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Islam for non-Muslims
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 29 May 2008 at 4:56am
Originally posted by Israfil

Originally posted by Nausheen

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
 
Originally posted by honeto

I hope someone learnt on this matter responds. I have heard that if someone steals a bread if they are hungry, is not the same as someone robbing a gold ring or stealing a cow to increase wealth.  They don't get the same punishment. The intention and background of the matter is also to be considered?
Hasan
 
Absolutely! That is my take on the case. Let someone correct us, if this is not true.
Only I would add; if they are hungry, with no bread, and do not have the means to earn it. Becuase the state should ensure nobody is hungry. That is why we have the system of Zakaat (obligatory charity).  Exact words of the hadith is escaping my memory, but it goes on the lines that one should not be satisfied eating their dinner till they have ensured 7 households in their neighbourhood are not sleeping hungry.
 
If only humans were like that this world would be a lot better
 
Humans are supposed to be like this.
At the time of the early Caliphs poverty was all but wiped out so theft for food or dire need was unnecessary,  and during times of famine or hunger the punishment of amputation was often times suspended.
 
Ron, these punishments can only be carried out in a truly Islamic society. To try to incorporate them into Western society would be useless. Our societies have lost all sense of morality and what is or isn't lawful.
You see the criminal as being victimized by being punished for his crime without really seeing the harm he has done to his victim. Whether the amount is small or large, being robbed or burglarized leaves you feeling vulnerable and invaded. The person committing the act has no care for how you will feel, how hard you initially had to work to acquire that which is stolen, or what consequences the theft will have on your life. They are thinking merely of themselves at your expense. They have no mercy in the matter.
In our society they really have no fear in perpetrating the crime either because even if they are caught not much will happen to them in way of punishment. Who does that benefit? The person who is working hard to support himself and family and trying to live by the law or the person who doesn't care and commits theft?
 
It doesn't matter because we are living in a corrupt society and there is no true implementation of Shariah Law anyway.  But personally I believe the only persons who find the laws barbaric or fear them would be those who intend to break them. Otherwise what difference does it make? If no-one ever stole, no-one would ever have to be punished.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 29 May 2008 at 4:57am
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 29 May 2008 at 6:04pm

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

It doesn't matter because we are living in a corrupt society and there is no true implementation of Shariah Law anyway.  But personally I believe the only persons who find the laws barbaric or fear them would be those who intend to break them.

If I thought you truly believed that, I would be offended by your implication that I could be a thief.  Would you care to rephrase that?


Otherwise what difference does it make? If no-one ever stole, no-one would ever have to be punished.

But people do steal.  They always have, and they always will.  So it does make a difference, at least to those of us who find such punishments morally offensive in themselves, regardless of the societal goals they hope to achieve.

I think it makes a difference to society as a whole too, by inuring us all to violence and human suffering.  A society that would stoop to cutting off hands to curtail theft can easily justify suicide bombing, weapons of mass destruction, and similar atrocities to achieve other ideological goals.


Edited by Ron Webb - 29 May 2008 at 6:06pm
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 29 May 2008 at 7:34pm
Just as a society that hangs, gases, and electrocutes individuals can stoop to heinous acts.
 
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 29 May 2008 at 7:40pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

But people do steal.  They always have, and they always will.  So it does make a difference, at least to those of us who find such punishments morally offensive in themselves, regardless of the societal goals they hope to achieve.
Ron, with no offense intended -you are simply going in circles on this thread ... if you read from the beginning every argument and counter argument from you has already been answered. You flow from one point to another and reach from where it started. Do us a favor and please read once more from page one, you will know what I mean.
You said people already steal ... are you denying history? There have been times in the Islamic states when people did not steal. There was no need for it, because of the affluence, and the law and order - shata's aunt stated this in her post.
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I think it makes a difference to society as a whole too, by inuring us all to violence and human suffering.  A society that would stoop to cutting off hands to curtail theft can easily justify suicide bombing, weapons of mass destruction, and similar atrocities to achieve other ideological goals.
The punishment from God can be found in the Quran and/or sharia. When people make things crooked with their own hands, it finds no basis in these documents. Thus you will not find any sanction for suicide bombing in our scriptures. It is unfair to equate the two - unless now you have become non-serious, and it is better to leave you there.
 


Edited by Nausheen - 29 May 2008 at 7:44pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 29 May 2008 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Just as a society that hangs, gases, and electrocutes individuals can stoop to heinous acts.  
 
I agree to some extent, and I am not an enthusiastic supporter of capital punishment.  However, once again, you are attacking a straw man.  I am not denying that harsh punishments may sometimes be necessary -- an eye for an eye, a life for a life, capital punishment for capital crimes.  What I am saying (and maybe the fact that I have to keep repeating this is why Nausheen thinks I'm going in circles) is that harsh punishments should not be imposed for trivial crimes.  (And here we go again -- I can already anticipate people returning to Straw Man #2, replying to me that theft is not always trivial...)
 
