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robin
 
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Quote robin Replybullet Topic: From where did the trinity teaching come?
    Posted: 23 May 2008 at 7:05am

Where the trinity idea came from.

a) "Was the idea of the Trinity - that One God exists in three Persons and One Substance - influenced by pre-Christian traditions? It is well known that the New testament offers no such doctrine, and there is no evidence the Jesus of Nazareth regarded himself as a member of the Trinity. The doctrine was developed during the first four Christian centuries, culminating in the Council of Constantinople in AD 381. . . . In Egypt the concept of trinity was of ancient origin, but it flourished especially in the second century AD and afterwards, when the mystery cult of Isis reached its acme of popularity in a Graeco-Egyptian framework which found adherents in many countries of the Roman empire. This religious amalgam exercised a potent influence on early Christian thinkers, particularly in Alexandria"

b) "There is no clear evidence that the apostles of Jesus entertained that doctrine. Nor does he give his claim to be "Christ" or his participation in the godhead any such prominence as on feels would have been done had he considered it a matter of prime significance."

c) "Professor Studer shows how early apocalyptic vision developed into sophisticated, philosophically orientated theology concerning the mystery of God, the world and humankind."

d) "Christian thought, working with data of the NEW T ESTAMENT AND USING GREEK PHILOSOPHY AS ITS INSTRUMENT, CONSTRUCTED THE DOCTRINE OF TRINITY IN UNITY."

e) "The Platonism and Stoic of the pagan philosophers of the Hellenistic Age was used by the early church Fathers of the Church as a welcome aid to the formulation of Christian doctrine ... "

f) "Those wishing to see Jesus as god rather than man could rely on the Gospel according to St John. For this, despite its Hellenism, had concentrated in mystical and allegorical fashion on the divine nature of Jesus, seeing him not as a man but as a personified idea pp.206, 207)."

g) "Now if, when it emerged, the Nicene dogma was inevitable, it was nonetheless new. . . . Equally, it marks a transition from things related to us as they are in themselves, from the relational concepts of God as supreme agent, Creator, Omnipotent Lord of all, to an ontological concept of the divine substance itself."

h) "It may be that the Platonic contribution in this field [Plaestinian-bred Christian religion] has already been absorbed, and digested by the Christian Fathers, but Plato is perenninial."

i) "Plato's Influence - "Although Plato did not hold a dominant place in the philosophy of the Hellenistic Age, he came to the that position in the early centres of the Christian era. Patristic theology took shape largely in the framework of platonic philosophy. Not only Christian thought but also some Jewish (notably Philo) and later Islamic philosophy owed much to him. Plato's emphasis on nonmaterial reality, a deathless soul distinct from the body, the idea of a cosmic religion (beauty of the celestial order), and a just society has been enormously influential."

j) "The Apologists were in the direct line of decent of Christian tradition. With them began a process of accommodation, inevitable in the progress of the Church, between Christianity and the dominant philosophy, a process carried on with greater skill and knowledge by Alexandrian doctors of the third century and issuing finally in the fourth century in the comprehensive Faith of Nicaea and the Christianization of Hellenism rather that the "Hellenization of Christianity.""


The above quotes from the following publications:-

a) From the dust cover of the book 'Triads and Trinity' by John Gwyn Griffiths BA, DD (Wales), MA (Liverpool), D.Phil., D.Litt. (Oxon,) is Professor Emeritus of Classics and Egyptology at the University of Wales, Swansea
b) H.G. Wells' book 'The Outline of History' p.52, 6l
c) The back cover of Basil Studer's book 'Trinity and Incarnation'
d)'Christian Doctrine' by J.S. Whale p.41
e)'Greek and Roman Philosophy after Aristotle' by Jason L. Saunders Ed p.12
f)'The Climax of Rome' by Michael Grant p.21l
g)'The Way to Nicea' by Bernard Lonergan p.136
h)'PLATO and the Christians' by Adam Fox Archdeacon of Westminster (1757) p.27
i) 'Background if Early Christianity' 2nd Ed. by Everett Ferguson p.315
j) 'The Greek Fathers' by James M. Campbell associate professor of Greek & Latin in the Catholic University America pp.23-24 and all being eminent scholars and or orthodox theologians



Edited by robin - 23 May 2008 at 7:06am
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believer
 
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 29 May 2008 at 7:09am
Man trying to explain GOD and put a label on it!!! 
 
