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General Islamic Matter
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : General Islamic Matter
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seekshidayath
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2008 at 2:07am

Brother Rami said :

 Humans and jinn are created with the Fitrah of La illaha illah llah only not "Lah illaha illah llah muhamad rasul allah".

So when and how has fitrah ever been viewed "in respect" to the shahadah?

Where is "Muhamad Rasul allah" in any of this?


La ilaha ill Allah is indeed part of fitrah, But Mohammed ur RasoolUllah is subjected to knowledge only. Muhammad ur Rasool Allah is being attested.If a person never heard about Prophet Mohammed PBUH but did not commit shirk also, he is  considered  as  a true believer.

There is a hadith that  belief in Prophet is subjected to knowledge. For instance -  the Sabians. They , they did not have a specific religion that they followed and enforced, because they remained living according to their Fitrah (instinctual nature). 

 
This has nothing to do with the Fitrah of man being "La illaha illah llah muhamad rasul allah", all the verse is referring to is that man is created in a clean state upright and with the ability to lead a good life

Tafseer of this verse says that, Allah says: `so set your face and persevere in the religion which Allah has prescribed for you, the worship of Allah Alone, the religion of Ibrahim, to which Allah has guided you and which He has perfected for you with the utmost perfection. In this manner, you will also adhere to the sound Fitrah with which He created His creation.' Allah created His creation to recognize Him and know His Tawhid, and that there is no God except Him, { which is again a shahadah - La ilaha illal lah }

And according to a Hadith, Allah said,"I created my servants Hunafa (i.e., monotheists), then the Shayatin misled them from their religion.'' We will see in the Hadiths that Allah created His creation with the Fitrah of Islam, then among some of them there emerged corrupt religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism..

how can the laws of islam be in harmony with the fitrah of man [from the beginning of time] every time allah brought a new religion he changed those laws. Did he change man to conform to the laws NO he changed the laws to conform to mans changing nature.

So how can all humans from the time of Adam be born muslims when each had there own religion which conformed to the fitrah that the humans of the time where born on.

I mean this only in the general sense as no amount of purifying our heart [so we know our pure nature clearly] will ever lead me to realise that my fitrah is to pay 2.5% zakkat, the reality is all these laws are commandments from Allah we are not expected to know them specifically in our hearts.

Here i thought you got confused with deen and shariah. Certainlly they are different terms. La ilaha ilala is part of fitrah. In a verse Allah says that a witness comes to him {man}  from Allah.  That witness is the pure, perfect and magnificent legislation that Allah revealed to the Prophets. These legislations were finalized with the legislation (Shari`ah) of Muhammad . The believer has the natural disposition that bears witness to (the truth of) the general legislation, and accepts that specific laws are taken from the general legislation. The Fitrah accepts the Shari`ah and believes in it .

And finally, i do not have much deeper knowledge of the words Deen, Shariah, Islam, Muslim and Fitrah as you possess . Yes, i do agree that they are different terms, at the same time they are inter-related.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2008 at 7:33pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
 
 
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahi rahmani raheemIf you haven't read the ahadith about allah making all souls take this oath before man was created [which i assumed was general knowledge] then i misunderstood your post, Allahu Allam.

 
It is writtein in "Lives of Man" by Imam al-Haddad, that Allah took an oath from all mankind after they were once born from Adam (alaihe salam).  And since he had been talking about 5 lives of man, this first time birth of entire mankind all at one time is a phenomenon which is not the same as our birth which we know of commonly - it is something to be understood in a similar light as the saying of our prophet (sallallahu alaihe wasallam) "I was a prophet when Adam was between man and clay"
 
Can you confirm where it has been said that the oath was taken before man was created?


Edited by Nausheen - 28 May 2008 at 7:34pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 28 May 2008 at 10:08pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

it is from memory sister, i maybe wrong but i dont think i am since i also remember a shaykh once explaining that the tawheed aspect of our fitrah was placed there by Allah to help us remember this oath in life and fulfill it. I think there is a mistranslation of the work since the hadith clearly states he brought all the souls together, unless there are multiple contradictory ahadith on the mattter?

i did a Quick google search i couldn't find the specific hadith but the auther of this post at least thinks the hadith says what i said....allahu allam.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:n38hWH8c7YEJ:darulislam.info/Article130.html+allah+gatherd+all+souls+oath&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=au&client=firefox-a



Edited by rami - 28 May 2008 at 10:12pm
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 12 June 2008 at 9:43pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
 
My apologies to you Rami for such a late response to this post. Always intended to bring the quotes for your reference, but something would keep me from doing so.
First of all Jazak Allahu khair for posting the chached link, it made things a lot simpler.
 
Not sure if the real hadith is quoted in the article or it is being re-itterated.
 
The copy of "Lives of Man"that I have is tranlated by Mustafa al-Badawi and publisher is Fons Vitae, Quilliam Press - if this info bears any authenticity ...
 
quote pg 7: The first life begins with God's creation of Adam, upon whom be peace, and the entrusting of his progeniture (dhurriya) to his blessed loins, both the people of the right and those of the left ....
 
