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PattyaMainer
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2008 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by honeto

Patty,
I am still waiting your response to Jesus' admittance of God (Father) being greater than him while you  believe the three are equal in power.
Hasan
 
Sorry for the delay, honeto.  I don't always have the ability to access this site.  Here is my answer for which you have been waiting:
 
JOH 10:24 The Jews therefore gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
JOH 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these bear witness of Me.
JOH 10:26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep.
JOH 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
JOH 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.
JOH 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
JOH 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

I hope this answers your question somewhat.  Have a beautiful day!

God's Peace,

Patty
 
 
 
 


Edited by PattyaMainer - 16 September 2008 at 2:12pm
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Quote Nazarene Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2008 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by robin

 i guess there's a little pagen in all of us right!! stop the killing.[/QUOTE]
 
NO.   One is for God and not pagan or a little bit pagan and totaly rejected by God!
[/QUOTE] are blood sacrifices a polution of demonic doctrines or not? i don't understand your reply above

Edited by Nazarene - 16 September 2008 at 3:42pm
love for all conquers all
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 9:41am
Originally posted by Nazarene

Originally posted by robin

 i guess there's a little pagen in all of us right!! stop the killing.
 
NO.   One is for God and not pagan or a little bit pagan and totaly rejected by God!
[/QUOTE] are blood sacrifices a polution of demonic doctrines or not? i don't understand your reply above [/QUOTE]
 
Today there is no need for blood sacrifices.
 
Satan & his Demons have always copied true religion, as the cannot produce anything new or clean!
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 17 September 2008 at 9:49am
Originally posted by minuteman

 
 robin, you have again a long winding lecture about Jesus is God or not. In the end you have said:
 
 

So we can ask again, who is Jesus talking about, as it cannot be himself"  He is talking about Almighty God, thus Jesus cannot be Almighty God!

 Do we understand that Jesus is not God or Jesus is not Almighty God. What is the opinion (short reply) of the YW's (Ya Huwa's witnesses). As you know, there is only one God. We cannot have an Almighty God and a less mighty God.

John Ch. 1:1-2 talks of Jesus in his heavenly postion next the God Almighty Jehovah and he is called:-
 
John 1:1-2
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
 
A subordinate divine (heavenly) being next to the Almighty God!
 
 
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2008 at 5:10am
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by minuteman

 
 robin, you have again a long winding lecture about Jesus is God or not. In the end you have said:
 
 

So we can ask again, who is Jesus talking about, as it cannot be himself"  He is talking about Almighty God, thus Jesus cannot be Almighty God!

 Do we understand that Jesus is not God or Jesus is not Almighty God. What is the opinion (short reply) of the YW's (Ya Huwa's witnesses). As you know, there is only one God. We cannot have an Almighty God and a less mighty God.

John Ch. 1:1-2 talks of Jesus in his heavenly postion next the God Almighty Jehovah and he is called:-
 
John 1:1-2
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
 
A subordinate divine (heavenly) being next to the Almighty God!
 
"A" God, Robin?????  Absolutely incorrect in all Bibles, except perhaps whatever you're reading from!!
 
Here is what the true Bibles say:
 
 

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

American King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

American Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Bible in Basic English
From the first he was the Word, and the Word was in relation with God and was God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Darby Bible Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Revised Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Webster's Bible Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Weymouth New Testament
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

World English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

Geneva Study Bible

In {1} the {a} beginning {b} was {c} the Word, and the Word was {d} with God, and the {e} Word was God.

(1) The Son of God is of one and the selfsame eternity or everlastingness, and of one and the selfsame essence or nature with the Father.

(a) From the beginning, as the evangelist says in 1Jo 1:1; it is as though he said that the Word did not begin to have his being when God began to make all that was made: for the Word was even then when all things that were made began to be made, and therefore he was before the beginning of all things.

(b) Had his being.

(c) This word the points out to us a peculiar and choice thing above all others, and puts a difference between this Word, which is the Son of God, and the laws of God, which are also called the word of God.

(d) This word with points out that there is a distinction of persons here.

(e) This word Word is the first in order in the sentence, and is the subject of the sentence, and this word God is the latter in order, and is the predicate of the sentence.

