 5 and from Jesus Christ,


 AND FROM JESUS meaning that the first speaker was not Jesus or it would not say AND Jesus.The fact it says AND Jesus shows the one who said I was and is and to come was not Jesus!

 AND FROM JESUS,meaning Jesus is a different person than the one who said I was and is to come.  So this is crystal clear proof that the Revelation 1 is not Jesus since the speaker of Revelation 1 is the one who is,the one that was,and the one who will come and that my friend is not Jesus because there was a distinction made between the two. [/quote]

*******************************************

Doug replies:

Okay, here are the verses Revelation 1:17-18 to end this argument and disprove Islam.    Are you telling me God was dead (verse 18 )?   Prove that by the bible or Koran.   Jesus himself is clearly saying that he is God.    And verse 18 verifies that it is Jesus talking.  

 17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.




Edited by Douggg - 19 May 2011 at 10:01pm
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2011 at 4:01pm
Dougg,
I showed you the facts and the truth about what we are discussing, you live by what you believe, I live by the truth.
You said Jesus was to die to pay for sins of people as a preplan deal, and that it was needed because without it mankind could not be freed from sin and thus would have ended up in hell. I showed you that there is a verse, that kicks that idea and that verse contradicts you claim. Interestingly, it comes from your own source the Bible. This time I am quoting it as it appears word for word:
John 15: 22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin."
 
And it does not end there, Luke tells us a complete different story, he says: Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
So according to him here, unless you repent, it will not work.
 
Only truth, and surrundering to the truth will avail us anything, rest will do us harm.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Douggg Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2011 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by honeto

Dougg,
I showed you the facts and the truth about what we are discussing, you live by what you believe, I live by the truth.


When you quote from the bible, that quote unaltered is the truth.   It's Islam's interpretation where the problem is.   You, assuming that you are living as a muslim, are living the life that mohamed and the writers of the hadiths teach, which conflicts with the bible.


You said Jesus was to die to pay for sins of people as a preplan deal, and that it was needed because without it mankind could not be freed from sin and thus would have ended up in hell. I showed you that there is a verse, that kicks that idea and that verse contradicts you claim. Interestingly, it comes from your own source the Bible. This time I am quoting it as it appears word for word:
John 15: 22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin."


Okay, let's go with your NIV translation.   In context, Jesus was referring to the persecution that his disciples would undergo.   Because those persons who would be persecuting the disciples witnessed all the miracles Jesus did, so their sin of persecuting the disciples would be without excuse.

18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’


And it does not end there, Luke tells us a complete different story, he says: Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
So according to him here, unless you repent, it will not work.
 
Only truth, and surrundering to the truth will avail us anything, rest will do us harm.
Hasan


No-one can come to Christ for salvation without a repentant heart.  

Luke 24:
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.






Edited by Douggg - 21 May 2011 at 9:49pm
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 26 May 2011 at 10:32am
Dougg,
I agree we Muslims live a different life than you. We only worship God, God of Jesus. You worship Jesus along with his God. That is a very big difference. Worshipping God's creation is a grave sin and it is an unforgiveable sin, according to the Quran and the previous scriptures as well.
You repeat bits and pieces that only support the part you believe yet the same contradicts the very source you take it from, the Bible. For example the quote from it I presented above: " Unless you repent, you too will all  perish"
 
Hasan
 
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 13 October 2012 at 12:42pm
Answering the question that is the title of the thread;
Where does trinity teaching come from?

John, the beloved Apostle;
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Jesus is that Word... the Word of God... He is the living Word. Smile
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2012 at 3:31pm
Caringheart,
seems like a new idea, never mentioned in the entire Biblical history prior to this. None of the OT prophets nor their teachings ever mentioned that God consists of three persons equal in power as described by this new Christian idea about God. Any reference prior to the NT that can prove Trinity?
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 15 October 2012 at 3:32pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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