IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: From where did the trinity teaching come?

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Douggg

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Posted: 28 April 2011 at 12:31am

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

To Douggg

John 11:25(NIV)

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

I agree with this statement.He who believes in Jesus will live, by live it means you go to heaven, if you dont believe in Jesus you will die, by die it means going to hell. This applies to every prophet.Again Christ is not divine according to John 11:25.

Seems to me that you are only believing part of that verse. Do you believe that Jesus is the resurrection as he said? Islam says that Allah is the resurrection.

Edited by Douggg - 28 April 2011 at 12:43am

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islamispeace
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Posted: 28 April 2011 at 3:14pm

Originally posted by Douggg

Seems to me that you are only believing part of that verse. Do you believe that Jesus is the resurrection as he said? Islam says that Allah is the resurrection.

Al-Ba'ith means "The Resurrector", not "The Resurrection".

The Quran also says of Allah:

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him." (112:1-4)

None of this can apply to a mere mortal like Jesus (pbuh).

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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honeto

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Posted: 04 May 2011 at 11:43am

Originally posted by Douggg

Hi Mansoor, the Lord Jesus is the Lord God. In all of those translations is this phrase: "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty".

The phrase "who is to come" identifies the Lord God as Lord Jesus who will be returning to his world. That's why I included from the end of Revelation, 22:20. " Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

²⁰He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Doug,

what you said above has problems:

1) Nowhere it says and no one was expecting God to come on earth. God existed and is and always is near to us to even know what is in our hearts.

So, there is no evidence that anyone was expecting God to come. The Messiah is never meant to be God.

2) Anyone born through a woman certainly is not God.

3) Anyone who is born, was nursed, cleaned, protected, and raised by a mother cannot be God.

4) The same Bible you quote has proved your claim as false when it states that Jesus has himself said: " I am going to my God and your God" or " my Father is Greater than I"

How do you dodge those powerful facts? It's never too late to correct one's self as long as you do it berfore you are unable to do so!

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 04 May 2011 at 11:45am

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Mansoor_ali
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Posted: 05 May 2011 at 6:50am

To Douggg

Hi Mansoor, the Lord Jesus is the Lord God. In all of those translations is this phrase: "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty".

The phrase "who is to come" identifies the Lord God as Lord Jesus who will be returning to his world. That's why I included from the end of Revelation, 22:20. " Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

²⁰He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Read Revelation 1:4 and 5 carefully:

Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spiritsbefore his throne,and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth(NIV).

You see the difference?The separation between “the one who was, is and is to come” and Christ can be clearly seen.The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is God not Jesus Christ.

Recommended:
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=150

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Mansoor_ali
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Posted: 05 May 2011 at 10:14am

Originally posted by Douggg

Seems to me that you are only believing part of that verse. Do you believe that Jesus is the resurrection as he said? Islam says that Allah is the resurrection.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Al-Ba'ith means "The Resurrector", not "The Resurrection".

The Quran also says of Allah:

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him." (112:1-4)

None of this can apply to a mere mortal like Jesus (pbuh).

Good point by "islamispeace".

Allah is called "The Resurrecter" in the Surah 22 verse 7.But no where in the entire Quran Allah is referred as "The Resurrection".And as far as my knowledge is concerned no where in the entire Bible Jesus said "I am the Resurrecter" but Jesus said in the John 11 verse "I am the resurrection" So there is a clear difference.

But my question to Douggg:Why Jesus said "I am the resurrection"?Is he talking about his authority over death?Because we know Jesus raised Lazarus from a death.

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Douggg

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Posted: 07 May 2011 at 12:28pm

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Douggg

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

I think you didnot read NIV and NASB carefully.Let me quote Revelation 1:8

I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”(NIV)

I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."(NASB)

Now i am also quoting RSV:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega" this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus.

Hi Mansoor, the Lord Jesus is the Lord God. In all of those translations is this phrase: "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty".

The phrase "who is to come" identifies the Lord God as Lord Jesus who will be returning to his world. That's why I included from the end of Revelation, 22:20. " Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

²⁰He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Doug,

what you said above has problems:

1) Nowhere it says and no one was expecting God to come on earth. God existed and is and always is near to us to even know what is in our hearts.

Hi Hasan,

I agree that no-one was expecting God to enter this world as Jesus. The Jews were expecting a messiah along the lines of king David. In their understanding the main function of the messiah was to free them from control by the gentiles. That's why when Jesus was crucified and buried, the disciples were despondent thinking all was lost.

