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 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Politics : World Politics
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Noah
 
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Quote Noah Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 5:32pm
Nico. wow man, you burst right into the core of things. i have nothing to further add. i wouldt have gone there for anothr 3 or 4 pages.

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Noah
 
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Quote Noah Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 5:42pm
B: That depends.  Did the neighbor murder people and bury them all over his back yard?  Did he go on to murder and rape some of his kids?  Did he threaten to murder more people in the neigborhood and even masses of others in other neighborhoods - all the while violating city and state ordinances and even federal ordinances...was all this validated by everyone in the neighborhood and then by evidence afterward?  I would have no guilt for having smashed down that evil man's door and bringing him to justice and setting his family free, no.


You answer the question you wish i would have asked it seems. Here is the Question again

So, if someone robs your house, and you think it might be the neighbour, but you can neither prove, nor disproof it. but you do know that he did at some point have something to do, or was perhaps involved with theft, thats valid reason enough to go smash his door in, and burn down the house?. Am i correct ,in following the outline of the logic you just presented?.

B: You surely know about the high level contacts between the Iraqi Intelligence Services under Saddam and al Qaeda leadership, don't you?  Assuming of course, you're doing your homework!?

My best freind was mujahideen. I have this streight from the horses mouth. I have confirmed it by media sources aswell although they tend to only tell what serves them or whatever agenda they might have.

No i actually dont know about those high level contacts, because they didnt excist at all ever. They met up with him, because saddam had become scared and suddenly gave it as the faithfull muslim (allthough when he came to power he was communist) calling for a jihad. The mujahideen smelled rat (and had a problem with his rule in first place) and left, to later attack him. They where slaughtered by saddams forces, American marines, Brittish S.A.S and their new hardware, courtesy of the UNITED STATES!
So yes i have as usuallly really done my homework, because information is one of the things i love most about the world :)

here comes a question though...

under Saddam and al Qaeda leadership, don't you?


leadership of what? Al'Queda has never been anywhere near power in Iraq? Today they properbly are active in the sunni triangle again, but what does that tell you? its the shiits that keep smashing everything up, and the sunnis that try to hunt them down. Its insanity. we were brethren once

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b95000
 
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by nico

How would you suggest this vicious cycle be derailed?

Common sense, its simple the world economy for all its computers and hi-tech toys is still a economy that is essentially the same as it was in 1913. It is an oil based economy, whilst the capitalist world has been in the hot pursuit of the cheapest, most efficent way to make things and transport them. The cheapest, easiest, and efficent way to transport things has been the internal combustion engine, invented back in the 1890's I believe. So throughout the last 115 years or so, the world economy has revolved around the King of Oil. The Islamic world in this regard is powerless to change anything, as long as the oil is flowing and the money is coming back these regimes are there to stay (unless there is SO much angst like in Russia which was the Saudi Arabia of the early 1900's), so if Muslims want democracy, freedom, and all these goodies they will need to advocate a Green Economy here in the West. Problematically for them, advocating such a massive economic shift nessecitates that their economies would collapse, and so would much of the Islamic world's economy be plunged into depression. Oil is what I call "Allah's curse" Muslim societies have been able to circumvent modernization, change, and democracy by having oil which "rents" the leaders of these nations legitmacy (that is why they are called Rentier nations). To me Islam and Democracy, Islam and Modernization already are growing and thriving in nations without oil like Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia.



Economics certainly has a huge part - perhaps predominant as you may suggest - part to play.  However, we cannot minimize the impact or radicalized Islam on the region.  Taking personal responsibility for commonly held religious principles and opposing vigorously those that don't is a huge test for Islam as a great world faith.  Diversifying economically will be another huge test for the region.

As to the successful models you point to, you can add Turkey to that list, although do they have oil - can't recall...also do the nations you mention have secular governments, institutions and constitutions (again not sure on all the specifics there) but that would also set them apart from many of the other so-called predominantly Muslim nation states.
Bruce
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b95000
 
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by Noah

B: That depends.  Did the neighbor murder people and bury them all over his back yard?  Did he go on to murder and rape some of his kids?  Did he threaten to murder more people in the neigborhood and even masses of others in other neighborhoods - all the while violating city and state ordinances and even federal ordinances...was all this validated by everyone in the neighborhood and then by evidence afterward?  I would have no guilt for having smashed down that evil man's door and bringing him to justice and setting his family free, no.


Noah: You answer the question you wish i would have asked it seems. Here is the Question again

So, if someone robs your house, and you think it might be the neighbour, but you can neither prove, nor disproof it. but you do know that he did at some point have something to do, or was perhaps involved with theft, thats valid reason enough to go smash his door in, and burn down the house?. Am i correct ,in following the outline of the logic you just presented?.

