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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2008 at 9:45am
 
 In the post of robin above, robin has admitted that trinity has nothing to do with the early christians teaching. It rather evolved out during 300 or 400 years. So it is not a serious thing in christianity. In other words, robin says, there is no need to believe in Trinity.
 
 Thomasd, did you understand the same thing? Please tell. And then say good-bye to Trinity at least. Thanks.
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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robin
 
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2008 at 1:03am
Originally posted by minuteman

 
 In the post of robin above, robin has admitted that trinity has nothing to do with the early christians teaching. It rather evolved out during 300 or 400 years. So it is not a serious thing in christianity. In other words, robin says, there is no need to believe in Trinity.
 
 Thomasd, did you understand the same thing? Please tell. And then say good-bye to Trinity at least. Thanks.
 
 
Here we agree very much!
 
Futher to the start of this thred here are a few more fcst that show where the trinity came from:-
 

WHY IS THE USE OF PHILOSOPHICAL CONCEPTS TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE WRONG?

 

First what does the Bible say on this matter at Colossians 2:8:-

 
NWT “Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ; …”
 

E.S.V.  “See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.”

 

In the above text the uses of Philosophy is condemned, why?  The last clause in the text tells us “not according to Christ,” thus it is not Christian and of “the world” and “human” thinking!   How is this the case?  We will have a very brief look at the most influential philosopher on the early ‘Church Fathers’:-

 

    “Plato's influence extended far beyond the Academy. In his lifetime he was the most celebrated teacher of his day. After his death his ideas were taken up by countless other thinkers. Philo of Alexandria used Plato's ideas to give a philosophical framework to Judaism. Early Christian writers eagerly embraced Plato's thought as the best available instrument for explaining and defending the teachings of the Bible and church tradition. Of the Christian Platonists, St. Augustine of Hippo was the best known and most influential. … Platonism and some elements of Neoplatonism were absorbed and used by Christian teachers and blended with Biblical doctrine.”-Compton’s Interactive Encyclopaedia

 

What was Philosophy to the Greeks?

"Greek philosophy, which began as an attempt to understand the world without recourse to religious myth ended up as a rational theology which attempted to define in detail the relationship between God the soul, and the world. . . . . Greek philosophy was in no way indebted to Greek polytheism. it was rather the case that the religious consciousness of Greece was enhanced by her philosophers.  This process is particularly clear in Plato and Aristotle.  Plato wanted to refine religion, not reject it, and so he combined stringent criticism of the traditional stories about the gods with a reasoned presentation of the divine nature as totally honest and benevolent in word and deed.  Aristotle's extraordinary achievement in theology was to deduce an elevated and monotheistic view of the deity from the nature of the physical world."-'An introduction to Greek philosophy' by J.V. Luce pp.12 and 13

 

The above shows that Philosophy was a way to explain the  Gods or another Greek term for there theology!  So from where did Plato and other Greek philosophers get there ideas?  The following quotes will show this:-

 
A   "No country has affected the development of the Christian religion more than profoundly than has Egypt, or rather-to speak more exactly-no city has affected the development of the Christian religion more profoundly than Alexandria, the Greek-speaking capital of Egypt. . . . The outstanding legacy of Egypt to the Church, the legacy which has coloured all later history, has been scientific Platonizing theology which the catechetical school of Alexandria was beginning to fashion at the second Christian century and which the comprehensive genius of Origen carried to a successful issue in the first half of the third century."-'The Legacy of Egypt' edited by S.R.K. Gleanville's p. 300

 

B.   "Many of the theories of Egyptian religion modified and transformed no doubt, and penetrated into the theology of Christian Europe, and formed, as it were, part of the woof in the web of modern religious thought. Christian theology was largely organised and nurtured in the schools of Alexandria, and Alexandria was not only the meeting place of East and West, it was also the place where the decrepit theology of Egypt was revived by contact with the speculative philosophy of Greece.   The Egyptian, the Greek, and the Jew may here on equal terms, and the result was a theological system in which each has his share.   In Philo we are told, we find Moses Platonising; but the atmosphere in which he did so was that of the old Egyptian faith.  And what was true of the philosophy of Philo was still more true of the philosophy of Alexandrine Christianity.  . . . Perhaps, however the indebtedness of Christian theological theory to ancient Egyptian dogma is nowhere more striking than in the doctrine of the Trinity.  The very terms used of it by Christian theologians meet us again in the inscriptions and papyri of Egypt."-'The Religion of Ancient Egypt' by A.H. Sayce pp.229-30

