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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2008 at 5:34am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

This is about punishment from God.

Not the way I see it.  If God wants to cut off somebody's hands for a minor crime, then let God do it.  He doesn't need you or me to do His dirty work.  (And please don't try to tell me there's some valuable moral lesson I need to learn from such butchery.)

Why always leave Christianity out?

Because this discussion is not about Christianity, for one thing.  Because it is no defense of Islam to claim that Christianity is no better, for another.  Because Christ never said anything about cutting off body parts.  Because Romans 13:4 is obviously not to be taken literally (nobody uses swords anymore).

 
Christians believe that Jesus is God, therefore anything that God said are the words of Jesus.  God did in fact talk about cutting off body parts.
 
Christians who say that the Old Testament does not count have no grounds to stand upon. They use the OT to prove the prophesy of Jesus, supposedly, but discount anything that they do not like.  If Jesus is God, he is the same God who ordered the nose and ears of the prostitute to be cut off.
 
How can you have a discussion about what you feel are atrocities in religion without taking into account all religion?
 
I don't think sword is what is meant. It is meant that governments and human authority will carry out God's punishments on this earth.  If men do not punish people who do wrong, who will?  Do you think God will smite every person who does something wrong? If that were the case there would be no need for parents, governments, police, a conscience, etc.... We'd all just walk around getting hit by lightening bolts. 
 
And yes, there is a lesson to be learned from punishment. It does not necessarily have to be a moral lesson, just a lesson in common sense. If you see someone commit and crime and they are punished in an unforgettable fashion you are less likely to commit that crime yourself. If there is no punishment for the crime, what deterrent is there? Not much. Just look around at our current society.....
 
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2008 at 6:05am

The Old Testament is not just prophecy of Jesus but history showing us that man needs Jesus.  Specific punishments for specific crimes, at specific times.  Not necessarily to be used today.  

In a Christian, Democratic society there is always hope of rehabilation.  The robber will make something better of himself, if he loses foot and/or hand chances are he will remain a burden.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2008 at 6:46pm

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Christians who say that the Old Testament does not count have no grounds to stand upon. They use the OT to prove the prophesy of Jesus, supposedly, but discount anything that they do not like. If Jesus is God, he is the same God who ordered the nose and ears of the prostitute to be cut off.

Same God, new covenant.  Something that (with no disrespect intended) I wouldn't expect a Muslim to understand, because Islam does not admit the possibility of change.

How can you have a discussion about what you feel are atrocities in religion without taking into account all religion?

But we're not talking about atrocities in religion.  I'm not, anyway.  I'm talking about atrocities in Islam; and I say again, it's no defense of Islam to say that other religions are no better.

And yes, there is a lesson to be learned from punishment. It does not necessarily have to be a moral lesson, just a lesson in common sense. If you see someone commit and crime and they are punished in an unforgettable fashion you are less likely to commit that crime yourself.

This "end justifies the means" stuff is disturbing.  I hope you're not a parent, Auntie.  I'd hate to think what lengths you'd go to, to get them to eat their vegetables.

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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2008 at 11:46pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
Ron, I was not here for quite sometime, thus lost the flow. Could you please rephrase your question to me, as I dont really get your point (if it is relevant to you, i.e)
 
You have asked people for proofs of their posts in the Quran. One thing non-muslims have a hard time understanding is the validity of islamic laws, ie the sharia - and that it is based on rulings in the Quran as well as the hadith. Hadith are recorded incidences of prescribed practices from the life of the prophet sallallahu alaihe wasallam. The preconditions for chopping hands of theifs (and I dont know all of them) is that it is done in an islamic state, and that the state has ensured the living conditions of people is not that they are forced to steal in order to survive. - you can see a miror of this in the sharia ruling where people are allowed to consume even  pork(something unlawful for muslims) if that is the only food available to them and they have to starve to death if they did not consume it. So Islam has laws to purify societies, they are not there merely to ampute people or force them to embrace death ... a concept I dont think one can discuss in this thread.
 
 
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Same God, new covenant.  Something that (with no disrespect intended) I wouldn't expect a Muslim to understand, because Islam does not admit the possibility of change.

This is incorrectly put. If islam did not see the possibility of change, it would have not acknowledged the laws of Abraham and Moses  coming from the same One God who sent down the Mohammadan laws - a transition in laws sent by God.  What Islam does not accept is a "man made change" within religion. We dont follow the laws of Moses, but we follow the laws sent for Muhammad - and we do not accept any change in them made by "people".
 