Then God brought this progeniture out from Adam's loins all at once, to take the covenant (mithaq) that they recognised [His] Unity and Lordship. This event which happened at Numan, a valley near Araafat, is referred to in His saying (Exalted is He!) :
 
When your lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed, and made them testify of themselves [He said:] 'Am I not your Lord?' They said: 'Yea! we testify! [That was] lest you should say on the Day of Rising: 'Of this we were unaware' [7:172]
 
The verse following this referes to it also. It has been related in Tradition that when He took the covenant, He recorded it in writing and fed it to the Black Stone, and that this was the meaning of the saying of those who touch the Black Stone during the circumbulation of the Ancient House: 'O God! This is believing in you, fulfilling our pledge to You, and declaring the truth of Your Record'
 
Because of these things, there can be no doubt that the progeniture was possessed of existence, hearing and speech; this, however was at a degree or dimension of existence other than that of this world ..... end of quote
 
So I think for a simple mind it suffices to say that the oath was taken from the mankind before they came to the life of this world, which is a life of accountability. However from the above it appears the oath was taken after their creation.
 
Also, the oath here is referred to  in parenthesis by the word mithaq, as opposed to fitrah that was being discussed earlier.
 
Strong possibilty exists that the apparent cotroversy is only due to my feable understanding of the two resources.
 
 And Allah knows best.  
 
 


Edited by Nausheen - 12 June 2008 at 9:49pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 12 June 2008 at 10:20pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

I dont think it makes a difference to this discussion sister since the ulumah agree that man has an instinctual beliefe in God which is fitrah.

I think your quote makes more sense since saydinah adam had direct ccontact with Allah and it would not have been nesisary for him to take such an oath but i dont think allah gave us bodies he simply gathered the souls [as i remember the hadith] becouse this would indicate we had already died beffore being born if we had bodies.

Allahu allam
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 12 June 2008 at 11:50pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
 
 
 
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

I dont think it makes a difference to this discussion sister since the ulumah agree that man has an instinctual beliefe in God which is fitrah.

I think your quote makes more sense since saydinah adam had direct ccontact with Allah and it would not have been nesisary for him to take such an oath but i dont think allah gave us bodies he simply gathered the souls [as i remember the hadith] becouse this would indicate we had already died beffore being born if we had bodies.

Allahu allam
 
Not necessary that we had died once. One strong reason why I don't think is indicated here in the title of the book : "LIVES of Man". When the book goes into discussing life and then death, then life after death, and later the eternal life - it has very carefully organised the episodes of lives our soul passes through. It does not mention two deaths.
 
Another point which is mentioned in the quote ... Because of these things, there can be no doubt that the progeniture was possessed of existence, hearing and speech; this however, was at degree or dimension of existence other than that of this world. There are many levels of existence, as is well known by those people who know existence.
 
And there is more on the subject which I am reluctant to quote because I am myself not sure of its meanings.
 
Though honestly speaking there are occasions when I am stuck without a teacher explaining the ideas expressed in this book. It is by no means easy on the intellect. So don't let it bother you too much. If am able to find better explainations in future, perhaps we can have a fresh discussion. Khair inshAllah.
 
 


Edited by Nausheen - 12 June 2008 at 11:56pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2008 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by dian

Assalammu 'alaykum warahmatullah wabarakatuh,

Is it obligatory for children born in islamic family to recite syahadat at the time when they are baligh in order to be muslim? I read different versions on this topic which is quite confusing. please help....

jazakumullah khairan katsira,

dian
 
As'sallamualaikum sister. . .
 
According to what we read in the Qur'an, Hadith and the Prophet's practise. . . .there is no such "obligation" /ritual for a muslim child to recite the shahadah at the onset of Puberty.
 
To other readers: Do not get me wrong. I am not at alll saying that Shahadah itself is not obligatory. I am referring to the misconception that there is such a ritual as reciting Shahdah when one reaches puberty.
 
The Prophet never asked the muslims to recite Shahadah when they reach puberty. This suggests that the child was not muslim before? Bcz such a declaration suggests that now he is. . .
 
Sister Dian, whenever you are confused about the different 'versions' of Islam that you hear from different groups-which you will get. . . the best way to know which is "right" or according to Islamic injunctions to ask them for a reference from either the Qur'an, Sahih (Authentic) Hadith or Sunnah. If they quote/refer from the Hadith, Qur'an or Sunnah . . .then your obligation is to look it up (if the person u hear it frm is not to be trusted, or u doubt him/her - so best to confirm later) . . . and if the person seems/is reliable enough then you can accept thier authentic quotation. Needless to say, if the person cannot support thier theory with an Islamic refernce, one should not believe it immediatley, rather ONLY believe stuff that can be verified (the Prophet mentioned something in a hadith which I can mention later)
 
The reason why there is no such ritual is because a muslim-born child will/should already have the knowledge that There is no god but Allah, who is ONE, and that Muhammad is the last messenger of Allah. If a non-muslim family converts, then the child should also recite Shahadah, no need to wait for puberty.
    Also, islamically speaking. . . a muslim child should be given adequate/minimum islamic knowledge as a child. This includes some Qur'anic verses (if not reading the Qur;an with translation atleast once) as well as necessary fiqh/islamic injunctions such as Taharat (ablution/cleansing) etc It is also a strongly recommended that the muslim child should know the 6 Kalimahs, which includes aspects of Shahadah as well, as well as atleast some Surahs of the Qur'an so he/she can use it in Prayers.
 
Hence, by bieng born muslim, and having even minimum Islamic knoweldge, the child will already have knowledge of Shahadah. Having said that, there is no obligatory ritual to officially recite shahadah at puberty.
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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