 

C.  "Plato was initiated into the 'Greater Mysteries' at the age of 49.  The initiation took place in one of the subterranean hall of the Great Pyramid in Egypt.  The ISIAC TABLE formed the alter, before which the Divine Plato stood and received that which was always his, but which the ceremony of the Mysteries enkindled and brought from its dormant state.  With this ascent, after three days in the Great Hall, he was received by the Hierophant of the Pyramid (the Hierophant was seen only by those who had passed the three days, the three degrees, the three dimensions) and given verbally the Highest Esoteric Teachings, each accompanied with Its appropriate Symbol.  After a further three months' sojourn in the halls of the Pyramid, the Initiate Plato was sent into the world to do the work of the Great Order, as Pythagoras and Orpheus had been before him." .  .  .  Those familiar with the fundamental principles of Hermetic Philosophy will recognise in the Mensa Isiaca* the key to Chaldean, Egyptian, and Greek theology.""-'The Secret Teaching of All Ages' by Manly P. Hall p.LVII

*Tablet Of Isis

 

 

The above shows that Pagan Egyptian Theological concepts where use to form the Trinity Doctrines under the influence of Pagan Greek Philosophy.   Thus is the answer to the question that heads this article.

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thomasd
 
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Quote thomasd Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2008 at 8:28am
Originally posted by robin

The trinity teaches that Jesus is God, this is divinity, you should know that!
 
Jesus like God and the angels is divine, but the trinity says he is Almighty, this is as lie drafted in from paganisum which paganizes christian teaching and make them of no value!

I believe in Jesus's equality with God independent of belief in the teaching of the trinity. He was granted the authority of the full measure of Gods' power, and the only human to ever exist without sin.
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Quote Salmaan Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2008 at 6:00am
Originally posted by thomasd


I believe in Jesus's equality with God independent of belief in the teaching of the trinity.


Where's your evidence from the scriptures to indicate Jesus is ONE with God (other than in purpose)?

Originally posted by thomasd


 He was granted the authority of the full measure of Gods' power


Being GRANTED (given) authority by a higher-authority (God) can hardly be termed as "full measure of Gods' power". Everything Jesus did was in submission to God (the Father). This is clear from the statement of Jesus:

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30)

In the Gospel according to Matthew 7:22, Jesus is quoted as saying:
“Not everyone who says to me,‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven.”


Originally posted by thomasd


[Jesus] the only human to ever exist without sin.


The Bible portrays Jesus as a man who racially insults a Canaanite woman when she comes to him pleading for help.

And He [Jesus] answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."  [Mat 15:26]

Note: Here children implies the children of Israel (Jews) and dog implies Gentiles (non-Jews).

This is clearly a sin, unless you don't consider calling someone a dog as an insult or even a racial slur in this context. Also see Mat 7:6 where gentiles are referred to as dogs and swine!

Of course this is not the only place where Jesus is portrayed as a sinner.
Jesus said anyone who calls someone a fool is in danger of hell fire (Mat 5:22)
Yet, he himself is guilty of calling others fools (Mat 23:17)

Further he calls the same pharisees: "You snakes! You brood of vipers!" (Mat 23:33)

No doubt the pharisees were guilty of misconduct, however, this is no way for a role-model to conduct himself by the use of derogatory terms in front of his fellow men and disciples.

Jesus is also not a very compassionate man according to the Bible as we note in the Gospel according to Luke (9:59-62) where he doesn't allow a man to bury his dead father and in another instance he refuses to let a man bid farewell to his family.

-- Salmaan
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robin
 
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2008 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by thomasd

Originally posted by robin

The trinity teaches that Jesus is God, this is divinity, you should know that!
 
Jesus like God and the angels is divine, but the trinity says he is Almighty, this is as lie drafted in from paganisum which paganizes christian teaching and make them of no value!

I believe in Jesus's equality with God independent of belief in the teaching of the trinity. He was granted the authority of the full measure of Gods' power, and the only human to ever exist without sin.
 
