IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: 18th question about islam

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Saladin
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Posted: 16 May 2008 at 1:56am

Ron,

In an Islamic state, punishment for crimes come only after the paths leading to crimes are closed. eg. A hungry man stealing bread to eat doesnt warrant a punishment. Its the responsibility of the state to have made the man able to feed himself and meet his basic needs.

'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'

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Tariq

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Posted: 16 May 2008 at 4:29am

BISMILLAH HIR RAHMAN NIR RAHIM

After all the issues of do deeds and misdeeds and forgiving them and punishing them it is common to found in every society but how to maintain a society requires some conditions to be met. And i think the war on terror in Iraq and afghanistan is an example for the world although they got nothing from there but still the matter is clear that west wants to stop terrorism and for that purpose they are simply KILLING.

I hope no body minds

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Tariq

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Posted: 16 May 2008 at 4:53am

Assalam ao alaiqum wa rahmatullah

After all the fars and hope from allah , as some follow the right path by fear and some follow with hope, some dont follow at all

But there is one group , community of believers who follows allah and his prophets with love and it is very sooner when they are deprived of feeling and concept of hope and fear they dont care whether theyr friend and love throw them in hell fire or in paradise their only mission and objective i s only Allah and his team of who he loves.

THIS IS ENTIRELY A DIFFERENT THINKING TO THOSE WHO NEVER WANTED TO OBEY ALLAH WITH LOVE BECAUSE THEY ARE AGREED UPON TH UNWORTHY PERISHABLE LIFE OF DUNYA

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 16 May 2008 at 6:09pm

Assalamu alaikum Saladin,

Originally posted by Saladin

In an Islamic state, punishment for crimes come only after the paths leading to crimes are closed. eg. A hungry man stealing bread to eat doesnt warrant a punishment.

Does the Quran say that somewhere?

Its the responsibility of the state to have made the man able to feed himself and meet his basic needs.

And is that in the Quran?

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honeto

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Posted: 17 May 2008 at 4:28pm

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Tariq

The non-Muslim may say, “Chopping off the hands in this 20th century. Islam is a barbaric and ruthless religion!”

That is exactly what I say; and the fact that it may reduce crime does not make it any less barbaric and ruthless. Even without any other evidence, the cruelty throughout the Quran is enough to convince me that it did not come from a loving God.

I would much, much prefer to be robbed on a regular basis than to have a single thief mutilated in this way. Frankly, I am astonished that Islam teaches that possessions are more important than mercy and forgiveness.

Ron,

starange enough that in my study of the Bible, I find your lord giving the same command that you seem to have problem with when a Muslim says it. And Jesus was a Muslim by faith, as he submitted to the will of the "Father" God. 1 John 2:17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

Please read along:

Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 17 May 2008 at 4:29pm

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 18 May 2008 at 11:26am

Hasan, if you can't see the difference between Matthew's clearly figurative comment about cutting of one's own hands, and the Quran's clearly literal punishment of cutting off someone else's hands, then I don't think anything I could say would help you.

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Tariq

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Posted: 18 May 2008 at 3:43pm

WAILAIQUM US SALAM,

The answer for maintaing economical and financial matters of society for every person especially for poor persons, Islam obligated muslims to pay charity that is called zakat which is obligatory to every muslim who has eligibility to pay it , and then second is sadaqa which is also a form of charity which recommend after obligation . If some one wants references so just read first verses of surah baqra chapter 2 of quran and there are several places where quran has emphasized on this matter.

Regarding stealing , so it is stealing but hudood laws or in which cutting of hand has certain conditions first the thing should be cost worthy of atleast 3 dirham and to some scholar it is 10 dirham it is as amount which is calculated according to the ratio of the value of different times.

After that it has other conditions too, which had been mentioned in previous posts.

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 18 May 2008 at 4:48pm

Ten Dirham (UAE) = $2.70 (Canadian) at present exchange rates. I paid more than that last week for a fancy cup of coffee. Tariq, would you really cut off a person's hands for that!?

By the way, can you give me any evidence for these conditions in the Quran? Did these conditions come for Allah, or from men?