Satan, although he knew that Jesus was the Son of God, thought he had victory by preventing the Kingdom of God from being established on this earth by killing the King.

So, there is no evidence that anyone was expecting God to come. The Messiah is never meant to be God.

Not in their minds he wasn't expected to be God. But God came to be the messiah - save us from our sins savior.

ex2) Anyone born through a woman certainly is not God.

No-one coming forth from a man is God. One coming forth from God has to be God. Jesus said he came forth from the Father.

Jesus said before Abraham was, I am.

3) Anyone who is born, was nursed, cleaned, protected, and raised by a mother cannot be God.

Now you are making rules for God to obey? Shocked

4) The same Bible you quote has proved your claim as false when it states that Jesus has himself said: " I am going to my God and your God" or " my Father is Greater than I"

How do you dodge those powerful facts? It's never too late to correct one's self as long as you do it berfore you are unable to do so!

Man cannot fathom the unmeasurable love that God has for us. God became one of us, so that we can eternally relate to Him. Jesus calls himself the Son of Man all through the bible, yet His Father was not a man by his own account.

Doug L.

Edited by Douggg - 07 May 2011 at 1:46pm

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Douggg

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Posted: 07 May 2011 at 1:09pm

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

To Douggg

Hi Mansoor, the Lord Jesus is the Lord God. In all of those translations is this phrase: "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty".

The phrase "who is to come" identifies the Lord God as Lord Jesus who will be returning to his world. That's why I included from the end of Revelation, 22:20. " Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

²⁰He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Read Revelation 1:4 and 5 carefully:

Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spiritsbefore his throne,and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth(NIV).

You see the difference?The separation between “the one who was, is and is to come” and Christ can be clearly seen.The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is God not Jesus Christ.

Recommended:
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=150

Hi Mansoor, "...and from Jesus Christ" is verifying that he is the Almighty who is, who was, and who is to come.    Is Mohamed's god Allah "is to come"?
Jesus is coming.

Why didn't the disciples call Jesus or refer to Jesus as Jesus "Christ" during his ministry years? Except here, Matt 16:13-17. Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. In the ot, God says He is the only Savior.

Yet, why did Jesus make such a point of referring to himself as the Son of Man, even when he returns to this earth in great glory?     It is because God became one of us, the Son of Man, that we may know Him forever, and in order to have that fellowship we have to be cleaned up washed from our sins and recreated, which Christians are looking forward to completion on the day of our resurrection, or if we are alive at the time, being changed in the twinkling of an eye.   For we cannot stand before him in our sins.

Muslims reject God's offer and think that 50% clean is good enough.    Who said in the gospels, "if thou be the Son of God..."?     Mohamed also says that God has no Sons.....so guess where that message came from?

Doug L.

Edited by Douggg - 07 May 2011 at 1:45pm

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Mansoor_ali
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Posted: 08 May 2011 at 2:00am

To Douggg

Your god Allah has 99 names. All equal. Is your god's name "the Truth"? Yes. Jesus with his own mouth said I am the Truth....John 14:6

Response by brother Ali Ataie:

The Christian may inform you that Jesus claimed to be
"the truth," or al-Haqq in Arabic, which is one of the Divine attributes of God mentioned in the Qur’an. "He is using a divine attribute to refer to himself, an attribute found in your scripture," he will say. Inform him that the words Ra’uf and Rahim, mean Kind and Merciful respectively, are also attributed to God in the Qur’an. However, Allah reveals in Surah Tawbah, verse 128: "Now hath come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers he is most kind and merciful" (Qur’an 9:128). The words Allah used to describe the character of his Beloved are Ra’uf and Rahim, two of the divine attributes! Does this make Muhammad God? Certainly not. He simply embodies many of the sacred attributes at a much smaller, human level. By the same token, we can say that Muhammad is Great, Noble, Generous, and Truth He is not, however, "The Creator," or "The Giver of Life and Death." These attributes are solely for God and nowhere does Jesus ever claim to be these things.(Source)