Power was, as you say, "granted" to him by the Almighty, Jesus thus is NOT Almighty, thus not part of an equal trinity!  
 
What you believe about the trinty is not from the Bible, but is the teaching and a "tradition" or man made doctrine, thus of no use in worshiping God:-
 
Matthew 15:6
.And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. . .


Edited by robin - 25 July 2008 at 11:21pm
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Quote PattyaMainer Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2008 at 2:34pm
I John 5:7-8 states the following:
 
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
 
There are MANY other scriptures which also clearly state that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.....this is the triune Godhead.  No mention of the word trinity is mentioned in the Bible, however, it is quite clear of the intention and assertion of one God comprise of three completely separate entities. 
 
Robin, you are trying to prove what Jehovah Witnesses believe...that Jesus is not God.  Even a good atheist knows you cannot prove a negative.  You should take a course in Quantam Physics. 
 
God is God; therefore, He can do anything.  Even create a Trinity, which He did choose to do and which does exist.    (Oh ye of little faith...where is your faith, Robin?)  Obviously it is not in the writings of the Holy Gospels.
 
God's Peace,
Patty
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 06 August 2008 at 6:25pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

I John 5:7-8 states the following:
 
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
 
There are MANY other scriptures which also clearly state that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.....this is the triune Godhead.  No mention of the word trinity is mentioned in the Bible, however, it is quite clear of the intention and assertion of one God comprise of three completely separate entities. 
 
Robin, you are trying to prove what Jehovah Witnesses believe...that Jesus is not God.  Even a good atheist knows you cannot prove a negative.  You should take a course in Quantam Physics. 
 
God is God; therefore, He can do anything.  Even create a Trinity, which He did choose to do and which does exist.    (Oh ye of little faith...where is your faith, Robin?)  Obviously it is not in the writings of the Holy Gospels.
 
God's Peace,
Patty
 
Hi Patty,
you are right God can do anything.
You said: "Even create a Trinity, which He did choose to do and which does exist. "
Let me say this, what God creates is created, but God is not created. Thus the created (as you agree in this case) the Trinity, is not equal to the Creator, God Almighty even if we assume there is one.
 
Regards,
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2008 at 1:01am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

I John 5:7-8 states the following:
 
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
 
There are MANY other scriptures which also clearly state that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.....this is the triune Godhead.  No mention of the word trinity is mentioned in the Bible, however, it is quite clear of the intention and assertion of one God comprise of three completely separate entities. 
 
Robin, you are trying to prove what Jehovah Witnesses believe...that Jesus is not God.  Even a good atheist knows you cannot prove a negative.  You should take a course in Quantam Physics. 
 
God is God; therefore, He can do anything.  Even create a Trinity, which He did choose to do and which does exist.    (Oh ye of little faith...where is your faith, Robin?)  Obviously it is not in the writings of the Holy Gospels.
 
God's Peace,
Patty
 
 

Does 1 John 5:6-8 teach the Trinity doctrine?

 

Please note the bold print and underlining in the following.   In the ‘King James Version’ of the Bible 1 John 5:6-8 reads thus:-

 

“6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”

 

The ‘Good News Bible’ at 1 John 5:6-8 reads thus:-

 

“6 Jesus Christ is the one who came with the water of his baptism and the blood of his death. He came not only with the water, but with both the water and the blood. And the Spirit himself testifies that this is true, because the Spirit is truth.

7 There are three witnesses:

8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and all three give the same testimony.”

 

The ‘New International Version’ at 1 John 5:6-8, excerpted from ‘Compton's Interactive Bible NIV’ reads thus:-

 

“6 This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

7 For there are three that testify:

8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”

 

The ‘New Revised Standard Version’ at 1 John 5:6-8 reads thus:-

 

“6 This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only, but with the water and the blood.  And the Spirit is the one that testifies, for the Spirit is the truth.

7 For there are three that testify:

8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three agree.”

 

            For many centuries 1 John 5:6-8 was used to prove that the trinity was a Bible Doctrine and still is by some churches.    But as noted by the bold type in the above, in these various translations there is a discrepancy in this text, as the K.J.V. has some extra words added (which are underlined), which are omitted by the others, why?

