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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: From where did the trinity teaching come? Post Reply Post New Topic
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AgnesDei
 
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Quote AgnesDei Replybullet Posted: 08 May 2011 at 7:19am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


 To Douggg

 Your god Allah has 99 names.   All equal.  Is your god's name "the Truth"?  Yes.   Jesus with his own mouth said I am the Truth....John 14:6

 Response by brother
Ali Ataie:

 
The Christian may inform you that Jesus claimed to be
"the truth," or al-Haqq in Arabic, which is one of the Divine attributes of God mentioned in the Qur’an. "He is using a divine attribute to refer to himself, an attribute found in your scripture," he will say. Inform him that the words Ra’uf and Rahim, mean Kind and Merciful respectively, are also attributed to God in the Qur’an. However, Allah reveals in Surah Tawbah, verse 128: "Now hath come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers he is most kind and merciful" (Qur’an 9:128). The words Allah used to describe the character of his Beloved are Ra’uf and Rahim, two of the divine attributes! Does this make Muhammad God? Certainly not. He simply embodies many of the sacred attributes at a much smaller, human level. By the same token, we can say that Muhammad is Great, Noble, Generous, and Truth He is not, however, "The Creator," or "The Giver of Life and Death." These attributes are solely for God and nowhere does Jesus ever claim to be these things.(Source)
 
Mansoor, you really need to study the Bible with your eyes open.  YES, Jesus says many times that He is God.....He says they are "the same", "the Father and I ARE ONE."  You are trying to reinterpret these verses, but to do so is heresy.  Jesus Christ says HE IS THE FATHER (GOD), where he says 'we are one'.  Why do you try so hard NOT to believe this?  Are you calling Jesus a liar?  I hope not, my friend. 
 
Peace be with you,
Patty
"When wicked tongues insult and hate you all because of me, blessed, blessed are you." By Jesus, the Christ
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 08 May 2011 at 2:52pm
The Bible has a problem.  It cannot make up its mind whether Jesus is God or not. Christians happily point to verses where Jesus supposedly says "I and the Father are one", but then when someone points out that Jesus also said "I am going to your God and my God", they dismiss it as irrelevant and say things like "well Jesus is both man and God and also his son".  For Muslims, this is the ultimate heresy.  It shows that the Bible is the work of multiple hands.  Jesus was not the liar.  The people who tried to speak in his name and created a new ideology were the liars. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Douggg Replybullet Posted: 09 May 2011 at 6:28am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


Response by brother Ali Ataie:

 
The Christian may inform you that Jesus claimed to be
"the truth," or al-Haqq in Arabic, which is one of the Divine attributes of God mentioned in the Qur’an. "He is using a divine attribute to refer to himself, an attribute found in your scripture," he will say. Inform him that the words Ra’uf and Rahim, mean Kind and Merciful respectively, are also attributed to God in the Qur’an. However, Allah reveals in Surah Tawbah, verse 128: "Now hath come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers he is most kind and merciful" (Qur’an 9:128). The words Allah used to describe the character of his Beloved are Ra’uf and Rahim, two of the divine attributes! Does this make Muhammad God? Certainly not. He simply embodies many of the sacred attributes at a much smaller, human level. By the same token, we can say that Muhammad is Great, Noble, Generous, and Truth He is not, however, "The Creator," or "The Giver of Life and Death." These attributes are solely for God and nowhere does Jesus ever claim to be these things.(Source)


Hi Mansoor, did Mohamed say with his own lips that he is "The Truth", "The Resurrection", the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last?    I don't think so.
I don't think Mohamed made any of those claims.    Nor do I think that others said those things about him.   Because those attributes are unique to God.   And Jesus with his own lips said those things about himself.    I quoted and provided the verses.

Your source Ali Ataie is making a strawman argument because the two attributes of kind and merciful are not the three attributes that I referred to.

Doug L.

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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 09 May 2011 at 2:38pm
Dougg,
you admit and agree with me on the point that no one was expecting God to come on earth when they were expecting the Messiah. But then you repeat the sensless phrase again "God came on earth  to be with us? and to pay for us through killing himself? "
You will never make sense with that, because it is not true, and a baseless and untrue thing will never make sense. 
I agree that we cannot fully undersand or know God, God's love, and if I may add His Justice but that does not give us any right to say and utter anything about God that we like, while you agree with me that we have limits over knowledge. Also it is our obligation to think and weigh before we utter anything. We are carefull when giving account in front of a lawyer or the law, but such a lose tongue in front of God (because you don't see the justice right away? and to say things like God is a man, who was born through a woman, ate, cried, served his God, died and so on. Or like a Hindus' claim that God came in the form of his creatures, like an elephant or a monkey? I see no difference between you two. Both are uttering blasphemy for which you will held accountable one day for sure, unless you ask His forgiveness and never utter such a thing again.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 09 May 2011 at 2:57pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Douggg
 
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Quote Douggg Replybullet Posted: 18 May 2011 at 4:54am
Originally posted by honeto

Dougg,
you admit and agree with me on the point that no one was expecting God to come on earth when they were expecting the Messiah. But then you repeat the sensless phrase again "God came on earth  to be with us? and to pay for us through killing himself? "


Hi Hasan,

God entered this world to save mankind from the penalty of sin which is eternal death.   "killing himself" is a misrepresentation.   Jesus laid down his life willingly.   A person is either in Christ or in their sins.    Muslims are in their sins because they reject God's way to wash those sins away.    

We are carefull when giving account in front of a lawyer or the law, but such a lose tongue in front of God (because you don't see the justice right away? and to say things like God is a man, who was born through a woman, ate, cried, served his God, died and so on.


