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b95000
 
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 22 July 2005 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by Whisper

Extremely sad! I had really taken you for someone with a bit of sense and thats the only reason I had started to respond to your posts. Can you just stick to this point for a change?

B: Ah, Sasha, when I, or someone else, doesn't agree with you on every point - please don't take it personally!  I have no problem sticking to the point.  It just isn't always your point.  And that really seems to irk you.  I am not beholden to you to follow your rules for how I should post.  The same is true in reverse.

What has Sept. 11, 2001?  Or in Dar es Salaam or Nariobi August 7th, 1998 got to do with the invasion of Iraq? Even your intelligence had reported that there was no link between Al-Quaeda and Iraq.

B: Sasha, this is not wholly true.  What the bi-partisan group that wrote the 9/11 commission report actually said was that there was no evidence of a operational link between Saddam and the Sept. 11th attacks.  That is very different from saying there was no link between Iraq and AQ.  Such is demontrably NOT TRUE.  There was indeed a link that can be demonstrated through history, intel and documentation.

Furthermore, if you cannot see the connection between terrorism in general and the US actions in the ME today - then I pity you.  If Islamic motivated terror were not a reality and had not killed and maimed thousands and thousands in the past 10 years - the US would not be present in the ME as it is today.  This is a great challenge to Islam - get your house in order and the US/MNF will leave you to your freedoms.  Allow your extremist elements to slaughter our free peoples and you will be paying a price.  You shouldn't expect to mess with a bull and not get the horns.  I say this with all due respect to innocent people everywhere..

Is it really that hard for you to deal with questions at hand?

B: Not at all.  It is very hard for me to be controlled by another.  As is the case for you, too, I am sure.  You cannot command me to follow a certain path.  Furthermore, the path I've taken in these discussions has not been unreasonable, at all, in my humble opinion.

Instead of answering a simple question like "how come a man who was accused of providing your country faulty intelligence has been awarded the Medal of Freedom"? you have again jumped straight into Saddam's court.

B: Are you speaking of Chalabi - the guy that was chummy with the Iranian regime?

I did not know Saddam was responsible for your dodgy intelligence.

B: Come on now Sasha - are you really saying you don't think Saddam put our massive counter and mis-information?  That much seems very clear in hindsight - now that the level of WMD expected within Iraq was not found.  Of course that was Saddam putting out all sorts of heinous trial balloons...you don't accept that basic premise?

I hold a lot of specifics, in fact more than you could ever imagine.

B: Great, with specifics can come better discussions, more important nuance and conclusions that we can both agree on - rather than casting aspersions on each other - which does neither of us, nor anyone else, any good..

But then there is an old English saying: "Never cast thy pearls before te swine".

B: You do realize you're quoting Jesus Christ there?

The day you begin to answer questions and prove yourself capable of serious parleys instead of flying off into some other corner at the sight of each serious question, we will talk

B: Ah, the day I acknowledge that 'you're the one in control.'  Sorry.  Perhaps that day will not come then Sasha.  You can choose to label me anyway you choose - in fact you've already done that quite unfairly I might add - but that doesn't mean I've avoided answering your questions.  You have only now begun to get down to specifics.  Great, as far as I'm concerned we can now talk.  But if you want to add crazy non sequitur conclusions like you just did above - that may not happen.  Suit yourself...I'm simply a 'stupid American' to you, I suppose.  And you to me?  Maybe you'll never know...and that's too bad.  As my friends say in East Africa: Mucalma qwabaza olway bilungi...May God bless  you and give you a good day..

Right now you just seem to be playing some Dick Chenny lines and, almost as if you are paid for doing that.

B: Whatever Sasha! 



Edited by b95000
Bruce
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Whisper
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 23 July 2005 at 4:19pm

. . . the bi-partisan group that wrote the 9/11 commission report actually said was that "there was no evidence of a operational link between Saddam and the Sept. 11th attacks".

And, that stands as the exact truth however hard you try to distort it.