 

I connection with 1 John 5:6-8 we read in ‘THE AGES DIGITAL LIBRARY COMMENTARY CLARKE’S COMMENTARY NT, VOLUME 6B I THESS. - REVELATION by Adam Clarke. AGES Software Albany, or USA Version 2.0 © 1996, 1997 THE NEW TESTAMENTOF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST THE TEXT CAREFULLY PRINTED FROM THE MOST CORRECT COPIES OF THE PRESENT AUTHORIZED TRANSLATION, WITH A COMMENTARY AND CRITICAL NOTES; DESIGNED AS A HELP TO A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF THE SACRED WRITINGS BY ADAM CLARKE, LL.D., F.S.A., etc FOR WHATSOEVER THINGS WERE WRITTEN AFORETIME FOR OUR LEARNING; THAT WE, THROUGH PATIENCE AND COMFORT OF THE SCRIPTURES, MIGHT HAVE HOPE.- ROMANS 15:4 VOLUME VI(B) THESSALONIANS TO THE REVALATION. SAGE Software Albany, Oregon 1996’ from pages 904 - 907

 

            “1 John Ch. 5  "Verse 7. There are three that bear recordÑ The FATHER, who bears testimony to his Son; the WORD or logov, Logos, who bears testimony to the Father; and the HOLY GHOST, which bears testimony to the Father and the Son. And these three are one in essence, and agree in the one testimony, that Jesus came to die for, and give life to, the world.

 

But it is likely this verse is not genuine. It is wanting in every MS. of this epistle written before the invention of printing, one excepted, the Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin: the others which omit this verse amount to one hundred and twelve.

 

It is wanting in both the Syriac, all the Arabic, AEthiopic, the Coptic, Sahidic, Armenian, Slavonian, etc., in a word, in all the ancient versions but the Vulgate; and even of this version many of the most ancient and correct MSS. have it not. It is wanting also in all the ancient Greek fathers; and in most even of the Latin. The words, as they exist in all the Greek MSS. with the exception of the Codex Montfortii, are the following:—

 

“6. This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness because the Spirit is truth. 7. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one. 9. If we receive the witness of man, the witness of God is greater, etc.”

 

The words that are omitted by all the MSS., the above excepted, and all the versions, the Vulgate excepted, are these:—

 

([In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one, and there are three which bear witness in earth.])

 

To make the whole more clear, that every reader may see what has been added, I shall set down these verses, with the inserted words in brackets.  

 

“6. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7.  For there are three that bear record ([in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. 8. And there are three that bear witness in earth,]) the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one. 9. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater, etc.” Any man may see, on examining the words, that if those included in brackets, which are wanting in the MSS. and versions, be omitted, there is no want of connection; and as to the sense, it is complete and perfect without them; and, indeed much more so than with them. I shall conclude this part of the note by observing, with Dr. Dodd, “that there are some internal and accidental marks which may render the passage suspected; for the sense is complete, and indeed more clear and better preserved, without it. Besides, the Spirit is mentioned, both as a witness in heaven and on earth; so that the six witnesses are thereby reduced to five, and the equality of number, or antithesis between the witnesses in heaven and on earth, is quite taken away. Besides, what need of witnesses in heaven? No one there doubts that Jesus is the Messiah; and if it be said that Father, Son, and Spirit are witnesses on earth, then there are five witnesses on earth, and none in heaven; not to say that there is a little difficulty in interpreting how the Word or the Son can be a witness to himself.”

 

It may be necessary to inquire how this verse stood in our earliest English Bibles. In COVERDALE’S Bible, printed about 1535, for it bears no date, the seventh verse is put in brackets thus:—

 

And it is the Sprete that beareth wytnes; for the Sprete is the truth. (For there are thre which beare recorde in heaven: the Father, the Woorde, and the Holy Ghost, and these thre are one.) And there are thre which beare record in earth: the Sprete, water, and bloude and these thre are one. If we receyve, etc.

 

TINDAL was as critical as he was conscientious; and though he admitted the words into the text of the first edition of his New Testament printed in 1526, yet he distinguished them by a different letter, and put them in brackets, as Coverdale has done; and also the words in earth, which stand in 1 John 5:8, without proper authority, and which being excluded make the text the same as in the MSS., etc.