Edited by Ron Webb - 18 May 2008 at 4:50pm

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Author	Message
Saladin Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 04 September 2007 Location: Sri Lanka Online Status: Offline Posts: 575	Posted: 16 May 2008 at 1:56am
	Ron, In an Islamic state, punishment for crimes come only after the paths leading to crimes are closed. eg. A hungry man stealing bread to eat doesnt warrant a punishment. Its the responsibility of the state to have made the man able to feed himself and meet his basic needs.
	'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
	IP Logged

Tariq Groupie Joined: 09 May 2008 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 50	Posted: 16 May 2008 at 4:29am
	BISMILLAH HIR RAHMAN NIR RAHIM After all the issues of do deeds and misdeeds and forgiving them and punishing them it is common to found in every society but how to maintain a society requires some conditions to be met. And i think the war on terror in Iraq and afghanistan is an example for the world although they got nothing from there but still the matter is clear that west wants to stop terrorism and for that purpose they are simply KILLING. I hope no body minds
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Tariq Groupie Joined: 09 May 2008 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 50	Posted: 16 May 2008 at 4:53am
	*Assalam ao alaiqum wa rahmatullah* *After all the fars and hope from allah , as some follow the right path by fear and some follow with hope, some dont follow at all* But there is one group , community of believers who follows allah and his prophets with love and it is very sooner when they are deprived of feeling and concept of hope and fear they dont care whether theyr friend and love throw them in hell fire or in paradise their only mission and objective i s only Allah and his team of who he loves. THIS IS ENTIRELY A DIFFERENT THINKING TO THOSE WHO NEVER WANTED TO OBEY ALLAH WITH LOVE BECAUSE THEY ARE AGREED UPON TH UNWORTHY PERISHABLE LIFE OF DUNYA
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1402	Posted: 16 May 2008 at 6:09pm
	Assalamu alaikum Saladin, *Originally posted by Saladin* In an Islamic state, punishment for crimes come only after the paths leading to crimes are closed. eg. A hungry man stealing bread to eat doesnt warrant a punishment. Does the Quran say that somewhere? Its the responsibility of the state to have made the man able to feed himself and meet his basic needs. And is that in the Quran?
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honeto Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2340	Posted: 17 May 2008 at 4:28pm
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* *Originally posted by Tariq* The non-Muslim may say, “Chopping off the hands in this 20th century. Islam is a barbaric and ruthless religion!” That is exactly what I say; and the fact that it may reduce crime does not make it any less barbaric and ruthless. Even without any other evidence, the cruelty throughout the Quran is enough to convince me that it did not come from a loving God. I would much, much prefer to be robbed on a regular basis than to have a single thief mutilated in this way. Frankly, I am astonished that Islam teaches that possessions are more important than mercy and forgiveness. Ron, starange enough that in my study of the Bible, I find your lord giving the same command that you seem to have problem with when a Muslim says it. And Jesus was a Muslim by faith, as he submitted to the will of the "Father" God. 1 John 2:17The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever. Please read along: Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. Hasan Edited by honeto - 17 May 2008 at 4:29pm
	39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1402	Posted: 18 May 2008 at 11:26am
	Hasan, if you can't see the difference between Matthew's clearly figurative comment about cutting of one's own hands, and the Quran's clearly literal punishment of cutting off someone else's hands, then I don't think anything I could say would help you.
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Tariq Groupie Joined: 09 May 2008 Location: Pakistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 50	Posted: 18 May 2008 at 3:43pm
	WAILAIQUM US SALAM, The answer for maintaing economical and financial matters of society for every person especially for poor persons, Islam obligated muslims to pay charity that is called zakat which is obligatory to every muslim who has eligibility to pay it , and then second is sadaqa which is also a form of charity which recommend after obligation . If some one wants references so just read first verses of surah baqra chapter 2 of quran and there are several places where quran has emphasized on this matter. Regarding stealing , so it is stealing but hudood laws or in which cutting of hand has certain conditions first the thing should be cost worthy of atleast 3 dirham and to some scholar it is 10 dirham it is as amount which is calculated according to the ratio of the value of different times. After that it has other conditions too, which had been mentioned in previous posts.
	IP Logged

Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1402	Posted: 18 May 2008 at 4:48pm
	Ten Dirham (UAE) = $2.70 (Canadian) at present exchange rates. I paid more than that last week for a fancy cup of coffee. Tariq, would you really cut off a person's hands for that!? By the way, can you give me any evidence for these conditions in the Quran? Did these conditions come for Allah, or from men? Edited by Ron Webb - 18 May 2008 at 4:50pm
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