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Islam for non-Muslims
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2008 at 9:45pm

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Once again I say, if you know the punishment for theft is having your hand cut off and you still steal then you should not be surprised if you have your hand cut off.

But Auntie, thieves are always surprised at being caught -- otherwise they wouldn't steal in the first place!  Just because a punishment would deter you or me doesn't mean it will deter a thief.  You have to understand that thieves don't think like you or me.  That's why they are thieves, and you and I aren't.

You will never entirely eliminate crime, regardless of the consequences, because poor decision-making and disregard of consequences are characteristic of criminal nature.
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2008 at 3:08am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Once again I say, if you know the punishment for theft is having your hand cut off and you still steal then you should not be surprised if you have your hand cut off.

But Auntie, thieves are always surprised at being caught -- otherwise they wouldn't steal in the first place!  Just because a punishment would deter you or me doesn't mean it will deter a thief.  You have to understand that thieves don't think like you or me.  That's why they are thieves, and you and I aren't.

You will never entirely eliminate crime, regardless of the consequences, because poor decision-making and disregard of consequences are characteristic of criminal nature.
 
So are you saying that the criminal should not be punished because they didn't expect to get caught? 
 
Whether they expect to get caught or not does not negate the fact that they know the punishment if they do get caught. If they are willing to take the risk then they should be willing to accept the consequences.
 
I think it is the very fact that you point out, criminals don't think like you or me, that God ordered severe punishments.  If their own conscience and sense of morality will not stop them, then perhaps the spectre of a severe punishment will. If THAT still doesn't work, then they have only received that which they asked for.
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2008 at 3:18am
From what you say, it seem as if the theif is the victim, not the one who is robbed.

It's not either/or.  They are both victims.  It should be obvious, however, which of the victims has been more cruelly victimized."

I don't see how you can seriously believe that the perpetrator of a criminal act and the victim of that criminal act are both victims.
 
 
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2008 at 3:24am

"And yet according to Shasta'sAunt, "During times of famine or if the theft was due to hunger the circumstances were taken into consideration."  In other words, the circumstances you describe are (apparently) the very conditions under which this vicious punishment is not enforced."

Taken into consideration, but not necessarily not enforced. Famine or hunger do not give thieves the right to steal with impunity.

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2008 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

So are you saying that the criminal should not be punished because they didn't expect to get caught?
 
I'm saying that the punishment should be commensurate with the crime, that increasing the punishment to barbaric extremes will not serve any useful purpose, except to promote barbarity.
 
Whether they expect to get caught or not does not negate the fact that they know the punishment if they do get caught. If they are willing to take the risk then they should be willing to accept the consequences.
 
People commit crimes for a whole variety of reasons: alcohol/drugs, "anger management" issues, religious/cultural beliefs, or (probably most often) just plain st**idity.  The common factors in all these conditions are poor decision-making and disregard of consequences.   They are not generally "willing to take the risk".  Most of the time they don't even consider the risk; and if they do, they foolishly judge the risk to be zero.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2008 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

I don't see how you can seriously believe that the perpetrator of a criminal act and the victim of that criminal act are both victims. 
 
We are talking about two separate acts: the crime and the punishment.  Both have perpetrators, and both have victims.
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2008 at 4:49am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

I don't see how you can seriously believe that the perpetrator of a criminal act and the victim of that criminal act are both victims. 
 
We are talking about two separate acts: the crime and the punishment.  Both have perpetrators, and both have victims.
 
There would be no punishment if not for the criminal act, so the perpetrator is actually responsible for both.
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 25 May 2008 at 5:02am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

So are you saying that the criminal should not be punished because they didn't expect to get caught?
 
I'm saying that the punishment should be commensurate with the crime, that increasing the punishment to barbaric extremes will not serve any useful purpose, except to promote barbarity.
 
Whether they expect to get caught or not does not negate the fact that they know the punishment if they do get caught. If they are willing to take the risk then they should be willing to accept the consequences.
 
People commit crimes for a whole variety of reasons: alcohol/drugs, "anger management" issues, religious/cultural beliefs, or (probably most often) just plain st**idity.  The common factors in all these conditions are poor decision-making and disregard of consequences.   They are not generally "willing to take the risk".  Most of the time they don't even consider the risk; and if they do, they foolishly judge the risk to be zero.
 
I do not care why they commit the crime and st**idity is no excuse. If I am living my life in a peaceful, non-violent, following the laws of the land fashion, I have a right to expect not to become a victim of someone who does not want to follow the laws. If I am victimized I have the right to expect the criminal to be punished.
 
Just because there are people who choose to live outside the law and have no regard for their fellow human or societal norms does not mean that I should have to live in fear of being the victim of a crime or that I should feel pity for the perpetrator of criminal acts. They obviously are not feeling any pity for those they perpetrate their crimes upon or they would not be doing the crime.
 
Hey, don't do the crime if you can't do the time, don't do it!!!
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt
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