 

Two editions of this version are now before me; one printed in English and Latin, quarto, with the following title:—

 

The New Testament, both in Englyshe and Laten, of Master Erasmus translation-and imprinted by William Powell-the yere of out Lorde M.CCCCC.XLVII. And the fyrste yere of the kynges (Edw. VI.) moste gratious reygne. 

 

In this edition the text stands thus:—

 

And it is the Spirite that beareth wytnes, because the Spirite is truth (for there are thre whiche beare recorde in heaven, the Father, the Worde, and the Holy Ghost, and these thre are one.) For there are thre which beare recorde, (in earth,) the Spirite, water, and blode, and these thre are one. If we receyve, etc.

 

The other printed in London “by William Tylle, 4to; without the Latin of Erasmus in M.CCCCC.XLIX. the thyrde yere of the reigne of our moost dreade Soverayne Lorde Kynge Edwarde the Syxte,” has, with a small variety of spelling, the text in the same order, and the same words included in brackets as above.

 

The English Bible, with the book of Common Prayer, printed by Richard Cardmarden, at Rouen in Normandy, fol. 1566, exhibits the text faithfully, but in the following singular manner:—

 

And it is the Spyryte that beareth witnesse, because the Spyryte is truthe. (for there are three which beare recorde in heaven, the Father, the Woorde, and the Holy Ghost; and these Three are One) And three which beare recorde* (in earth) the Spirite, and water, and bloode; and these three are one.

 

The first English Bible which I have seen, where these distinctions were omitted, is that called The Bishops’ Bible, printed by Jugge, fol. 1568. Since that time, all such distinctions have been generally disregarded. Though a conscientious believer in the doctrine of the ever blessed, holy, and undivided Trinity, and in the proper and essential Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, which doctrines I have defended by many, and even new, arguments in the course of this work, I cannot help doubting the authenticity of the text in question; and, for farther particulars, refer to the observations at the end of this chapter.

 

Verse 8. The Spirit, and the water, and the bloodÑ This verse is supposed to mean “the Spirit — in the word confirmed by miracles; the water — in baptism, wherein we are dedicated to the Son, (with the Father and the Holy Spirit,) typifying his spotless purity, and the inward purifying of our nature; and the blood — represented in the Lord’s Supper, and applied to the consciences of believers: and all these harmoniously agree in the same testimony, that Jesus Christ is the Divine, the complete, the only Savior of the world.” — Mr. Wesley’s notes.

 

By the written word, which proceeded from the Holy Spirit, that Spirit is continually witnessing upon earth, that God hath given unto us eternal life.

 

By baptism, which points out our regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Ghost, and which is still maintained as an initiatory rite in the Christian Church, we have another witness on earth of the truth, certainty, importance, and efficacy of the Christian religion. The same may be said of the blood, represented by the holy eucharist, which continues to show forth the death and atoning sacrifice of the Son of God till he comes. See the note on 1 John 5:6."”

 

 

 

1 John 5:7-8 New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures published

by the Watchtower and Bible Tract Society (Jehovah's Christian Witnesses):-

"7  For there are three witness bearers, 

8 the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.

 

THE VULGATE (Latin) - Jerome. 

1 John 5:7 quia tres sunt qui testimonium dant   8 Spiritus et aqua et sanguis et tres unum sunt

 

DARBY TRANSLATION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT by John Nelson Darby

7 For they that bear witness are three:

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one.

 

THE AMERICAN STANDARD NEW TESTAMENT

7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.

 

 WEYMOUTH’S THE NEW TESTAMENT IN MODERN SPEECH translated by Richard Francis Weymouth

7 For there are three that give testimony — the Spirit, the water, and the blood;

8 and there is complete agreement between these three.

 

To sum the above up we can do no better than:-

 

"The extra words* in the KJV rendering of this Passage are among the most poorly attested of all the disputed verses in the KJV and Textus Receptus.  The addition is not found in any Greek manuscripts or English translation until the sixteenth century and most scholars agree that it is a forgery."-The Accuracy of the NIV by Kenneth L. Barker p.101

 

*The "extra words in the KJV (King James Version)" that are "a forgery" are found in 1 John Ch. 5 verse 7 are as follows, "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

 

 

 

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