B: No, I answered your question and here's how (can you make the inference?)  If someone has done all these other heinous deeds - is it such a stretch to understand that he could have committed the theft also (for which you don't have strict proof but which you have reasonable suspicions about)?  The answer is no and in the case of Saddam, we had reasonable and corroborating intelligence that suggested that he was an immediate threat.  The question really wasn't whether he was a threat or not.  That was clear - the whole world understood and operated under that reality.  The question was how much a threat and how immediate a threat.  That is the only hook on which the anti-Iraq liberation crowd can hang their arguments.  Because all the other stuff I mentioned - about how heinous Saddam actually was - has been validated.

B original: You surely know about the high level contacts between the Iraqi Intelligence Services under Saddam and al Qaeda leadership, don't you?  Assuming of course, you're doing your homework!?

Noah: My best freind was mujahideen. I have this streight from the horses mouth. I have confirmed it by media sources aswell although they tend to only tell what serves them or whatever agenda they might have.

No i actually dont know about those high level contacts, because they didnt excist at all ever. They met up with him, because saddam had become scared and suddenly gave it as the faithfull muslim (allthough when he came to power he was communist) calling for a jihad. The mujahideen smelled rat (and had a problem with his rule in first place) and left, to later attack him. They where slaughtered by saddams forces, American marines, Brittish S.A.S and their new hardware, courtesy of the UNITED STATES!
So yes i have as usuallly really done my homework, because information is one of the things i love most about the world :)

B: Just fill me in to what you're discussing - the 80s or the 90s here?

here comes a question though...

under Saddam and al Qaeda leadership, don't you?


leadership of what? Al'Queda has never been anywhere near power in Iraq? Today they properbly are active in the sunni triangle again, but what does that tell you? its the shiits that keep smashing everything up, and the sunnis that try to hunt them down. Its insanity. we were brethren once

Peace
Noah


That wasn't my point at all Noah.  It wasn't that al Qaeda was in power in Iraq it was that they had the ear of the Iraqi state and that the Iraqi state appartus was assisting them in many and sundry ways - through diplomatic pouches and papers and there were many meetings over the 12 or 13 years prior to 2003 between IIS and important al Qaeda operatives and representatives.  Iraq had all kinds of weapons and other expertise, all kinds of motive and this kind of collaboration would portend all kinds of trouble and threat - even as it did in Afghanistan...

Are you also opposed to the MNF action in Afghanistan?
Bruce
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nico
 
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Quote nico Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2005 at 2:37pm

Economics certainly has a huge part - perhaps predominant as you may suggest - part to play. However, we cannot minimize the impact or radicalized Islam on the region.

Radicalized Islam exists out of materialism, it exists because of the economic failure of the regimes to bring the nessecary improvements in living standards, it exists out of the failure of Nasserism to bring about a Arab revival, its stems from the secular Arab regimes being humiliated in 1967 (a major turning point for the regions intellectual history), it also exists due to the role of Islam in the war in Afghanistan, and the Iranian Revolution (1979 the most important year in modern Islamic history) it showed to people that Islam is feasible and possible to acheive through violent means (although now violent Jihad is widely discredited by most Muslims and even Islamists as a way to achieve power). The economies of the region allow for wasat or corruption, which is the biggest greviance that the people of the region have against their gov'ts, and the Islamists (peaceful or not) play on that angst of intrenched special interests at the top of the population at the expense of the lower segments. It is the opposite of the European experience where the Church was that vested interest and the people became secularized, here visa versa. They have legitimate points that it is un-Islamic to have such massive discrepancies in wealth and oppurtunity, these societies exist because we support them, and because the population is disempowered, and apathetic and usually can be bought off.

As to the successful models you point to, you can add Turkey to that list,

I don't due to the role of the ultra-secularist military in the democracy (especially considering it has thrown out Islamic parties in the past from power), the human rights abuses done against Kurds.

although do they have oil

They don't have enough to even satisfy their own needs.

also do the nations you mention have secular governments, institutions and constitutions (again not sure on all the specifics there) but that would also set them apart from many of the other so-called predominantly Muslim nation states.

No it wouldn't, the vast majority of Muslim states in existance are secular states, with secularized constitutions, and nominal democratic instituions. What lacks in the Muslim world apart from a few exceptions is constitutionalism (actually abiding by the rules of the constitution).As it stands today there are no real "Islamic states", as in Islam there is only one state the Ummah. The very existance of "states" is un-Islamic and presents a HUGE challenges to Muslims.

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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 28 July 2005 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by nico

it also exists due to the role of Islam in the war in Afghanistan, and the Iranian Revolution (1979 the most important year in modern Islamic history) it showed to people that Islam is feasible and possible to acheive through violent means (although now violent Jihad is widely discredited by most Muslims and even Islamists as a way to achieve power).


Thanks Nico, for that throughtful treatment.  I would say about the above comment - though most Muslims may have discredited violence even 6% thought the London tube murders were justified.  That amounts to 100,000 British Muslims.  That's a lot of people if only a nominal percentage...that is problematic..

I agree to your thoughts on abiding by constitutional law and the Muslim view of the nation-state which I haven't seen discussed her much yet - although I'm pretty new here.
Bruce
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