People's New Testament

1:1-3 The Beginning of Christ's Ministry

SUMMARY OF JOHN 1:

The Word Made Flesh. The Witness of John. John's Disciples Pointed to Christ. The Lord Calls His First Disciples. An Israelite Indeed.

In the beginning was the Word, etc. The first fourteen verses are introductory. In order to set at rest all controversy the Divine nature of Jesus, John glances, in the first three verses, back to the beginning, recorded in Genesis, and affirms: (1) That he who was afterwards manifest as the Christ existed before creation began; (2) that he was present with God; (3) that he was divine; (4) that he was the Word; (5) that by or through him were all things made that were made (Joh 1:3). The first chapter of Genesis helps us to understand its meaning. God said, Let there be light (Ge 1:3), Let there be a firmament (Ge 1:6), Let the earth bring forth (Ge 1:11), etc. and it was done. God exhibits his creative power through the Word, and manifests his will through the Word. There are mysteries belonging to the divine nature and to the relation between the Son and the Father that we have to wait for eternity to solve. They are too deep for human solution, but this is clear: that God creates and speaks to man through the Word. As we clothe our thoughts in words, so God reveals his will by the Word, and when the Word is clothed in flesh, as the Teacher of men, we recognize it as Jesus Christ.

Patty

 

 
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 26 September 2008 at 8:57am

 Response to PattyaMainer

 Others might disagree with you PattyaMainer regarding John 1:1

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=61(Part 1)

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=247(Part 2)

 


 
 
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 26 September 2008 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by robin

[QUOTE=minuteman] 
 robin, you have again a long winding lecture about Jesus is God or not. In the end you have said:
 
 

So we can ask again, who is Jesus talking about, as it cannot be himself"  He is talking about Almighty God, thus Jesus cannot be Almighty God!

 Do we understand that Jesus is not God or Jesus is not Almighty God. What is the opinion (short reply) of the YW's (Ya Huwa's witnesses). As you know, there is only one God. We cannot have an Almighty God and a less mighty God.

John Ch. 1:1-2 talks of Jesus in his heavenly postion next the God Almighty Jehovah and he is called:-
 
John 1:1-2
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
 
A subordinate divine (heavenly) being next to the Almighty God!
 
"A" God, Robin?????  Absolutely incorrect in all Bibles, except perhaps whatever you're reading from!!
 
Here is what the true Bibles say:
 
 [Quote]
 
 
Yes "a god" NOT "The God" or The Almighty!
 

The following is a list of variant translations of John 1:1:

Interlineary Word for Word English Translation-Emphatic Diaglott, "In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word."

Edward Harwood, H KAINH DIAQHKH. The New Testament, collated with the most approved manuscripts; with select notes in English, critical and explanatory, and references to those authors who have best illustrated the sacred writings. To which are added, a Catalogue of the principal Editions of the Greek Testament; and a List of the most esteemed Commentators and critics. London, 1776, 2 vols; 2nd ed. 1784, 2 vols. 1768, "and was himself a divine person"

Newcome, 1808, "and the word was a god"

Crellius,as quoted in The New Testament in an Improved Version "the Word was God's"

La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel,1928: "and the Word was a divine being."

John Samuel Thompson, The Montessoran; or The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists, Baltimore; published by the translator, 1829, "the Logos was a god

Goodspeed's An American Translation, 1939, "the Word was divine

Revised Version-Improved and Corrected, "the word was a god."

Prof. Felix Just, S.J. - Loyola Marymount University, "and god[-ly/-like] was the Word."

The Four Gospels—A New Translation, by Professor Charles Cutler Torrey, Second Edition, 1947, "the Word was god

New English Bible, 1961, "what God was,the Word was"

Moffatt's The Bible, 1972, "the Logos was divine"

International English Bible-Extreme New Testament, 2001, "the Word was God*[ftn. or Deity, Divine, which is a better translation, because the Greek definite article is not present before this Greek word]

Reijnier Rooleeuw, M.D. -The New Testament of Our Lord Jesus Christ, translated from the Greek, 1694, "and the Word was a god"

Simple English Bible, "and the Message was Deity"

Hermann Heinfetter, A Literal Translation of the New Testament,1863, [A]s a god the Command was"

Abner Kneeland-The New Testament in Greek and English, 1822, "The Word was a God" Robert Young, LL.D. (Concise Commentary on the Holy Bible [Grand Rapids: Baker, n.d.], 54). 1885, "[A]nd a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word"

Belsham N.T. 1809 "the Word was a god"

Leicester Ambrose, The Final Theology, Volume 1, New York, New York; M.B. Sawyer and Company, 1879, "And the logos was a god"

Charles A.L. Totten, The Gospel of History, 1900, "the Word was Deistic [=The Word was Godly]

J.N. Jannaris, Zeitschrift fur die Newtestameutlich Wissencraft, (German periodical) 1901, [A]nd was a god"

International Bible Translators N.T. 1981 "In the beginning there was the Message. The Message was with God. The Message was deity."

