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Islam for non-Muslims
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2008 at 9:10pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I was asking whether you, Nausheen, would personally chop off a man's hands if he stole from you.  It's easy to talk about this in the abstract, but it's entirely different when you are faced with the prospect of inflicting such cruelty on a real, living person.
 
Your question is arbitrary because;
A. I am not an islamic state. This law is to be executed in an islamic state.
B. Any individual who lives in an islamic state does not have a right to chop off hands for theft. The mattar needs to be taken to a court, proven, and judgement given by the mufti - judge.
 
Now, if you were to ask if I was living in an islamic state and this had happened to me, what would I have done - will I take this person to the court and see to it that the sentence of chopping his hands is pronounced or not?  ... I don't know what my situation would have been, but at my present situtation, I would say that Islam allows ... eye for an eye, but it also says if you forgive it is better for you. So, ideally speaking I would forgive an individual who might have stollen from me. and forgiven him, with the condition that the authorities see to it he does not repeat.
 
If this guy was caught red handed by the authorities, and that authority happened to me ... then it would have been a different dimension. Because today we are living in times where there are no realy islamic states in the sense that the "the garb of spirituality is not worn by the skeleton of laws" as far as I am informed and Allah knows best. So, if I were to get authority of an islamic state, personally I would have taken my first job as to retrun this "garb" back to the society. After that execute the laws.
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Really?  I thought the Muslim belief is that Abraham and Moses were given the same laws as we find on the Quran, and that any apparent differences are due to human error and corruption.
 
This comment also has two aspects to be understood.
One: There were these real laws sent for Abraham and Moses (peace be upon them), which were not same. These were furhter revised for Muhammad (sallallahu alaihe wasallam).
Two: The laws as they were sent to former prophets, do not exist anymore, they have been poluted by human interception.
 
 
 
 
 
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote Tariq Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2008 at 5:21am
Assalam o aliqum wa rahmatullah,
For your reference the verse which speaks about ans eye for an eye , and so on. Its in Quran in surah maidah chapter 5, vesr 45,
 
 
"And we had obligated upon them(on jews) that a life with a life , and an eye with an eye and a nose with a nose , and a ear with a ear, and a tooth with a tooth and the wounds are QASSAS .And who so ever forgive it so it will be his compensation from his(misdeeds)
Meaning the part of his misdeeds will be finished with that forgiveness.
Qassas as you in arabic it is literally means to do equvalence or euality in a situation
And in terminoly of shariah it means that equal punishment will be given.
 
companion of Prophet abullah in abbas says: Allah is intending to say that we obligated in torah all these laws. (Tafseer kabir of Imam fakhru ud din Alrazi.)
Imam Fakhr ru din Alrazi also states that :You should bear in mind that this was the law and shairiah in Torah and the Jews changed  and tampered this law in their books . So allah has described this law as well as he described it in Torah (old testement)
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2008 at 6:56pm

Originally posted by Nausheen

Now, if you were to ask if I was living in an islamic state and this had happened to me, what would I have done - will I take this person to the court and see to it that the sentence of chopping his hands is pronounced or not?  ... I don't know what my situation would have been, but at my present situtation, I would say that Islam allows ... eye for an eye, but it also says if you forgive it is better for you. So, ideally speaking I would forgive an individual who might have stollen from me. and forgiven him, with the condition that the authorities see to it he does not repeat.

So the State is responsible for catching the thief, and prosecuting the thief, and convicting the thief -- but then the victim has an opportunity to forgive the crime?  And if he doesn't, the State is required to cut off the thief's hands?  And this seems reasonable to you?

It seems pretty arbitrary to me, whether the victim happens to be in a forgiving mood or not.  As far as I can see, you might as well just flip a coin: heads you're scot-free, tails you're butchered.
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2008 at 9:49pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

It seems pretty arbitrary to me, whether the victim happens to be in a forgiving mood or not.  As far as I can see, you might as well just flip a coin: heads you're scot-free, tails you're butchered.
 
We don't come here to appease your understanding of our religion. If you have a question on how things are, we gladly provide an answer if we know.
 
From what you say, it seem as if the theif is the victim, not the one who is robbed.
 
No matter how minor you think robbery is, when God has called it so henious that the perpeterator should have his hands chopped, then it is a very serious matter.  
 
Have you known anyone who is poor, who earns all day just to earn their daily bread ... with no money for even the things we may call a life-line? There are people living in countries where there is no health insurance, nor ample jobs, nor good education, or enough food. If people are robbed there, its not just their wallet (a tiny fraction, with much saved in bank ballences) ... one who is robbed may be robbed off his wage that could bring bread on the table.  - Who knows what dire circumstances one may fall into if s/he is robbed  - but if you think its of little consequence, then that is what you think.  Just that we don't agree.
 
