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Mansoor_ali
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 01 October 2008 at 2:59pm

 Response to PattyaMainer

 PattyaMainer said:

 ...But the New Testament also has verses which clearly show Christ and the Father to be equals. For example, there is John 10:30: "I and the Father are one."

 My Response:
 John 10:30 does not prove any divinity of Christ.Here is response by your own christian brothers.

 PattyaMainer said:
 Or, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9)

 My Response:
 Here is response by brother Shabir Ally regarding John 14:9

 In John 14:9 Jesus (peace be upon him) is quoted as saying: “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.”  This is often misunderstood to mean that Jesus is God.  But Jesus clearly said that no one has seen God at any time (John 5:37).  Those who say that Jesus is God, are disagreeing with what Jesus himself said.  If Jesus was God why would he say to the people looking at him that they never saw God?  And why would the author of the 1st Letter of John in the Bible, writing some seventy years after Jesus was taken up, say that no one had ever seen God (1John 4:12) although he knew that multitudes had already seen Jesus?  The meaning of John 14:9 is not that Jesus is God, but that by knowing Jesus, one gets to know God, since Jesus teaches about God.  This meaning is confirmed by John 1:18 where the writer says that no one had ever seen God, but Jesus had made God known to the people.  In the 17th Chapter of the same Gospel, Jesus declared that eternal life means knowing that the Father whom Jesus worshipped is the only true God and that Jesus is the Messiah who was sent by God. (Is Jesus God? The Bible Says No!)

 
PattyaMainer said:
 Or, "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15).

 My Response:
 It simply proves that Jesus was GIVEN power and authority,he did not own it.

 As we all know, God is all-powerful and is independent, he needs no help from anybody. However so this is not the case with Jesus, unlike God, Jesus needs help from God, unlike God, Jesus does not own any power or
any authority, rather it is given to him from God.


Jhn 13:3  Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

John 17:6-8: 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that ALL THINGS whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me

So as we can see, Jesus GIVEN everything he had! This all included miracle, doctrine etc. Basically Jesus did not do anything of his own, he never performed a miracle by his own power, he was given the miracle. He never taught anything of his own, rather he was taught by God and spoke what God told him to speak.

Jhn 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me

Jhn 12:49  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Jhn 8:26  I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

Jhn 14:24  He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

So everything Jesus had was from God, from the Gospel to his miracles. God needs no one to give him power, God needs no one to tell him what to do, therefore Jesus is not God.

 PattyaMainer said:
 Or, "The Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

 My Response:
 Already addressed here.

 PattyaMainer said:
 Or, "[Jesus], though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Phil. 2:6).

 My Response:
 Same click here and see the response.

 PattyaMainer said:

  These seem to contradict the other verses.

  How do we make sense of all this? By keeping in mind that Jesus is both God and man. Some verses, such as these last five, refer exclusively to his Godhead. Others refer to his humanity. So far as he is God, Jesus is equal to the Father. Christ’s human nature, though, is created and is therefore inferior to the Father. But to focus on this aspect of Christ to the exclusion of his divine nature is a gross misunderstanding of who and what the Bible says Jesus Christ is.

 My Response:

 Here is my CHALLENGE to you:
 Can you bring me the verse where Jesus claims to have dual natures i.e. fully man and fully God?

 PattyaMainer said:

 Other verses cited by the Witnesses, such as Matthew 3:17, show merely that Christ is God’s Son, not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God).

 My Response:

 Matthew 3 (King James Version)

17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

THE MEANING OF THE SON OF GOD

 Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son%5Fof%5FGod

 In the Tanakh

In the Tanakh, the phrase "sons of god" has multiple meanings:

  • The Hebrew phrase Benei Elohim, often translated as "The Sons of God", describes angels, demigods or immensely powerful human beings. See Genesis 6:2-4. Many Bible scholars believe that this is a reference to pre-Biblical near-eastern mythology.
  • It is used to denote a human judge or ruler (Ps. lxxxii. 6, "children of the Most High"; in many passages "gods" and "judges" seem to be equations); and to the real or ideal king over Israel (II Sam. vii. 14, with reference to David and his dynasty; comp. Ps. lxxxix. 27, 28).
  • The phrases "sons of God" and "children of God" are applied to Israel as a people (comp. Ex. iv. 22 and Hos. xi. 1), the Jewish people, and also to all members of the human race.