Nausheen, I will try to reply more directly to you tomorrow, but it's time for Sleepy.
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 29 May 2008 at 10:59pm
Well trivial crimes are not not judged universally as trivial. For example look at bank robbery. If you walk in a bank with the intent to commit a crime its a felony or Section 2113(b) addresses the stage of taking and carrying away the property of the protected institution. The escape phase of the robbery is regarded as part of the robbery itself, not as a separate event that takes place afterward. Hence, any party assisting or participating in that phase of the robbery becomes a principal to the crime itself (United States v. von Roeder, 435 F.2d 1004 (10th Cir. 1970), but depending on the judge litigating the case anyone can get 5-24 years or more in federal prison.   In California and elsewhere in the States that is a federal offense. Now, to th bank robber who could be doing this out of pure necessity for money, in the eyes of the secular law we would think this is BS because there are avenues one could take to make ends meet. Now this is a staunch difference from a bread (or meat) thief. Perhaps certain socieities may see this as trivial because of the cost and loss to the owners to which the bread/meat belongs.
 
Crimes such as these depends on the social climate and the law. In the states especially in California this is considered petty theft so long it does not exceed the amount of $500. As you can see in this social climate we have determined what is "petty" and what is not. However to the owner of that one piece of bread it may be a big loss.
 
I have to disagree with S.A. (as I find myself doing) with her attempt to demonize the West (again) in her statement: To try to incorporate them into Western society would be useless. Our societies have lost all sense of morality and what is or isn't lawful.
 
This seems like you're saying the West is incapable of implementing moral laws that are Islamically based. If this is what you are inferring then it is untrue. In my humble, yet, biased opinions frankly our laws and moral code are a lot better than Muslim states. I've had the luxury of looking at various law systems of various countries such as Egypt, syria, Iran, Iraq and quite frankly, I think the United States and UK have great systems of law. Do people find being gased, lethal injection, or electrocuted barbaric? Yes. but not more barbaric then getting your head chopped off in public which is an attempt at humilating the suspect and striking fear in the public. but of course what do I know I'm only a cop right?


Edited by Israfil - 29 May 2008 at 11:04pm
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 29 May 2008 at 11:48pm
Israfil:
 
There are no Islamic states in existence at this time. No government on the face of the earth at this point in time is an Islamic government.
 
As a cop you should know that our legal system does not work. One of the biggest criminals in the U.S. at this time is our president. We do not even have the gumption, for lack of a more colorful word, to impeach the man. But we impeached Bill Clinton for having oral sex... So apparently oral sex is a worse crime than lying, cheating, sending a million people to their death, etc.... If this is not skewered then what is? 
 
As a minority in this country and a cop I am amazed that you find our system of law so great. Most cops I know are thoroughly disgusted with our law system, the revolving doors, the light sentences, the technicalities.  Not to mention the fact that since 1989 DNA tests have exonerated 213 falsely accused prisoners, most of them black. That alone should tell you something is REALLY wrong with our judicial system. But the really sad thing is that most states are still resisting allowing DNA tests to be performed. What possible motivation could there be for refusing these tests that have already proven so many innocent? Frankly I find a system that could falsely imprison a man for 20 or 30 years then refuse to allow him the one test that could prove his innocence to be barbaric.
 
BTW: I speak out against what I find wrong in this country because it is my right as an American and if nobody speaks out then nothing will ever get better. I have always been very politically and socially active and if becoming Muslim has done anything to change this it has perhaps made me more mellow in my reactions.
If you have read any of my other posts I also speak out against things that are wrong in other countries and cultures, I am a multi-cultural/societal complainer. 
 
Ron,
 
Who decides which crime is trivial?  It wasn't very long ago that domestic violence and child abuse were considered trivial crimes in the U.S. and better left to the family to work out.
 
Perhaps you have never been a victim of crime, but I have had my home burglarized and I have been robbed at gun point twice. I did not find any of these incidents trivial and the fact that the first armed robber only got $18.00 does not make the fact that he held a gun on me and threatened to shoot me any more trivial. 
Perhaps to you $18.00 is not very much in the scheme of things, a trivial amount, but it was almost the cost of my life.
 
Do I think these criminals should have their hands amputated? Maybe. Maybe it would be less barbaric to have them stand in fear while some crazy person holds a gun to their head and screams at them to give them more than $18.00 or they will kill them. Then the crazy person can pull the trigger a couple of times on a few empty chambers to see how they will react. 
 
Suit your delicate sensibilities a little better?
 
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 30 May 2008 at 2:46pm
Shasta's Aunt
 
If you know anything about law you know there are 3 branches of government right, each having their respective laws in acocrdance to what actions transgress them. You should be aware that State laws vary from state to state each giving its own account of the severity of crimes that are committed. I never said the system is flawless or perfect, but its better than laws I've personally read from other countries. For instance I find it ridiculous that if you speak out against the Egyptian president openly you risk serving time (I believe minimum is 6 months in jail).  I highly doubt you are a multi-cultural social complainer because most of your post are generated towards the "west" but that is another story. I also thinky uo have little knowledge about law.
 
What you find on the internet and what you see on news does not always count as reality. Of course there are politics in the system such as light sentences, revolving doors etc, but the reality is you cannot change a lot of it. Politics just like systems of government are like pendelums. Looking at pieces of history does not make you right (e.g. looking at William Clinton's marital transgression).  My point is, is that laws look at trivbial crimes based on country, demographic etc.
 
 
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