 
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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robin
 
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2008 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by believer

Man trying to explain GOD and put a label on it!!! 
 
 
 
AND FAILING TO DO SO!
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Mystical
 
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Quote Mystical Replybullet Posted: 07 June 2008 at 5:31pm

Jesus apostles believed in one God. They also believed Jesus was God and still they could justify believe in one God. They did NOT claim to believe in 2 Gods ever so the concept of the Trinity is from their understanding that Jesus claimed to be the "Son" and the Holy Spirit whom He sent after His ascent to the "right hand of the Father" is also the same nature (The TRUTH) as God.

Also above I saw calculations that are incorrect in terms of the Trinity. 1+1+1 does indeed = 3 but it is a mistake to use this in reference to the Trinity. Although three DISTINCT Personages God is ONE. You may want to use the 1x1x1=1 for better understanding on this point.
 
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robin
 
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Quote robin Replybullet Posted: 08 June 2008 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Mystical

Jesus apostles believed in one God. They also believed Jesus was God and still they could justify believe in one God. They did NOT claim to believe in 2 Gods ever so the concept of the Trinity is from their understanding that Jesus claimed to be the "Son" and the Holy Spirit whom He sent after His ascent to the "right hand of the Father" is also the same nature (The TRUTH) as God.

Also above I saw calculations that are incorrect in terms of the Trinity. 1+1+1 does indeed = 3 but it is a mistake to use this in reference to the Trinity. Although three DISTINCT Personages God is ONE. You may want to use the 1x1x1=1 for better understanding on this point.
 
Cheers
 
 
The Apostles did not believe the Trinity:-
 
1 Corinthians 8:6
there is actually to us one God the Father. . .
 
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,
 
Ephesians 4:5-6
one faith, one baptism; 6 one God. . .
 
James 2:19
You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite we. . .
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 21 June 2008 at 8:38pm
 
 The christians were misled into Trinity. An explanation (reason) is given here:
 
 In some last chapter of mathew, it is told "Go and preach in the name of the father and the holy spirit and the son..."   By that the christians made three gods or part gods. That teaching was alright. It was necessary to preach in the name of God the father. It was also right to preach in the name of the holy spirit and the son (Jesus) as the source of guidance. There was no harm in mentioning the source.
 
 We Muslims have the Kalimah "There is no God except Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah". That means we believe there is no God except Allah and we believe only in the matters of religion what comes from Muhammad only. If any one else teaches us anything about religion, even about One God, we will not take it unless it is from the prophet Muhammad.
 
 But that does not mean the prophet Muhammad is a God beside Allah. His name is there permanently in our faith (Kalimah). Nobody can separate the name of Muhammad from the name of Allah. But He (Muhammad) is not god. He is only a man and a messenger of Allah.
 
 Similarly, the holy spirit and Jesus were important part of the preaching. They should have been mentioned in all the teachings and preachings of the christians. But they should not have been made into gods.
 
 So the christian preachers made the mistake which Quran mentions as a sin, i.e. to take others as Lords beside Allah. I have checked. The christians not only take Jesus as a Lord beside Allah but they also like to keep the apostles as Lords beside Allah. They give importance to the sayings of the apostles as if those were from God Almighty.


Edited by minuteman - 21 June 2008 at 8:43pm
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 23 June 2008 at 3:12am
Robin you are polytizing in a section that is for issues regarding islam's position, this needs to be in the interfaith section.
Also, discussions on the trinity are in a few threads, you just need to do a search for it and then continue with one of the threads already formed.


Edited by Angel - 23 June 2008 at 3:16am
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Quote thomasd Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2008 at 9:28pm
The discussion of the trinity is a really intriguing one, but its completely off the mark to try and say that Jesus never made claims of divinity.
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