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Topic: From where did the trinity teaching come?
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Author	Message
Douggg Guest Group Joined: 12 February 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 469	Posted: 28 April 2011 at 12:31am
	*Originally posted by Mansoor_ali* To Douggg John 11:25(NIV) Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” I agree with this statement.He who believes in Jesus will live, by live it means you go to heaven, if you dont believe in Jesus you will die, by die it means going to hell. This applies to every prophet.Again Christ is not divine according to John 11:25. Seems to me that you are only believing part of that verse. Do you believe that Jesus is the resurrection as he said? Islam says that Allah is the resurrection. Edited by Douggg - 28 April 2011 at 12:43am
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 28 April 2011 at 3:14pm
	*Originally posted by Douggg* *Originally posted by Mansoor_ali* To Douggg John 11:25(NIV) Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” I agree with this statement.He who believes in Jesus will live, by live it means you go to heaven, if you dont believe in Jesus you will die, by die it means going to hell. This applies to every prophet.Again Christ is not divine according to John 11:25. Seems to me that you are only believing part of that verse. Do you believe that Jesus is the resurrection as he said? Islam says that Allah is the resurrection. Al-Ba'ith means "The Resurrector", not "The Resurrection". The Quran also says of Allah: "Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him." (112:1-4) None of this can apply to a mere mortal like Jesus (pbuh).
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 04 May 2011 at 11:43am
	*Originally posted by Douggg* *Originally posted by Mansoor_ali* I think you didnot read NIV and NASB carefully.Let me quote Revelation 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”(NIV) I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."(NASB) Now i am also quoting RSV: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. "I am the Alpha and the Omega" this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus. Hi Mansoor, the Lord Jesus is the Lord God. In all of those translations is this phrase: "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty". The phrase "who is to come" identifies the Lord God as Lord Jesus who will be returning to his world. That's why I included from the end of Revelation, 22:20. " Even so, come, Lord Jesus." ²⁰He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Doug, what you said above has problems: 1) Nowhere it says and no one was expecting God to come on earth. God existed and is and always is near to us to even know what is in our hearts. So, there is no evidence that anyone was expecting God to come. The Messiah is never meant to be God. 2) Anyone born through a woman certainly is not God. 3) Anyone who is born, was nursed, cleaned, protected, and raised by a mother cannot be God. 4) The same Bible you quote has proved your claim as false when it states that Jesus has himself said: " I am going to my God and your God" or " my Father is Greater than I" How do you dodge those powerful facts? It's never too late to correct one's self as long as you do it berfore you are unable to do so! Hasan Edited by honeto - 04 May 2011 at 11:45am
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Mansoor_ali Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 581	Posted: 05 May 2011 at 6:50am
	To Douggg Hi Mansoor, the Lord Jesus is the Lord God. In all of those translations is this phrase: "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty". The phrase "who is to come" identifies the Lord God as Lord Jesus who will be returning to his world. That's why I included from the end of Revelation, 22:20. " Even so, come, Lord Jesus." ²⁰He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Read Revelation 1:4 and 5 carefully: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spiritsbefore his throne,and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth(NIV). You see the difference?The separation between “the one who was, is and is to come” and Christ can be clearly seen.The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is God not Jesus Christ. Recommended: http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=150
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Mansoor_ali Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 581	Posted: 05 May 2011 at 10:14am
	*Originally posted by Mansoor_ali* To Douggg John 11:25(NIV) Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” I agree with this statement.He who believes in Jesus will live, by live it means you go to heaven, if you dont believe in Jesus you will die, by die it means going to hell. This applies to every prophet.Again Christ is not divine according to John 11:25. *Originally posted by Douggg* Seems to me that you are only believing part of that verse. Do you believe that Jesus is the resurrection as he said? Islam says that Allah is the resurrection. *Originally posted by islamispeace* Al-Ba'ith means "The Resurrector", not "The Resurrection". The Quran also says of Allah: "Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him." (112:1-4) None of this can apply to a mere mortal like Jesus (pbuh). Good point by "islamispeace". Allah is called "The Resurrecter" in the Surah 22 verse 7.But no where in the entire Quran Allah is referred as "The Resurrection".And as far as my knowledge is concerned no where in the entire Bible Jesus said "I am the Resurrecter" but Jesus said in the John 11 verse "I am the resurrection" So there is a clear difference. But my question to Douggg:Why Jesus said "I am the resurrection"?Is he talking about his authority over death?Because we know Jesus raised Lazarus from a death.
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Douggg Guest Group Joined: 12 February 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 469	Posted: 07 May 2011 at 12:28pm