B: Are you speaking of Chalabi - the guy that was chummy with the Iranian regime?
When was Chalabi given a Medal of Freedom? You well know I meant George Tenett. He was the chief of your intelligence not Chalabi.

And, whats wrong about being friendly with Iran or any other of our neighbours. Must we always follow the US agenda in our regional affairs? 

B: You do realize you're quoting Jesus Christ there?    Thank you, I stand corrected. That's even better.

B: Ah, the day I acknowledge that 'you're the one in control.' 

My insistance on following a format of discussion has nothing to with control or anything of the sort. It's a serious disorder to just jump off a question when it begins to make sense that we do not wish to recognise. In fact, it's a very serious personality disorder, a psychiatrist told me at a recent conference.

I share your sadness. You have no points in your arsenal. That's perhaps the only reason why you are trying to score some here. Wish you luck in convincing yourself that the US has never taken a step wrong in her history and it's just Islam's fault that your country has lost her respect, image and total credibilty.

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b95000
 
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by Whisper

. . . the bi-partisan group that wrote the 9/11 commission report actually said was that "there was no evidence of a operational link between Saddam and the Sept. 11th attacks".

And, that stands as the exact truth however hard you try to distort it.

B: Excuse me, that was not your language - I was the one that clarified that phrase to the phrase used in the report - not you.  Therefore I was doing no 'distorting' you idiot - you were!  I'm simply amazed how you can pawn off on me the exact opposite of what transpired.  You really shouldn't be so sloppy with your language Sasha.  Secondly, this phrase says much, among the things it says is that we cannot prove or disprove that Saddam had operational links to 9/11 and we CERTAINLY know that Saddam had links in general and provided and aid and support to al Qaeda - that is documented and beyond refutation.  But I notice you didn't want to go there Sasha...is that inconvenient for your pet theorizations?

B Original: Are you speaking of Chalabi - the guy that was chummy with the Iranian regime?
When was Chalabi given a Medal of Freedom? You well know I meant George Tenett. He was the chief of your intelligence not Chalabi.

And, whats wrong about being friendly with Iran or any other of our neighbours. Must we always follow the US agenda in our regional affairs? 

B: You do realize you're quoting Jesus Christ there?    Thank you, I stand corrected. That's even better.

B: Ah, the day I acknowledge that 'you're the one in control.' 

My insistance on following a format of discussion has nothing to with control or anything of the sort. It's a serious disorder to just jump off a question when it begins to make sense that we do not wish to recognise. In fact, it's a very serious personality disorder, a psychiatrist told me at a recent conference.

B: Oh my, this is rich in hilarity!  You've GOT to be joking on this...Sasha, you've lept from the ridiculous to the sublime...what are we going to do with you now?  You've never shown me where I've either not answered a question you've put or swerved off...you only accuse...and throw prejoratives at all 300 million Americans..at an entire race, an entire nation...hmm.. that would be racist...what does your psychiatrist friend say about that as a 'serious personality disorder?'  Curious...

I share your sadness. You have no points in your arsenal. That's perhaps the only reason why you are trying to score some here.

B: This is only about the 6th time you've posted this...?!?  Don't you have anything to say?  I guess you're running low on racist remarks today? [According to Sasha: ALL 300 million Americans are 'stupid' and 'foolish' and have a 'difficult time thinking.']

Bruce
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Quote Noah Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2005 at 7:47pm
Peace

Secondly, this phrase says much, among the things it says is that we cannot prove or disprove that Saddam had operational links to 9/11 and we CERTAINLY know that Saddam had links in general and provided and aid and support to al Qaeda - that is documented and beyond refutation


So, if someone robs your house, and you think it might be the neighbour, but you can neither prove, nor disproof it. but you do know that he did at some point have something to do, or was perhaps involved with theft, thats valid reason enough to go smash his door in, and burn down the house?. Am i correct ,in following the outline of the logic you just presented?. As for the unrefutable evidence. please elaborate on this. Me, and say...most of the european press would love to see it. Because as of now...we havent seen nothing of the kind. The only link between Al-Queda and Iraq so far has been the Q.