Samuel Clarke, M.A., D.D., rector of St. James, Westminster, A Paraphrase on the Gospel of John, London "[A] Divine Person."

Joseph Priestley, LL.D., F.R.S. (in A Familiar Illustration of Certain Passages of Scripture Relating to The Power of Man to do the Will of God, Original Sin, Election and Reprobation, The Divinity of Christ; And, Atonement for Sin by the Death of Christ [Philadelphia: Thomas Dobson, 1794], 37). "a God"

Lant Carpenter, LL.D (in Unitarianism in the Gospels [London: C. Stower, 1809], 156). "a God"

Andrews Norton, D.D. (in A Statement of Reasons For Not Believing the Doctrines of Trinitarians [Cambridge: Brown, Shattuck, and Company, 1833], 74). "a god"

Paul Wernle, Professor Extraordinary of Modern Church History at the University of Basil (in The Beginnings of Christianity, vol. 1, The Rise of Religion [1903], 16). "a God" "At the beginning of Creation, there dwelt with God a mighty spirit, the Marshal, who produced all things in their order."

21st Century NT Free "and the [Marshal] [Word] was a god." 21st Century Literal

George William Horner, The Coptic Version of the New Testament, 1911, [A]nd (a) God was the word"

Ernest Findlay Scott, The Literature of the New Testament, New York, Columbia University Press, 1932, "[A]nd the Word was of divine nature"

James L. Tomanec, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958, [T]he Word was a God"

Philip Harner, JBL, Vol. 92, 1974, "The Word had the same nature as God"

Maximilian Zerwich S.J./Mary Grosvenor, 1974, "The Word was divine"

Siegfried Schulz, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1975, "And a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word"

Translator's NT, 1973, "The Word was with God and shared his nature ...with footnote, "There is a distinction in the Greek here between 'with God' and 'God.' In the forst instance, the article is used and this makes the reference specific. In the second instance there is not article, and it is difficult to believe that the omission is not significant. In effect it gives an adjectival quality to the second use of Theos (God) so that the phrae means 'The Word was divine'."

William Barclay's The New Testament, 1976, "the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God"

Johannes Schneider, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1978, "and godlike sort was the Logos

Schonfield's The Original New Testament, 1985, "the Word was divine

Revised English Bible, 1989, "what God was, the Word was

Scholar's Version-The Five Gospels, 1993, "The Divine word and wisdom was there with God, and it was what God was

J. Madsen, New Testament A Rendering , 1994, "the Word was a divine Being"

Jurgen Becker, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1979, "a God/god was the Logos/logos"

Curt Stage, The New Testament, 1907, "The Word/word was itself a divine Being/being."

Bohmer, 1910, "It was strongly linked to God, yes itself divine Being/being"

Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme, 1919, "God of Kind/kind was the Word/word"

Baumgarten et al, 1920, "God (of Kind/kind) was the Logos/logos"

Holzmann, 1926, "ein Gott war der Gedanke" [a God/god was the Thought/thought]

Friedriche Rittelmeyer, 1938, "itself a God/god was the Word/word"

Lyder Brun (Norw. professor of NT theology), 1945, "the Word was of divine kind"

Fredrich Pfaefflin, The New Testament, 1949, "was of divine Kind/kind"

Albrecht, 1957, "godlike Being/being had the Word/word"

Smit, 1960, "the word of the world was a divine being"

Menge, 1961, "God(=godlike Being/being) was the Word/word"

Haenchen, 1980, "God (of Kind/kind) was the Logos/logos" [as mentioned in William Loader's The Christology of the Fourth Gospel, p. 155 cf. p.260]

Die Bibel in heutigem Deutsch, 1982, "He was with God and in all like God"

Haenchen (tr. By R. Funk), 1984, "divine (of the category divinity)was the Logos"

Johannes Schulz, 1987, "a God/god (or: God/god of Kind/kind) was the Word/word." [As mentioned in William Loader's The Christology of the Fourth Gospel, p. 155 cf. p.260]

William Temple, Archbishop of York, Readings in St. John's Gospel, London, Macmillan & Co.,1933, "And the Word was divine."