You have mentioned in yet another post, that stealing is a minor crime. It could have been a minor crime if God said so. If social standards deteriorated such that people were to say molestation is a minor crime ... perhaps following your line of argument one should stoop to accept that as well.
 
 


Edited by Nausheen - 20 May 2008 at 11:49pm
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Shasta'sAunt
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Quote Shasta'sAunt Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2008 at 6:34am
"You have mentioned in yet another post, that stealing is a minor crime. It could have been a minor crime if God said so. If social standards deteriorated such that people were to say molestation is a minor crime ... perhaps following your line of argument one should stoop to accept that as well."
 
In many cases molestation has become a minor crime. No one in Western society is put to death for molestation alone and often times they are given a very light sentence. In some cases, such as the Catholic molestations, only a handful of preists have even been charged, much less been punished.
 
I think what non-Muslims cannot grasp is that we see God's Word as God's Word, whether it was revealed to us 1400 years ago or yesterday. 

"This "end justifies the means" stuff is disturbing.  I hope you're not a parent, Auntie.  I'd hate to think what lengths you'd go to, to get them to eat their vegetables."

God's Laws concerning criminal acts and the subsequent punishment were made very clear in the The Quran and by the Prophet. Muslims alive during the time of the Prophet and subsequent Islamic States knew the laws and the punishment. If you know that you will be executed for murder and you choose to murder anyway then you should not be surprised when you are put to death.
 
Unfortunately today the lines have become ambiguous and fear of punishment no longer stops people from committing crimes because there is no real fear of punishment. But I'm betting if the next sick old man who kidnapped a child, raped them and killed them was publicly castrated then put to death in the same manner in which the child was murdered, the next pervert might think twice...  Disturbing maybe, but not quite as disturbing to me as the poor raped and murdered child.   
 
As for eating veggies, well the punishment is so hideous I can't really write it down...
 


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 21 May 2008 at 6:36am
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2008 at 3:36pm
believer,
I do not think that a society can be Christian and democratic same time. Democratic society makes rules that the majority chooses, for example if a city votes and decides that a strip club to be open, it is decided on the basis of majority OKaying it, even though it is wrong from the religious point of view of a Christian.
We Muslims and Christians are in the same boat, when it comes to be democratic. Democracy is a system that serves the desires of a person and a community. It constantly votes for changes and changes and goes around in a circle, wrong becomes right, and right becomes wrong over and over.
Can you name a true Christian country that is also democratic?
Hasan
 


Edited by honeto - 21 May 2008 at 3:36pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2008 at 4:08pm

Originally posted by Nausheen

Ron, I was not here for quite sometime, thus lost the flow. Could you please rephrase your question to me, as I dont really get your point (if it is relevant to you, i.e)

I was asking whether you, Nausheen, would personally chop off a man's hands if he stole from you.  It's easy to talk about this in the abstract, but it's entirely different when you are faced with the prospect of inflicting such cruelty on a real, living person.

This is incorrectly put. If islam did not see the possibility of change, it would have not acknowledged the laws of Abraham and Moses  coming from the same One God who sent down the Mohammadan laws - a transition in laws sent by God.

Really?  I thought the Muslim belief is that Abraham and Moses were given the same laws as we find on the Quran, and that any apparent differences are due to human error and corruption.

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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 21 May 2008 at 4:37pm

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

God's Laws concerning criminal acts and the subsequent punishment were made very clear in the The Quran and by the Prophet. Muslims alive during the time of the Prophet and subsequent Islamic States knew the laws and the punishment. If you know that you will be executed for murder and you choose to murder anyway then you should not be surprised when you are put to death.

I'm not talking about murderers, or child molesters, or rapists.  I'm talking about a petty thief, who hurt no one and stole something worth only a few bucks.  I'm saying that the punishment far too extreme for the crime.  And it doesn't help to tell me that such cruelty will eliminate theft.  I don't believe it, for one thing -- most thieves don't expect to get caught -- but even if it were true, I would far rather live in a society rife with petty theft than one which indulges in such barbarity.

Both my intellect and my conscience tell me that -- two capacities that I was given directly from God, even more directly than the Quran.  If I cannot trust my own intellect and my own conscience, then with what mental faculties am I supposed to decide that the Quran (and not the Bhagavad Gita or the Tao Te Ching or the Bible, for instance) is the word of God?



Edited by Ron Webb - 21 May 2008 at 4:42pm
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