In the Tanakh the term does not connote any form of physical descent from, or essential unity with, God. The Hebrew idiom conveys an expression of godlikeness (see Godliness).

In Judaism the term "son of God" is rarely used in the sense of "messiah."

Taken from http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=son+of+God

 son of God

One entry found for son of God.

<> < name="hdwd" value="son of God" ="">< name="listword" value="son of God" ="">< name="book" value="Dictionary" ="">

Main Entry: son of God
1 often capitalized S : a superhuman or divine being (as an angel)
2 capitalized S : MESSIAH 1
3 : a person established in the love of God by divine promise

So note, the term son of God does not mean God. As you can see, Jews had already been using this term, and they never took it to mean God now did they?


Secondly, Jesus was sent to these very same Jews, so hence when Jesus called himself the son of God, he was defintly referring to the same definition the Jews had, which is that the son of God does not mean God, and that it just means someone special or someone in power.



 

 


 



 

 



 
 
 

 
 

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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 25 October 2008 at 7:42am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Robin, your "bible" quotes are from JW scripts going back only 100-150 years.  Hardly worth noting.  Thanks, but I'll stay with the longstanding, scholarly, historically correct bibles from the days shortly after Our Lord walked this earth. 
 

Is Christ God?



1. "Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to him." Given in support of this position are these verses: "And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased’" (Matt. 3:17). "I proceeded and came forth from God" (John 8:42). "If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17). "The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God" (1 Cor. 11:3). "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one" (1 Cor. 15:28).

At first glance these citations seem imposing. It does seem that Christ is inferior to God the Father in some sense. But the New Testament also has verses which clearly show Christ and the Father to be equals. For example, there is John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." Or, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9). Or, "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15). Or, "The Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18). Or, "[Jesus], though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Phil. 2:6). These seem to contradict the other verses.

How do we make sense of all this? By keeping in mind that Jesus is both God and man. Some verses, such as these last five, refer exclusively to his Godhead. Others refer to his humanity. So far as he is God, Jesus is equal to the Father. Christ’s human nature, though, is created and is therefore inferior to the Father. But to focus on this aspect of Christ to the exclusion of his divine nature is a gross misunderstanding of who and what the Bible says Jesus Christ is. Other verses cited by the Witnesses, such as Matthew 3:17, show merely that Christ is God’s Son, not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God).

http://www.catholic.com/library/distinctive_beliefs_of_jehovahs.asp
 
Have a good day,
Patty
 

“ONE” thing, as in harmony or unity, or person as one being?

 

John 10:30 . . .I and the Father are one.”

 

Example of the followers of Jesus being “one” with him and the God.

 

John 17:20-26 . . .“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me. 24 Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you; but I have come to know you, and these have come to know that you sent me forth. 26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”

 

1 John 1:3    that which we have seen and heard we are reporting also to YOU, that YOU too may be having a sharing with us. Furthermore, this sharing of ours is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

 

1 John 3:24   Moreover, he who observes his commandments remains in union with him, and he in union with such one; and by this we gain the knowledge that he is remaining in union with us, owing to the spirit which he gave us.

 

 

In the above we see that “one” refers to a unity and not as suggested by some as one person as not only are Jesus and Jehovah said to be “one” but also Jesus disciples are INCLUDED in that “one” as John 17:20 say “those putting faith in me” so the oneness spoken of included all Jesus faithful followers and not just him and his Father.

 

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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 28 October 2008 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Robin, your "bible" quotes are from JW scripts going back only 100-150 years.  Hardly worth noting.  Thanks, but I'll stay with the longstanding, scholarly, historically correct bibles from the days shortly after Our Lord walked this earth. 
 

Is Christ God?



1. "Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to him." Given in support of this position are these verses: "And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased’" (Matt. 3:17). "I proceeded and came forth from God" (John 8:42). "If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17). "The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God" (1 Cor. 11:3). "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one" (1 Cor. 15:28).

At first glance these citations seem imposing. It does seem that Christ is inferior to God the Father in some sense. But the New Testament also has verses which clearly show Christ and the Father to be equals. For example, there is John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." Or, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9). Or, "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15). Or, "The Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18). Or, "[Jesus], though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Phil. 2:6). These seem to contradict the other verses.