John Crellius, Latin form of German, The 2 Books of John Crellius Fancus, Touching One God the Father, 1631, "The Word of Speech was a God"

Greek Orthodox /Arabic Calendar, incorporating portions of the 4 Gospels, Greek Orthodox Patriarchy or Beirut, May, 1983, "the word was with Allah[God] and the word was a god"

Ervin Edward Stringfellow (Prof. of NT Language and Literature/Drake University, 1943, "And the Word was Divine"

Robert Harvey, D.D., Professor of New Testament Language and Literature, Westminster College, Cambridge, in The Historic Jesus in the New Testament, London, Student Movement Christian Press1931 "and the Logos was divine (a divine being)"

Jesuit John L. McKenzie, 1965, wrote in his Dictionary of the Bible: "Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated . . . 'the word was a divine being.'

Dymond, E.C. New Testament, 1962 (original manuscript) "In the beginning was the creative purpose of God. It was with God and was fully expressive of God [just as wisdom was with God before creation]."

Buzzard/Hunting "In the beginning of God’s creative effort, even before he created the heavenly bodies and the earth, the mental power to reason logically already existed, and the Wisdom produced by it was known only to God, for the Wisdom was God’s Wisdom" (Pro. 8:22-30)

Barclay, W. The Daily Study Bible- The Gospel of John vol.1 "III. [Revised Edition ISBN 0-664-21304-9: Finally John says that "The Word was God". There is no doubt that this is a difficult saying for us to understand, and it is difficult because greek, in which John wrote, had a different way of saying things from the way in which english speaks. When the greek uses a noun it almost always uses the definite article with it. The greek for God is ‘theos’, and the definite article is ‘ho’. When greek speaks about God it does not simply say ‘theos’; it says ‘ho theos’. Now, when greek does not use the definite article with a noun that noun becomes much more like an adjective; it describes the character, the quality of the person. John did not say that the Word was ‘ho theos’; that would have been to say that the Word was identical with God; he says that the Word was ‘theos’- without the definite article- which means that the Word was, as we might say, of the very same character and quality and essence and being as God. When John said ‘The Word was God’ he was not saying that Jesus is identical with God, he was saying that Jesus is so perfectly the same as God in mind, in heart, in being that in Jesus we perfectly see what God is like"



Edited by robin - 26 September 2008 at 2:32pm
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2008 at 3:58pm
Robin, your "bible" quotes are from JW scripts going back only 100-150 years.  Hardly worth noting.  Thanks, but I'll stay with the longstanding, scholarly, historically correct bibles from the days shortly after Our Lord walked this earth. 
 

Is Christ God?



1. "Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to him." Given in support of this position are these verses: "And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased’" (Matt. 3:17). "I proceeded and came forth from God" (John 8:42). "If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17). "The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God" (1 Cor. 11:3). "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one" (1 Cor. 15:28).

At first glance these citations seem imposing. It does seem that Christ is inferior to God the Father in some sense. But the New Testament also has verses which clearly show Christ and the Father to be equals. For example, there is John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." Or, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9). Or, "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15). Or, "The Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18). Or, "[Jesus], though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Phil. 2:6). These seem to contradict the other verses.

How do we make sense of all this? By keeping in mind that Jesus is both God and man. Some verses, such as these last five, refer exclusively to his Godhead. Others refer to his humanity. So far as he is God, Jesus is equal to the Father. Christ’s human nature, though, is created and is therefore inferior to the Father. But to focus on this aspect of Christ to the exclusion of his divine nature is a gross misunderstanding of who and what the Bible says Jesus Christ is. Other verses cited by the Witnesses, such as Matthew 3:17, show merely that Christ is God’s Son, not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God).

http://www.catholic.com/library/distinctive_beliefs_of_jehovahs.asp
 
Have a good day,
Patty
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