If you did you homework, youd know that before the first gulfwar, the mujahideen tried to coup iraq. Do you know why they failed? do you know who came to saddams rescue? well do you? If you dont, find out!

Peace
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by Noah

Peace

Secondly, this phrase says much, among the things it says is that we cannot prove or disprove that Saddam had operational links to 9/11 and we CERTAINLY know that Saddam had links in general and provided and aid and support to al Qaeda - that is documented and beyond refutation


So, if someone robs your house, and you think it might be the neighbour, but you can neither prove, nor disproof it. but you do know that he did at some point have something to do, or was perhaps involved with theft, thats valid reason enough to go smash his door in, and burn down the house?. Am i correct ,in following the outline of the logic you just presented?.

B: That depends.  Did the neighbor murder people and bury them all over his back yard?  Did he go on to murder and rape some of his kids?  Did he threaten to murder more people in the neigborhood and even masses of others in other neighborhoods - all the while violating city and state ordinances and even federal ordinances...was all this validated by everyone in the neighborhood and then by evidence afterward?  I would have no guilt for having smashed down that evil man's door and bringing him to justice and setting his family free, no.

As for the unrefutable evidence. please elaborate on this. Me, and say...most of the european press would love to see it. Because as of now...we havent seen nothing of the kind. The only link between Al-Queda and Iraq so far has been the Q.

B: You surely know about the high level contacts between the Iraqi Intelligence Services under Saddam and al Qaeda leadership, don't you?  Assuming of course, you're doing your homework!?
Bruce
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Quote nico Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 4:11pm

The problem is associating Democracy with the US, Islam has a moderate history regarding Democracy. When you consider that the Caliph was elected by a group of religious scholars (Ulema) I believe, and the ideal of shura was created by the Ummah well before the European concepts of legitimacy, and transperancy. The Islamic form of Democracy is not unlike the British Parliamentary system, and it is a model which I believe that modern Islamic democracies can base themselves on. Like Britain, the Ummah has a common law constitution which was created by Fiqhs, and Sharia. The "problem of Democracy" is non-existant, the problem is that lack of it. Four things taint Democracy in the region:

1) oil

2) Tyrannical Dictatorships

3) Western Support of those dictatorships

4) Threat of Radical Islam

Those four things have been all mutually reinforcing to stop the growth of democracy in the region it goes like this:

Oil=Western Markets=Money=Western Oil Interests=Support of Regimes who supply the oil=In return for support social stability=Population Apathetic=To keep Social Stability the regimes pay off their potential enemies=radical Islamists cannot be bought=Regimes tell West that Islamists are worse options them themselves=More Western Support for Tyranny.

Basically how it works.

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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 4:37pm
Thanks Nico - interesting post.

How would you suggest this vicious cycle be derailed?
Bruce
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Quote nico Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2005 at 4:59pm

How would you suggest this vicious cycle be derailed?

Common sense, its simple the world economy for all its computers and hi-tech toys is still a economy that is essentially the same as it was in 1913. It is an oil based economy, whilst the capitalist world has been in the hot pursuit of the cheapest, most efficent way to make things and transport them. The cheapest, easiest, and efficent way to transport things has been the internal combustion engine, invented back in the 1890's I believe. So throughout the last 115 years or so, the world economy has revolved around the King of Oil. The Islamic world in this regard is powerless to change anything, as long as the oil is flowing and the money is coming back these regimes are there to stay (unless there is SO much angst like in Russia which was the Saudi Arabia of the early 1900's), so if Muslims want democracy, freedom, and all these goodies they will need to advocate a Green Economy here in the West. Problematically for them, advocating such a massive economic shift nessecitates that their economies would collapse, and so would much of the Islamic world's economy be plunged into depression. Oil is what I call "Allah's curse" Muslim societies have been able to circumvent modernization, change, and democracy by having oil which "rents" the leaders of these nations legitmacy (that is why they are called Rentier nations). To me Islam and Democracy, Islam and Modernization already are growing and thriving in nations without oil like Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia.

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