How do we make sense of all this? By keeping in mind that Jesus is both God and man. Some verses, such as these last five, refer exclusively to his Godhead. Others refer to his humanity. So far as he is God, Jesus is equal to the Father. Christ’s human nature, though, is created and is therefore inferior to the Father. But to focus on this aspect of Christ to the exclusion of his divine nature is a gross misunderstanding of who and what the Bible says Jesus Christ is. Other verses cited by the Witnesses, such as Matthew 3:17, show merely that Christ is God’s Son, not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God).

http://www.catholic.com/library/distinctive_beliefs_of_jehovahs.asp
 
Have a good day,
Patty
 
Patty,
your explaination of Christian doctrine is a classical example of confused and opposite statments.
 
At first you do admit Christ being inferior to God (you call the Father) when you say and quote, "for the Father is greater than I (John 14:28)."
In a classic flip at the end you say,"not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God). "
A Christian phenomenon only themselves can understand and believe, and a Christian dilema only we Muslims can see.
 
I hope you see what I mean, and not take it as an offence. You cannot be equal, if you are inferior or someone is greater than you!
 
See the thing is that one cannot go to far with "God having a son" before we get tangled into other objections beside the one above.
This again is for understanding and no offence is meant:
cow is born to cow,  duck is born to duck, cat is born to  cat, if we assume for a second (God to have an off spring) God is born to God!
So, yes if cat and (son) cat is same, then God and son God is same.
 
I would like to hear what yuo have to say.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 28 October 2008 at 5:30pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote thomasd Replybullet Posted: 20 November 2008 at 6:23pm
hey everyone, I know I dropped out of this discussion  a while back, but I finally managed to find what are likely the roots of the belief in the trinity, and its definitely from the Jewish religion, not pagan or greek as some in this thread have claimed.

this page: http://www.layevangelism.com/qreference/chapter10e.htm

has a lot of discussion and references. (don't mind the atrocious color scheme!)
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 21 November 2008 at 6:17am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Robin, your "bible" quotes are from JW scripts going back only 100-150 years.  Hardly worth noting.  Thanks, but I'll stay with the longstanding, scholarly, historically correct bibles from the days shortly after Our Lord walked this earth. 
 

Is Christ God?



1. "Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to him." Given in support of this position are these verses: "And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased’" (Matt. 3:17). "I proceeded and came forth from God" (John 8:42). "If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17). "The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God" (1 Cor. 11:3). "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one" (1 Cor. 15:28).

At first glance these citations seem imposing. It does seem that Christ is inferior to God the Father in some sense. But the New Testament also has verses which clearly show Christ and the Father to be equals. For example, there is John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." Or, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9). Or, "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15). Or, "The Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18). Or, "[Jesus], though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Phil. 2:6). These seem to contradict the other verses.

How do we make sense of all this? By keeping in mind that Jesus is both God and man. Some verses, such as these last five, refer exclusively to his Godhead. Others refer to his humanity. So far as he is God, Jesus is equal to the Father. Christ’s human nature, though, is created and is therefore inferior to the Father. But to focus on this aspect of Christ to the exclusion of his divine nature is a gross misunderstanding of who and what the Bible says Jesus Christ is. Other verses cited by the Witnesses, such as Matthew 3:17, show merely that Christ is God’s Son, not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God).

http://www.catholic.com/library/distinctive_beliefs_of_jehovahs.asp
 
Have a good day,
Patty
 
Patty,
your explaination of Christian doctrine is a classical example of confused and opposite statments.
 
At first you do admit Christ being inferior to God (you call the Father) when you say and quote, "for the Father is greater than I (John 14:28)."
In a classic flip at the end you say,"not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God). "
A Christian phenomenon only themselves can understand and believe, and a Christian dilema only we Muslims can see.
 
I hope you see what I mean, and not take it as an offence. You cannot be equal, if you are inferior or someone is greater than you!
 
See the thing is that one cannot go to far with "God having a son" before we get tangled into other objections beside the one above.
This again is for understanding and no offence is meant:
cow is born to cow,  duck is born to duck, cat is born to  cat, if we assume for a second (God to have an off spring) God is born to God!
So, yes if cat and (son) cat is same, then God and son God is same.
 
I would like to hear what yuo have to say.
Hasan
 
Hello Hasan,
 
I do not take offence from you, not ever. I must say I am somewhat puzzled as to why you care what I believe or what I have to say......since you obviously disagree so heartily with my beliefs. lolol
 
That being said, I will try again to explain my Catholic Christian point of view.
 
You need to read this very carefully:
 
"So far as he is God, Jesus is equal to the Father. Christ’s human nature, though, is created and is therefore inferior to the Father."
 