 
 
 
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2008 at 11:30pm

"I'm not talking about murderers, or child molesters, or rapists.  I'm talking about a petty thief, who hurt no one and stole something worth only a few bucks.  I'm saying that the punishment far too extreme for the crime.  And it doesn't help to tell me that such cruelty will eliminate theft.  I don't believe it, for one thing -- most thieves don't expect to get caught -- but even if it were true, I would far rather live in a society rife with petty theft than one which indulges in such barbarity.

Capital punishment was taken very seriously during the time of The Prophet and in subsequent Islamic states. Such punishment was not just arbitrarily meted out.
 
In a true Islamic State there was no reason for theft. The state took care of orphans, widows and those who could not work. It was responsible for the welfare of all of it's citizens, even the non-Muslims.
 
I found this list of conditions on another website and I am sure they are correct, Allah knows best.

1- The thing should have been taken by stealth; if it was not taken by stealth, then the hand should not be cut off, such as when property has been seized by force in front of other people, because in this case the owner of the property could have asked for help to stop the thief. 

2- The stolen property should be something of worth, because that which is of no worth has no sanctity, such as musical instruments, wine and pigs.

2- The value of the stolen property should be above a certain limit, which is three Islamic Dirhams or a quarter of an Islamic Dinar, or their equivalent in other currencies.

3- The stolen property should have been taken from a place where it had been put away, i.e., a place where people usually put their property, such as a cupboard, for example.

4- The theft itself has to be proven, either by the testimony of two qualified witnesses or by the confession of the thief twice.

5- The person from whom the property was stolen has to ask for it back; if he does not, then (the thief’s) hand does not have to be cut off. 

During times of famine or if the theft was due to hunger the circumstances were taken into consideration:

"It was reported to Omar that some boys in the service of Hatib Ibn Abi Balta'a had stolen the she-camel of a man from the tribe of Muznah. When Omar questioned the boys they admitted the theft so he ordered their hands to be cut. But on second thoughts he said, "By God I would cut their hands if I did not know that you employ these boys and starve them so that they would be permitted to eat that which is prohibited unto them".

Then he addressed their employer saying: "By God, since Ihave not cut their hands I am going to penalize you with a fine that shall pain you" and he ordered him to pay double the price of the she- camel".

Barbarism is subjective. As Sister Nausheen pointed out, if you live in a country where the very survival of your children depends on what the thief has taken then what is more barbaric: the thief who has sentenced your child to death with his thievery or the court that orders his hand be cut off?


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 22 May 2008 at 11:30pm
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2008 at 11:35pm
"It seems pretty arbitrary to me, whether the victim happens to be in a forgiving mood or not.  As far as I can see, you might as well just flip a coin: heads you're scot-free, tails you're butchered."
 
Once again I say, if you know the punishment for theft is having your hand cut off and you still steal then you should not be surprised if you have your hand cut off. I would think under the circumstances a forgiving victim might be viewed as a blessing not a flip of the coin.
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2008 at 1:01am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

 
Once again I say, if you know the punishment for theft is having your hand cut off and you still steal then you should not be surprised if you have your hand cut off. I would think under the circumstances a forgiving victim might be viewed as a blessing not a flip of the coin.
 
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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2008 at 9:23pm

Originally posted by Nausheen

We don't come here to appease your understanding of our religion. If you have a question on how things are, we gladly provide an answer if we know.

Actually, I came here to the forum to "appease" my own understanding of Islam, but the answers that have been provided in this discussion are having the opposite effect. 
 

From what you say, it seem as if the theif is the victim, not the one who is robbed.

It's not either/or.  They are both victims.  It should be obvious, however, which of the victims has been more cruelly victimized.

No matter how minor you think robbery is, when God has called it so henious that the perpeterator should have his hands chopped, then it is a very serious matter.

Describing the theft of a cup of coffee as "so heinous that the perpetrator should have his hands choppped off" is ridiculous.  God could not possibly have intended that.  If Muslims believe that, then they are being ridiculous.

Have you known anyone who is poor, who earns all day just to earn their daily bread ... with no money for even the things we may call a life-line? There are people living in countries where there is no health insurance, nor ample jobs, nor good education, or enough food. If people are robbed there, its not just their wallet (a tiny fraction, with much saved in bank ballences) ... one who is robbed may be robbed off his wage that could bring bread on the table.  - Who knows what dire circumstances one may fall into if s/he is robbed  - but if you think its of little consequence, then that is what you think.  Just that we don't agree.

And yet according to Shasta'sAunt, "During times of famine or if the theft was due to hunger the circumstances were taken into consideration."  In other words, the circumstances you describe are (apparently) the very conditions under which this vicious punishment is not enforced.

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