	*Originally posted by honeto* *Originally posted by Douggg* *Originally posted by Mansoor_ali* I think you didnot read NIV and NASB carefully.Let me quote Revelation 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”(NIV) I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."(NASB) Now i am also quoting RSV: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. "I am the Alpha and the Omega" this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus. Hi Mansoor, the Lord Jesus is the Lord God. In all of those translations is this phrase: "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty". The phrase "who is to come" identifies the Lord God as Lord Jesus who will be returning to his world. That's why I included from the end of Revelation, 22:20. " Even so, come, Lord Jesus." ²⁰He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Doug, what you said above has problems: 1) Nowhere it says and no one was expecting God to come on earth. God existed and is and always is near to us to even know what is in our hearts. Hi Hasan, I agree that no-one was expecting God to enter this world as Jesus. The Jews were expecting a messiah along the lines of king David. In their understanding the main function of the messiah was to free them from control by the gentiles. That's why when Jesus was crucified and buried, the disciples were despondent thinking all was lost. Satan, although he knew that Jesus was the Son of God, thought he had victory by preventing the Kingdom of God from being established on this earth by killing the King. So, there is no evidence that anyone was expecting God to come. The Messiah is never meant to be God. Not in their minds he wasn't expected to be God. But God came to be the messiah - save us from our sins savior. ex2) Anyone born through a woman certainly is not God. No-one coming forth from a man is God. One coming forth from God has to be God. Jesus said he came forth from the Father. Jesus said before Abraham was, I am. 3) Anyone who is born, was nursed, cleaned, protected, and raised by a mother cannot be God. Now you are making rules for God to obey? 4) The same Bible you quote has proved your claim as false when it states that Jesus has himself said: " I am going to my God and your God" or " my Father is Greater than I" How do you dodge those powerful facts? It's never too late to correct one's self as long as you do it berfore you are unable to do so! Man cannot fathom the unmeasurable love that God has for us. God became one of us, so that we can eternally relate to Him. Jesus calls himself the Son of Man all through the bible, yet His Father was not a man by his own account. Doug L. Edited by Douggg - 07 May 2011 at 1:46pm
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Douggg Guest Group Joined: 12 February 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 469	Posted: 07 May 2011 at 1:09pm
	*Originally posted by Mansoor_ali* To Douggg Hi Mansoor, the Lord Jesus is the Lord God. In all of those translations is this phrase: "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty". The phrase "who is to come" identifies the Lord God as Lord Jesus who will be returning to his world. That's why I included from the end of Revelation, 22:20. " Even so, come, Lord Jesus." ²⁰He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Read Revelation 1:4 and 5 carefully: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spiritsbefore his throne,and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth(NIV). You see the difference?The separation between “the one who was, is and is to come” and Christ can be clearly seen.The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is God not Jesus Christ. Recommended: http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=150 Hi Mansoor, "...and from Jesus Christ" is verifying that he is the Almighty who is, who was, and who is to come. Is Mohamed's god Allah "is to come"? Jesus is coming. Why didn't the disciples call Jesus or refer to Jesus as Jesus "Christ" during his ministry years? Except here, Matt 16:13-17. Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. In the ot, God says He is the only Savior. Yet, why did Jesus make such a point of referring to himself as the Son of Man, even when he returns to this earth in great glory? It is because God became one of us, the Son of Man, that we may know Him forever, and in order to have that fellowship we have to be cleaned up washed from our sins and recreated, which Christians are looking forward to completion on the day of our resurrection, or if we are alive at the time, being changed in the twinkling of an eye. For we cannot stand before him in our sins. Muslims reject God's offer and think that 50% clean is good enough. Who said in the gospels, "if thou be the Son of God..."? Mohamed also says that God has no Sons.....so guess where that message came from? Doug L. Edited by Douggg - 07 May 2011 at 1:45pm
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Mansoor_ali Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 581	Posted: 08 May 2011 at 2:00am
	To Douggg Your god Allah has 99 names. All equal. Is your god's name "the Truth"? Yes. Jesus with his own mouth said I am the Truth....John 14:6 Response by brother Ali Ataie: The Christian may inform you that Jesus claimed to be "the truth," or al-Haqq in Arabic, which is one of the Divine attributes of God mentioned in the Qur’an. "He is using a divine attribute to refer to himself, an attribute found in your scripture," he will say. Inform him that the words Ra’uf and Rahim, mean Kind and Merciful respectively, are also attributed to God in the Qur’an. However, Allah reveals in Surah Tawbah, verse 128: "Now hath come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers he is most kind and merciful" (Qur’an 9:128). The words Allah used to describe the character of his Beloved are Ra’uf and Rahim, two of the divine attributes! Does this make Muhammad God? Certainly not. He simply embodies many of the sacred attributes at a much smaller, human level. By the same token, we can say that Muhammad is Great, Noble, Generous, and Truth He is not, however, "The Creator," or "The Giver of Life and Death." These attributes are solely for God and nowhere does Jesus ever claim to be these things.(Source)
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