Okay, so what does this mean?  It refers to God the Father sending Jesus as His son to earth in human form, and it is his human form that is inferior to God the father.  Not Jesus Christ Himself, but the human form he took on while he ministered to the multitudes while he was on earth for some 33 years. 
 
Hasan, it takes a LOT of study of the Scriptures and the Holy Gospels to find the truth....to finally see it and embrace it.  I am so inept at trying to show this to you.  But more than anything it takes great faith to know that our precious God loves us and knows we are struggling to do His will in our lives.  He will help us,  if we allow him, to see the Truth.  I have great faith, if nothing else, that He loves even me (and I know I am not worthy of it because I have sinned greatly in my life).  What I love about God is that, unlike people, He not only forgives our sins...he also forgets them. 
 
I hope this explains that one aspect of the Holy Trinity.  We have a little hymn we sing and I love the one line which goes,
 
"praise the Holy Trinity, UNIDIVIDED UNITY,......
 
Peace to you, Hasan,
Patty
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 22 November 2008 at 6:50pm
Patty,
thanks for your effort to clear things up. I have very basic funtamental difference of view on trinity.
I do not believe Christ himself taught Trinity. As it is absent from any previous prophets' teachings and beliefs. I have asked this question to present form of those who Jesus is said to be, a jew. All previous scriptures lack this very important point or part about God claimed by Christians?
God does not change in Godhead. God was and is One,  and that's what seams to be universal teachings of all the previous scriptures. This doctrine in my humble opinion if, can only be derived from NT which by the way due to its not so authentic history is I am reluctant to rely upon. It proves to be a new doctrine in terms of describing God, thus I completely disagree with it.
 
In your description above: Jesus Christ the man you say is inferior to God. Isn't it the human form that is given the name Jesus Chirst to begin with. In other words you are saying that out of three parts of God in Godhead, one is called God, the other Jesus Christ, and the third, the Holy Ghost?
 
Also, are you saying that Jesus Christ was not God when he was walking upon this earth according to your belief? I want to get this clear from you Patty before I procede. 
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 22 November 2008 at 6:54pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 22 November 2008 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by honeto

Patty,
thanks for your effort to clear things up. I have very basic funtamental difference of view on trinity.
I do not believe Christ himself taught Trinity. As it is absent from any previous prophets' teachings and beliefs. I have asked this question to present form of those who Jesus is said to be, a jew. All previous scriptures lack this very important point or part about God claimed by Christians?
God does not change in Godhead. God was and is One,  and that's what seams to be universal teachings of all the previous scriptures. This doctrine in my humble opinion if, can only be derived from NT which by the way due to its not so authentic history is I am reluctant to rely upon. It proves to be a new doctrine in terms of describing God, thus I completely disagree with it.
 
In your description above: Jesus Christ the man you say is inferior to God. Isn't it the human form that is given the name Jesus Chirst to begin with. In other words you are saying that out of three parts of God in Godhead, one is called God, the other Jesus Christ, and the third, the Holy Ghost?
 
Also, are you saying that Jesus Christ was not God when he was walking upon this earth according to your belief? I want to get this clear from you Patty before I procede. 
 
Hasan
 
My Dear Hasan,
 
I will answer you tomorrow as best I can.  It is now midnight here in Maine, and I cannot hold my eyes open any longer.  I just don't want you to think I am avoiding the question.  Okay?  See you tomorrow.
 
God bless,
Patty
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 23 November 2008 at 10:00am
Originally posted by honeto

Patty,
I have very basic funtamental difference of view on trinity.
I do not believe Christ himself taught Trinity. As it is absent from any previous prophets' teachings and beliefs. I have asked this question to present form of those who Jesus is said to be, a jew. All previous scriptures lack this very important point or part about God claimed by Christians?
God does not change in Godhead. God was and is One,  and that's what seams to be universal teachings of all the previous scriptures. This doctrine in my humble opinion if, can only be derived from NT which by the way due to its not so authentic history is I am reluctant to rely upon. It proves to be a new doctrine in terms of describing God, thus I completely disagree with it.
 
Hasan
 
I know we differ in many thinks Hasan, but you are dead right in the above and you say just as The bible teaches.  The Bible disagrees with it as well!
 
Deuteronomy 6:4
"Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
 
Jesus never taught anything than what is above; "God is one"!


Edited by robin - 23 November 2008 at 10:02am
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