You will never and have never heard a Christian say that Jesus became God, or that a man borne of a woman became God.     The person born into this world was God of all eternity before he entered this world.

Or like a Hindus' claim that God came in the form of his creatures, like an elephant or a monkey? I see no difference between you two. Both are uttering blasphemy for which you will held accountable one day for sure, unless you ask His forgiveness and never utter such a thing again.   Hasan


Man was created in the image of God, not the animals.    So how can God have an image?   Why?   What did God have in store?

Revelation 13:8 .....who names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.







Edited by Douggg - 18 May 2011 at 4:59am
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 18 May 2011 at 3:10pm
Dougg,
surely, one cover up leads to many exposures!
 
Also you are putting limits to God when you wrote:
"God entered this world to save mankind from the penalty of sin which is eternal death"
 
What you are saying is that for the Almighty to forgive sins is a difficults tasks or it has some steps or prerequisites? You indeed fall into your limited thinking my friend. God is All Powerful and able to fully execute His will without any steps or need. GOD IS FREE OF ALL NEEDS. If God wants to forgive no scene or drama, or liek you say a lamb, no lamb is needed. For us to understand it is said, that its like "fbe" and it is.
 
Also, you forgot those words you hold holy and from God, where Jesus is quoted to have said: " if I had not come they would not have any sin"
What you are saying is in contradiction to what Jesus has been quoted to have said in the Bible.
If according to you Jesus has laid down his live willingly, why would these words be quoted to have come out of his mouth when on the cross according to the Bible: 
"oh my God, why have you forsaken me"
So all those quotes in the Bible suggest that those contradiction in the words of God are man's handywork, not to mention they contradict the belief tend you preach.
 
Peace,
Hasan
 


Edited by honeto - 18 May 2011 at 3:20pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Douggg
 
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Quote Douggg Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2011 at 3:40am
Originally posted by honeto

Dougg,
surely, one cover up leads to many exposures!
 
Also you are putting limits to God when you wrote:"God entered this world to save mankind from the penalty of sin which is eternal death"
 
What you are saying is that for the Almighty to forgive sins is a difficults tasks or it has some steps or prerequisites? You indeed fall into your limited thinking my friend.


Hasan, it is not me who is putting limits on God.  It is Islam. 

You are thinking it is a case of God forgiving sins. 

Yes, Jesus forgave people of their sins, such as the woman accused of adultery - before he was crucified.  

What you are not getting by the power of the cross is that God because of Christ Jesus dying on the cross,  erased our past.    My sins, never happened.     Jesus is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8 ) .   My sins were put in him before I was ever born.  

Unsaved persons, like muslims, will stand before God in their sins.    My sins, in my life here on earth never happened.   It is not just a case of forgiveness.   It is erasing those sins. 

You hard drive has every sin you ever committed recorded on it, waiting to be played back on the day of judgment.    My hard drive is blank.   My sins never happened. 

Knowing this, what can Mohamed do for you now!  Mohamed didn't understand it.  He never did.   He was deceived by Satan. 

Also, you forgot those words you hold holy and from God, where Jesus is quoted to have said: " if I had not come they would not have any sin"  What you are saying is in contradiction to what Jesus has been quoted to have said in the Bible.


Hasan, for some reason the posting program is not working correctly.   It doesn't want to show your text.    You had referred to
" if I had not come they would not have any sin".

I don't know what translation you are using, but as you quoted it, it is a misrepresentation to what the text says.   Go to the kjv and reread that verse.  

If according to you Jesus has laid down his live willingly, why would these words be quoted to have come out of his mouth when on the cross according to the Bible: 
"oh my God, why have you forsaken me"


Jesus said those words because he who knew no sin, became our sin.    


Doug L.



Edited by Douggg - 19 May 2011 at 10:03pm
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Mansoor_ali
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 19 May 2011 at 1:05pm

 To AgnesDei

 Mansoor, you really need to study the Bible with your eyes open.  YES, Jesus says many times that He is God.....He says they are "the same", "the Father and I ARE ONE."  You are trying to reinterpret these verses, but to do so is heresy.  Jesus Christ says HE IS THE FATHER (GOD), where he says 'we are one'.  Why do you try so hard NOT to believe this?  Are you calling Jesus a liar?  I hope not, my friend. 
 
Peace be with you,
Patty

 Response by brother Shabir Ally to John 10 verse 30:

 "
John 10:30 is often quoted to show that Jesus is equal to God.  But when you read the verse in its context you will find that the passage taken as a whole proves the opposite. People are often content to quote the verse in isolation to show that Jesus said “I and the Father are one” and then the Jews picked up stones to stone him because they understood him to mean that he is claiming to be God.  It is only when you read the passage to see what comes before and after this verse that you will realise that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus was saying.  In fact, Jesus tried to explain what he meant, and the explanation he gave is still in the Bible for everyone to see.  It is surprising that so many people who say they love Jesus ignore his explanation and repeat the mistake which was made by the enemies of Jesus… When Jesus said, “I and the Father are one” (chapter 10, verse 30) the Jews picked up stones to stone him (verse 31).  Jesus could not understand their behaviour, because he had said nothing wrong.  So he asked them what he had done wrong to make them want to stone him (verse 32).  They replied that Jesus had committed blasphemy since he was only a man yet he claimed to be God (verse 33).  But it is clear from the Bible passage above that Jesus did not claim to be God.  He only claimed to be the Christ (verse 25).  When did he say he was God?  They were deliberately misquoting Jesus and putting words in his mouth which they will try to use later as false evidence against him so they could have an excuse to kill him. "
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